24bit/88.2khz playback in Windows 7

[whell]

I found this reference on Lindemann's web site in a description of their DAC product. Is this correct?

 

"The 88.2 kHz and 176.4 kHz formats are not supported as standard by the Windows operating systems XP, Vista und 7, which require a kernel driver to be installed."

 

I've not been able to get these files to play in Win 7. I dual boot with Linux Mint, and Linux plays the files just fine. If this is true, it explains a lot, because I thought something was wrong with my Windows set up. I use a Furutech GT40 USB DAC.

 

Thanks for any insight.

 

[whell]

Bump - any thoughts on this?

 

[tubesound]

This article might help: http://mark-dot-net.blogspot.com/2008/06/what-up-with-wasapi.html. I'm using WASAPI in Foobar and the Windows 7 can play 24/88.2 files through V-Link with no problem. For those whose DAC has a TE7022L USB receiver, the 88.2 frequency is not supported.

 

[fmak]

Every card or usb dac/converter I have used supports KS; it is my preferred mode in XP and even in 7 which is sometimes available.

 

WASAPI does not support 32 bit floating point files (which I have) and I have had to set Foobar for 24 bit playback.

 

Your question throws up the issue of lack of transparency in windows (and MAC) audio. Quite ridiculous when loads of money is spent on this activity.

 

[whell]

Thanks for the feedback. I guess I still don't get why playback in win 7 is glitchy. The easy solution I guess is to stick with playback under Linux for now.

 

[fmak]

Can you please explain your Linux setup; I am interested in trying but it must be capable of playing 24/176/192 files well.

 

Thanks

 

[whell]

fmak:

 

First thing to know is that I'm a relative novice with Linux and PC - based audio, so feel free to regard my post against that backdrop. Also, my DAC is limited to a 96khz sample rate. However, if your Linux distribution of choice comes with a Linux kernel that dates from mid-2010 or beyond (which would include most Linux distros), Linux will support playback of files with sample rates up to 384khz.

 

Therefore, playback of hi-res files is limited only to the ability of your DAC. You might also imagine a DAC that interfaces with your PC via proprietary software should be avoided with a Linux set up. Its one of the "drawbacks" of computing in the "open source" world. My USB is a Furutech GT40 DAC. The DAC is plug and play with both Linux and Windows 7.

 

My laptop is nothing fancy - an Acer 5736Z. Is has only USB (3) and HDMI (1) connections, so I'm accessing my music via a Seagate Go-Flex external USB drive and playback through a USB DAC. Supposedly, a USB hard drive and USB DAC combo is a no-no, but it sounds great to me.

 

I chose Linux Mint for my Linux distro, through frankly any number of distros would have worked out. Due to its orientation for Linux newbies - though it is also well suited for advanced users - Linux Mint and Mepis Linux were the two final candidates in my search for the right a Linux OS for my needs. At the end of the day, I picked Mint because of a personal preference for the Gnome user interface. There's also a bit more software that integrates well / easily with Gnome due to the ubiquity of Ubuntu.

 

Generally speaking, the selection of playback software in Linux doesn't matter quite as much with the default set up. That's because most versions of Linux come with a single back-end processing engine that handles the conversion and output of the signal. Therefore, the software is simply an interface that allows the selection of the media files that the back-end will process. As long as the back-end processing sounds good to your ears, then the playback software is simply a matter of personal taste. Linux Mint comes with a pretty full featured music player by default: Rhythmbox.

 

I prefer the interface of this particular program, but again, its more about personal preference:

 

http://guayadeque.org/forums/index.php?p=/wiki/page/Home

 

Hope this helps answer your questions.

 

 

 

[mitchco]

I use the ASIO driver supplied with my Lynx L22 sound card which takes the Windows OS out of the playback equation.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Stream_Input/Output

 

 

 

 

[whell]

I've tried the ASIO4ALL software with limited success. It worked OK sometimes with Foobar2000 (and sometimes not) but I couldn't get it to work at all with a trial version of J River.

 

[Miska]

WASAPI does not support 32 bit floating point files (which I have) and I have had to set Foobar for 24 bit playback.

 

I don't have any problems playing back 32-bit float files (nor with 88.2 or 176.4 kHz). WASAPI Exclusive can support 32-bit float playback if the hardware supports it.

 

 

[fmak]

Foobar? or yours?

 

Every Win 7 PC I have used with hardware that plays 32 bit float files on KS works only when Foobar playback is set to 24 bits.

 

[Miska]

Foobar? or yours?

 

Mine, I've never used Foobar so I cannot comment about that one.

 

with hardware that plays 32 bit float files on KS

 

I think I know only one pro-card that supports floats, every other hardware I know supports only integers. (And I don't know any DAC chip that would support floats.)

 

But from my point of view, there's no relation between what the file contains and what the hardware supports.

 

 

[mitchco]

re: ASIO4ALL. Interesting. I use JRiver (MC 16) too, but my Lynx L22 sound card comes with it's own ASIO driver and I have never had any issues...

 

[fmak]

to my earlier comment about the lack of clarity and transparency about what audio in computers is doing.

 

Your comment sounded like a generalised one. Clearly it is notas I specifically was posting about Foobar.

 

There are also all kinds of anonmaly with motherboard audio in which 32 bit files won't play and where 88.2/176.4k sample rates are not supported in WASAPI. This happens with Realtek drivers and chips. However, the drivers that come with ATI graphics cards don't have this issue and wqorks well with the same chips!

 

[Miska]

"The 88.2 kHz and 176.4 kHz formats are not supported as standard by the Windows operating systems XP, Vista und 7, which require a kernel driver to be installed."

 

This is not true, just that 88.2 and 176.4 are not supported as Windows kernel mixer/rate converter output rates. Then it depends on used player software and settings if the Windows core audio is used.

 

There are also all kinds of anonmaly with motherboard audio in which 32 bit files won't play and where 88.2/176.4k sample rates are not supported in WASAPI.

 

If one piece of software has some limitations, it doesn't necessarily mean that other software, Windows, drivers or the hardware would have same limitations or anomalies.

 

There are two kinds of 32-bit files, floating point and integer. Whether these files play depends on the player, not on the hardware.

 

WASAPI Shared mode supports 32-bit float (and 88.2/176.4k) for every hardware. WASAPI Exclusive mode supports what ever the underlying hardware or drivers support, including DD/DTS.

 

This happens with Realtek drivers and chips. However, the drivers that come with ATI graphics cards don't have this issue and wqorks well with the same chips!

 

I don't see how these are related. Different piece of hardware, different capabilities. Even with the same chipset, the hardware codec chip (doing A/D and D/A conversions) may have rate limitations while HDMI connected to the same chipset doesn't because it has different clocking mechanism.

 

 

[fmak]

making generalised statements w/o having gone into the workings of Foobar or Realtek which I gather you don't use.

 

This may also be why some here have trouble with your software which I find confusing in use.

 

You should stick to how your playuer works and not extend what you do to what happens in other players until you have done an analysis.

 

I say this beacuse statements like the ones you have made just add to the lack of clarity in Windows audio.

 

[Miska]

Since the subject says "24bit/88.2khz playback in Windows 7" I can say that there's absolutely no problem playing back 24-bit 88.2 kHz on Windows 7 through WASAPI Exclusive with any good piece of hardware and software. Same goes for 176.4 kHz. Natively, no conversion needed.

 

making generalised statements w/o having gone into the workings of Foobar or Realtek which I gather you don't use.

 

No, you are making generalized statements based on what Foobar can do on a certain hardware. There's no problem stating that Foobar can do X on Realtek hardware. But generalizing that X cannot be done on Realtek hardware in general is wrong.

 

What is even more wrong is to state that WASAPI in general cannot do X, because Foobar+Realtek combination fails to do X. What annoys me is generalization towards WASAPI based on those.

 

I do have bunch of different pieces of hardware with different Realtek chips. No trouble playing 32-bit files (unrelated). Some of those don't support 88.2 or 176.4, but that's not a problem for me at all, since I can still play everything converted to 192 kHz on-the-fly.

 

This may also be why some here have trouble with your software which I find confusing in use.

 

Maybe because it takes completely different approach than other players. On purpose.

 

No, it is not trying to be like every other player. It has it's own philosophy and use paradigms. If you want to learn how it works, forget how other software players work and start with a fresh mind set and read the manual.

 

For example think that the library is set of albums (CDs), not files. You can virtual load any of these albums for playback, just like you would load CD into player. Try loading five tracks from five different CD's into traditional CD player at once (now playlist mode supports this, but it is not how I personally use the player).

 

If you don't like the concept or the sound, you don't have to use it. Very simple.

 

You should stick to how your playuer works and not extend what you do to what happens in other players until you have done an analysis.

 

Or you could stick to how Foobar works and not extend it to what some other players do.

 

If any of the other players is not constrained to limitation X, then the limitation cannot be generalized. At most, you can state that "most" players are constrained if it exceeds 50%.

 

I say this beacuse statements like the ones you have made just add to the lack of clarity in Windows audio.

 

No, I think that it is very much clarity that you can play any kind of file with any kind of hardware at best possible quality without having to worry about internals of the file or the hardware.

 

But if you want to bring WASAPI into picture, you have to acknowledge that it has two different modes with two different properties. And that in other of these modes it can support anything the underlying hardware+driver combination can do. While the other of the two modes has certain limitations on output rates, but not on input rates or bit depths.

 

So if you want to go to details, stick to all the details and don't try to generalize. With all the details involved you loose that "clarity", because it becomes complex.

 

 

[fmak]

to try to assert your 'superior' knowledge and deny others' posts with statements of fact.

 

This kind of testosterone fuelled post does not help your case for your products.

 

I shall not further respond.

 

[Miska]

to try to assert your 'superior' knowledge and deny others' posts with statements of fact

 

Well, at least I've written software using WASAPI APIs and I know what is possible and what is not with those. I could post logs showing that for example M2Tech hiFace doesn't have any problems supporting 88.2/24 and 176.4/24 with WASAPI Exclusive. Or the same for various PCI/PCIe cards. Even DSD (2822.4/1) works over WASAPI Exclusive in bunch of different ways.

 

This kind of testosterone fuelled post does not help your case for your products.

 

Oh, too bad...

 

[whell]

"Since the subject says "24bit/88.2khz playback in Windows 7" I can say that there's absolutely no problem playing back 24-bit 88.2 kHz on Windows 7 through WASAPI Exclusive with any good piece of hardware and software. Same goes for 176.4 kHz. Natively, no conversion needed."

 

I've been trying to get the 24/88.2 files to play with foobar using WASAPI exclusive with no luck. Last night, just for kicks, I switched output from WASAPI to DirectSound, and the 88.2 files played just fine. Now I'm scratching my head.

 

[Miska]

At least Realtek ALC889 supports 88.2/176.4 for all ADC and DAC channels, for S/PDIF only 88.2 but not 176.4:

http://www.realtek.com/products/productsView.aspx?Langid=1&PFid=28&Level=5&Conn=4&ProdID=173

 

 

[Miska]

I've been trying to get the 24/88.2 files to play with foobar using WASAPI exclusive with no luck.

 

Maybe your hardware or the driver doesn't support 88.2 kHz?

 

I switched output from WASAPI to DirectSound, and the 88.2 files played just fine

 

DirectSound shouldn't be confused with direct as used in audio. Direct-prefix should be thought more like a trademark indicator. There's DirectMusic, Direct3D, DirectSound3D, etc etc.

 

DirectSound is one of the least direct audio interface in Windows Vista and 7, and goes through the Windows Audio Engine (aka kernel mixer) which performs sample rate and sample format conversions. It is considered legacy API and supported through emulation.

 

See following architecture diagram by Microsoft, and especially take note of WASAPI and Exclusive vs Shared mode.

 

 

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[PeterSt]

WASAPI does not support 32 bit floating point files (which I have) and I have had to set Foobar for 24 bit playback.

 

Your question throws up the issue of lack of transparency in windows (and MAC) audio. Quite ridiculous when loads of money is spent on this activity.

 

Let's say that some is about a lack of transparency and some is about some things harder to get, and for some it is harder to get.

 

Is this enough for AA attitude ? I hope so. :-)

 

I do not support 32bit float files. But *if* I would, the first thing I'd do is convert to 32 bit integer (which as a matter of fact is just driver addressing in this case). Anyway, what you would see is that 32 bit integer would come out, or 24 bit when your hardware won't swallow 32 bits. Don't ask me *how* you would see this, but if you can, you would see just that (Pro driver's control panels may).

 

This is totally unrelated to WASAPI being able to do this. It is me, the player.

In Foobar no difference, although it works a few tads less transparent in there (so now blame Windows for it ?). It is you who has to decide, and now it may not work.

 

Ok, by now I already have the same "difficulties" as Miska - explaining it. But let me try it this way :

 

WASAPI actually is sh*t all over, because the developer (me, Miska, other Peter) has to do everything (really everything) when it is about Exclusive Mode. This is different with Shared Mode, because all is dealt with by Windows. So, stuff in X and Y comes out because Y only *can* come out. What is *can* ? well, what you set yourself in the Device's properties (the output sample rate for Shared Mode, not that *that* is a transparent thing !).

 

When your device does not support Y, you denote Z and Z comes out. Remember, Shared Mode. If you now hop over to Exclusive Mode, you can still try to put out Y, but now suddenly things don't work. Why ? well, Y is not supported in your case and ... I (developer) am not able to divert this to Z. The only thing I can do is let Windows do it for me, which means Shared Mode again.

In between lines : this is how players easily allow non-bitperfect, because Shared Mode can take over, and X (meant to come out as Y) is converted to Z and not bit perfect now.

 

The situation of 88.2/176.2 not being able to play, is a kind of the other way around. I want 88.2 to come out, use (a player with) Shared Mode, but all what comes out is ... what you set in those same properties I mentioned before (output rate for Shared Mode). And what did I denote there ? well, not 88.2 or 176.4, because it is no option (totally stupid it is not, but blame Bill, or actuallly AmirM). So I denoted e.g. 192. And thus my desired 88.2 comes out as 192.

 

When I like the 88.2 to come out as intended (bit perfect and all), I MUST use Exclusive Mode, because that can do all (97.2 of you want). Great. But *now* suddenly all can turn against you, which is when the device does not support it. And now - back to square 1 - I (the player/developer) can not help you because no means exist to select another (re)sample rate on ad-hoc basis. All I can do is select Shared Mode and let come out whatever you set in those properties (of course many months back and you forgot).

 

Now think further. I do not allow Shared Mode ever. I think Miska does not either, and I know other Peter does not. This means that your device will nicely never play in such a player, when the sample rate is not supported by the hardware.

Or that 32 float for the matter. Same story.

(32 bit float is not really the same, because as said, it can be converted to integer on the spot (in-player), and there is no reason not to do it -> you'll loose nothing).

 

Now let's add some hot sause; it may look additionally confusing, but the merits of it hopefully tell all;

In XXHighEnd (but no difference for HQPlayer etc.), I can play 352.8, 384, 705.6 and 768. Remember, "we" allow for Exclusive Mode only. This is exactly why it can work, because as said, Exclusive Mode can do all "we" want. In Shared Mode this will never work, because there's no option for those settings in the device properties. If your player allows for it in Shared Mode, all you'd get is what you selected there (don't ask me whether Windows will downconvert from those higher rates; maybe not, I never tried).

 

Kernel Streaming is not much different from WASAPI Exlusive Mode, and in the end is what it is all about under the hood (let's call it WDM). But *now* suddenly other parts play a role, and we call that drivers. What they allow for WASAPI may not be allowed for KS - and the other way around. Early HiFace drivers are the example of the latter, while Lynx is an example of the former in their latest drivers. So, this confuses too but will come somewhat more direct to you, because you just can't select the driver ("device") for the rate you want (if there at all).

 

Now see ? I tried my best. I don't think it will have become way much more clear, and for many possibly just not. But still this *is* how it works, and I think I can tell you I know ...

 

Peter

 

 

[fmak]

''(32 bit float is not really the same, because as said, it can be converted to integer on the spot (in-player), and there is no reason not to do it -> you'll loose nothing).''

 

What programs are available to convert 32 bit float to integer (not real time)?