Burson DA-160

[bhobba]

Hi Guys

 

My Burson DA-160 has arrived and I had a quick listen with another guy. First up was with the Off-Ramp. Very good - just a touch of warmth to my ears compared to the Burson HA-160D. But it was thought a lot of the performance was from the Off-Ramp so we tried it via its USB. Surprise surprise - it was actually better which left both of us scratching out heads. So we went back to using the Off-Ramp but this time with no upsampling. Yes it was better than upsampled - but we didn't have time to check if it was better than USB. I now have it in my system and will give further impressions as my listening progresses.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

[bhobba]

Hi Guys

 

Good and bad news. First the bad news - the USB input has packed it in - only the left channel is working - SPDIF still works fine. I took it to the dealer I got it from who verified it and immediately sent an Email to Burson. Now what I want to do is keep it until they send a replacement and use it via SPDIF - to that end I have it in my system right now running off the Off-Ramp. My dealer however thinks they will want it sent to them to fix in their own sweet time. Reviewers generally get the royal treatment so its often hard to know from their reviews exactly how your average yobbo like me will be treated - so this will be a good test IMHO.

 

Ok the sound through the SPDIF and Offramp direct connected to my Patek amp using Pure Music. Well from my recollection of how the USB sounded for the short time it did work I think it is better despite the initial impression the USB may have had the edge. Certainly the slight 'warmth' I detected is absent. This thing has the slight metallic-steely twang I associate with SS - you know its SS for sure. No valve warmth here. This is rather interesting as my short time with the HA-160D showed a significant amount of warmth to my ears. When I played it initially on another system via USB I could detect a slight trace of warmth. Now on my system using the Off-Ramp - its gone - at least to my ears anyway. Burson are SS specialists and claim they designed this as the quintessential SS output stage design. Guess what - to me that's exactly how it sounds. Not SS apeing valves but SS pure and simple. This is direct connected to my amp. I will give it a go through the Truth pre amp a bit later.

 

I have done a direct comparison to the JK Saber. Both bass and detail seem better but it does not seem to be as in control somehow - it does not seem to flow as easily - sort of more in your face. Right now I would have to call it pretty close overall. I am not however going to say anything definite because I do not know how much the Off-Ramp is lifting performance. However purely because I do not like leaving things up in the air I will give the JK the edge but reserve my final opinion until later.

 

More to come later as I listen more and others get a chance for others to have to have a listen and see what they think.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

 

[cbutch]

"However purely because I do not like leaving things up in the air I will give the JK the edge but reserve my final opinion until later."

 

In the Off-Ramp thread I thought you said the Off-Ramp/Burson combo was dramatically superior didn't you, or is this a different setup you're comparing?

 

Anyway, it's pretty amazing that the JKDAC is anywhere near this combo isn't it considering the prices difference? I'm certainly happy with mine so far. Thanks for the recommendation.

 

Chris

 

[bhobba]

Hi Chris.

 

No mate that was the Off-Ramp WFS combo that was dramatically better than the WFS by itself and had the edge over the JK Saber - an edge - not dramatically superior which makes the JK very good value.

 

Interestingly my initial impression comparing the USB of the Burson (before it went kaput) was it may have been a bit better than it upsampled into the Off-Ramp Burson combo. I have now been doing closer listening to the Off-Ramp Burson combo and my provisional reaction is the JK Saber may have the edge.

 

Either way it reinforces my view that the JK is the best value DAC of those I have in my top echelon DAC's. I am not saying the JK Saber is my personal preference as a DAC because personally I am rather ho hum towards Saber based DAC's but I try to put that to one side when evaluating stuff.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

[cbutch]

Bill,

 

Yes I believe it to be good value for money also although I've not carried out anything like the level of comparison that you have. It is certainly a step up from my Gatorised Beresford DAC (which is itself good value for money). Not that I'm a cheapskate or anything. Detail is greatly improved and instruments are more fixed in the soundstage.

 

I was looking at the JKDAC as a stepping stone to a Burson level DAC as I believed it to be superior (based on reviews such as the 6moons one). They certainly have something of a following. Interesting that you feel it is not so.

 

Chris

 

 

[bhobba]

Hi Chris

 

That infamous review of the Burson HA-160D is way off the mark in giving the impression that DAC is scary close to the best out there at any price. It isn't. Its a good DAC and with its features is quite possibly the best value in its price range. But as you go up the price ladder you will reap rich rewards. For example my PDX simply blows it away - as it does the JK Saber, Base Tranquillity, and the Burson being discussed here. The Tranquillity SE is not blown away but is still beaten - especially by the versions of the PDX that have very expensive stuff in it like Duelund VSF Copper capacitors. In that comparison (ie with the Tranquillity SE) the usual comment is I could live with that DAC after hearing the PDX - but not the others. I also have to say the PDX is basically a hand built DAC, built really as a labour of love by the people involved and is more expensive that the Tranquillity SE, and indeed the other DAC's as well, so none of this is surprising really. The quality of parts used in the PDX such as Duelund capacitors would never be found in any sanely priced product you could get from the big companies because of the overheads they have. This is why the only real competition to DAC's like the Killer and PDX is uber expensive stuff such as MSB and DCS. In comparisons to that stuff it is a much more even contest and the usual outcome is some kind of tie - the Killer and PDX being considered more musical - the other stuff more analytical.

 

If you want to save up for something better than the JK - and I mean significantly better - go for a Killer or PDX:

http://killerdac.com/forum/

http://www.lenehanaudio.com.au/pdx.php

 

Of course even more expensive stuff like MSB and DCS will best the JK Saber by a wide margin as well but as I said comparisons of those to the Killer and PDX have been done (sometime not direct - but no need it go into the detail here) and the outcome is, usually, its a personal preference thing. But do you really want to pay that sort of money for something that is simply different? For example I know of a comparison that was done with a DAC that was a precursor to the PDX (it is called the Conner24 and actually is still available but the PDX is significantly better than that DAC - IMHO anyway - the maker may have a different view) and here is what the guy said:

'I’ve spent time with a full DCS stack and I can tell you the Connor24 smacks it down simple as that. The 24 is a DCS stack with a velvet glove. If the Kdac is Frank Sinatra the NM24 is Tom Jones !! It’s bass has articulation and snap that is SOTA , pace rythym and timing were no 1 on the day. Although in the end run sounded just a poofteenth caricatured in presentation compared to the Kdac.'

 

I had as chance to discuss this with the person involved and smacks it down is a bit harsh - its really a personal preference sort of thing - the DCS is simply unbelievably detailed, quick and refined - very very impressive in a Hi Fi sense - but not as sweet or musically satisfying. So really its what you like - but if you like the DCS be prepared to spend a lot more.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

[bhobba]

I have now connected it to the Truth Pre-Amp and the SS sound has been toned down a touch to my ears and I think it sounds better - but of course its probably a personal preference thing. After posting this will sojourn to my listening room for some further listening/investigations.

 

Burson got back to my dealer saying it cant be the USB you must be doing something wrong. He is going to pass the Email onto me and I will probably have to go through their hoops before they acknowledge there is a fault. As I said its will be interesting to see how your typical yobbo gets treated.

 

I have a DAC shoot-out on the 20th and rest assured the Burson will be here for that. Afterwards I may have to send it to them for repairs - although my preferred option is for them to replace it with a new one.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

[bhobba]

I have been doing some more listening. I have been comparing it to the base Tranquility and John Kenny Saber because they are about the same price. I found even with the Offramp it to my ears did not sound as good as the the Tranquility or JK. Bear in mind however the Burson has more inputs than just USB and like the JK allows direct connection to an amp. The Burson, as mentioned previously, has a definite SS feel to it and it certainly flowed in a very natural way if that type of sound is your bag. However surprisingly the Tranquility had even better detail and a very analogue sound. The bass is the usual achilles heel with the Tranquility but I couldn't detect it was worse than the Burson. The JK had a dry sound but better bass and detail than either. My speakers are anything but dry and the JK sounded quite good with them - but on some dry speakers an acquaintance borrowed to check it out the dryness added up and it sounded not good at all. But in my setup I would have to give the JK the edge over the other DAC's. Another person complained the JK distorted instruments but I couldn't detect that. On my favorite test track - Dianna Krall - A Case Of You - the piano sounded natural to me on all three DAC's.

 

I have a friend coming Friday who has a good ear and we will redo the comparison.

 

I am also having a DAC shootout Saturday week and will see how it fares in that.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

 

[Naggots]

Interesting findings.....My JK has settled in well and is really sounding good.....I hope my setup is far from dry with Tubed Pre and triode/UL switchable EL84 amps. I found the mids to be more detailed and less congested than before and treble is softer and not harsh......maybe a result of less jitter due to the JK. I am used to listening in triode but found it better with UL now???

 

I found the Mac Mini/Lion/Bitperfect to be a major leap forward sonically from the 170 itransport/ iPod combo, plus you have all the benefits of TV/Computer streaming.

 

[bhobba]

Hi Guys

 

First my dealer contacted me and they will be replacing the Burson. A+ to Burson for correcting faults.

 

Have the Burson direct connected to my Patek and am using Pure Music. Just finished listening to some Roy Orbison and have now switched to Rebecca Pidgeon Hi Res Retrospectives. When fed with the Offramp it really does flow in a beautiful and natural way and does not have the dryness of the John Kenny Saber.

 

Have completed a listening session against the WFS DAC2 fed by its USB and the Offramp. Via the USB the WFS DAC2 is soundly beaten. I preferred the WFS to the 160D I had for a short time due to its increased detail but for sure I find the natural flow of the Burson better than the increased detail of the WFS with its glare, coldness and sibilance - no contest to my ears. But feed the WFS with the Offramp - Wow Wow - afraid the Burson is beaten. The detail and bass is staggering - I have not heard anything to touch it. It does not flow like the Burson - in fact its very in your face - but the coldness, glare and sibilance if not gone is reduced considerably. Do you want to relax into your music - then the Burson is the go - but the Trainquility is probably better at it - but does require a pre-amp and is USB only. But do you want something to excite you and whack you in the face - get the WFS and feed it with the Offramp - amazing. Its not dry like the JK Saber either.

 

Ok I am starting to form a few preliminary views of the DAC's in this price range - the Burson, the WFS, the JK Saber, and Tranquility. Forget about the WFS fed by its USB. If you like a free flowing easy to listen to presentation devoid of any trace of nastiness and would like to save money by direct connecting to your amp then the Burson is the go - it is not the last word in detail though - good - but other DAC's are better. If you like an analogue like sound with good detail close to the best out there (but beatable) and are willing to get a pre amp and only use USB - then the Tranquility is for you. Do you want a very neutral DAC and don't mind a slight trace of dryness (do not try it on dry bright speakers - it will not work well) that has close to the best possible detail and bass - get the John Kenny Saber. But if you want an excitement machine, really in your face with the best bass and detail I have heard the WFS fed by the Offramp will really fit the bill. But I have to say that will cost you $2700.00 and for that price you can get a PDX with built in pre amp that will blow any of those DAC's away. But that $2700 could be reduced considerably to about $1500 by using an Audiopehlo 2 or JK Hiface Mark 3 - but may not scale the heights the Offramp with Turboclocks does.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

 

[bhobba]

Hi Guys

 

I will be fooked - I will be fooked. I had checked all sorts of stuff to correct my one channel issue but didn't check the Midi. A guy on another forum posted he had the same fault but fixed it by changing the Midi settings. Well I checked it and that was the problem. Thanked the guy for posting that - now fixed and I can compare the USB to the Off-Ramp.

 

Now the thing is why has it occurred in the first place on three separate machines including the person that posted the solution and why did it work for a little while on the first machine I tried it on. Anyone got any ideas about that?

 

Thanks

Bill

 

[kyrill]

Hi Bill

 

As the Burson HD-160D needed appr 200 hrs playing time to be "musical" within its own range, how much hrs have you had on yr Burson's reviews?

 

 

And how can you recommend the Burson directly into a poweramp as this Burson has no volume control?

 

And lastly how is this Burson in your ears compared to the HD-160D (with headamp), I saw yr remarks bt could not detect which one is thebetter sounding in yr rig?

Cheers

Kyrill

 

[ted_b]

Using a substandard spdif cable rather than your reference one, and once changed the Burson reached new levels. Can you describe the new height; is it still lagging behind the W4S/Offramp?

 

[bhobba]

I was with a friend today and checked it out on two systems - mine and an acquaintances reference system.

 

The Burson is brand new - of course no real time on it - in fact its been out for such a short time it is doubtful anyone's Burson will have a significant time on it. I will keep everyone updated as its breakin progresses.

 

The volume of the Burson was adjusted by connecting it direct to the amps via the low gain setting which into the amps that were used is actually just a bit above our ususal listening level and using the dithered volume control of Pure Music or Fidelia. It is utterly transparent.

 

I accidentally had the crappy cable on both the Burson and WFS. Thats corrected now and the following comments are based on that.

 

Via its USB the Burson has the warmth I noticed in the 160D. It was nice but once you connected the off ramp the warmth - gone - in fact it sounded slightly bright. Detail a lot better - it was thought via the USB it was a bit indistinct and slurry. Its really is chalk and cheese. But it came at a price - sibilance also greater. However it is definitely a SS sound and how much you like it depends on how much you like an obvious SS sound. Personally it was not my bag nor was it the bag of the others present.

 

The one that really impressed us was the WFS DAC2 via the Off-Ramp - its so good in fact it right up there with the PDX - but different. IMHO it is a better choice than the Burson. IMHO the WFS was clean, clear, pure and extremely detailed but still with a slight sibilance issue. It was very in you face. The PDX was more natural and real sounding and to my ears with less detail - but opinions on that varied. No sibilance problems at all with the PDX. I preferred the PDX but not by a huge margin - however, while it was not considered chalk and cheese others preferred the PDX by a bigger margin. My friend however preferred the WFS. Everyone however wants to hear the Off-ramp into the PDX. The difference between the JK Saber which also uses a modified M2Tech and WFS via the Off-Ramp (the WFS is much better) suggests the PDX will be lifted considerably. But we will see.

 

The DA160 is better than the 160D IMHO. The USB of the Burson is better than the USB on the WFS but for some reason, while both are in a different league the WFS seems to benefit a lot more and was preferred by everone by a good margin. This is very surprising as everyone who heard it has been very critical of the WFS. But it now looks like its real problem is the jitter it is fed - the inherent jitter rejection of the Saber is not as good as it is touted IMHO

 

Thanks

Bill

 

 

[shum3s]

Iv'e had the Burson for almost a month, and I am really excited about the musical enjoyment it has given me in my system. I have over 250 hours on it, which I wish Bill would have allowed the Burson to break in before making a judgment. The Burson is so good to my hears that it replace a 4'500 preamp that is touted as one of the real good pre out there. (which I sold) The Burson also replaced a very popular dac ( which I will not mention) . All this to say that the Burson sounds very analogue no hint that it sounds like solid state ( what ever that means) I have a very reviling system in a heavily treated room.The sound stage is very deep,wide and detailed. The bass is rock solid with little over hang. The musical presentation sounds real with no listener fatigue, I could not be happier. I am using the USB which sounds better than going through the HiFace and the Halide Bridge.

 

Two things drew me to this product, 6 moon review and the analoug volume control, I prefer that over a digital one. The Burson is built like a tank and looks great. In the next couple of weeks I will be doing a shoot out aginst the WFS Dac2 at a friends house and then I will see if Bill's observations are similar to mine. Sam

 

 

 

 

[Mick3]

It's great that bhobba keeps us updated on the Burson Dac, but giving lots of IMHOs are pointless until the thing has a few hundred hours on it.

 

 

[bhobba]

I am scratching my head about peoples concern regarding the break-in issue. If you bleive it will improve significantly with break-in and anything I say now is suspect - no problem - simply ignore what I say. I believe in getting the information out there so people know exactly what listening shows.

 

The 6 Moons write up of the 160D was IMHO (yes I will say that every now and then to emphasise the subjective nature of this stuff) way off the mark in suggesting it was up there with much more expensive equipment and I want to ensure people know others that have heard it and compared it to other stuff do not agree. To anyone who reads this feel free to ignore or take it on board - its entirely up to you.

 

I remember when I started posting about the WFS people were saying stuff like I bet if the 6 Moons reviewer heard it (Srajan Ebaen) they would have a different opinion etc etc. I however stuck to my guns because everyone that heard my WFS has exactly the same view and I considered that very important to get out there. A few weeks ago I demoed the WFS again and the guy simply could not listen to it - everything I wrote about it was only too obvious. I copped a lot of flak because of it but stand by what I have said. It is only with the Off-Ramp the WFS sounds good to my ears and it has tons of hours on it. Yes it changed with burn-in - but was never any good to my and others ears via the USB or fed with ordinary sources.

 

I am organising a DAC shoot-out with all these DAC and others such as the Tranquillity Saturday and we will see what that shows.

 

SS sound is typical of what you hear out of SS equipment - its mechanical, slightly steely and definitely not euphonic. Valve gear, properly designed, can be just as transparent but sound more 'natural'. The conjecture is it is the odd order harmonics that gives the SS gear its sound (SS designs tend to have a higher proportion of those) and the even order harmonics valve gear tends to have that gives it its sound. That's just my take on it, and I wont enter into a long meandering discussion on such things that have been done to death many times elsewhere.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

[kyrill]

hi Bill

 

I consider changed sound after break in completely detached from the value of your needed and worthfull "reviews"

 

But, if we may believe Immanuel Kant: "If we add to the concept of the subject of a judgment the limitation under which the judgment is made, the judgment is then unconditionally valid." CPR p.073

 

So in a review you should not actually compare broken in and fully not broken in equipment and compare them without stating the limitations. This would suggest that the conditions of the to be reviewed equipment is identical, which it is not. So changing literally nothing to your wonderful reviews only adding the conditions (limitations) under which the objects are reviewed, will make yr statements "unconditionally valid."

 

The more limitations" are mentioned, the more the review becomes unconditionally valid.

Kyrill

 

[Face]

I've heard the W4S DAC-2 in 6+ rigs and would not consider it "in your face". There must be something in the water down in Aussie land.

 

[ted_b]

but i find that to be true for many Sabre-based DACs (not all). It's not a bad thing, per se, just a bit aggressive if the rest of your system is also "hot" or forward-leaning.

 

Interesting the Offramp findings with it, though, as some would say the same thing for Steve Nugent's products...a bit of a forward perspective. But it's all about synergy I guess. I'd never have guessed my Antelope-Modwright KWA 150 monoblock combo would balance so "organically" (my stupid word for describing just barely enough woodiness, wet, yet breath of life, air, detail and dynamics), but it does.

 

[bhobba]

Or perhaps you were not feeding it correctly which means there must be something in your water preventing you from doing that.

 

I too have heard it in a few rigs and it is only really in your face with the Empirical Audio. Its an entirely different animal without that.

 

By in your face I mean detail clearly defined right in front of you with for want of a better word 'snap'. In fact you could clearly hear that quality with the snapping of the fingers in Sammy Davis Jr's Bye Bye Blackbird. I was with a friend when we heard it and simply looked at each other in amazement. The PDX for example also has top notch detail retrieval but you have to think about it a bit - sort of more relaxed natural and refined - no thinking with the WFS and Off-Ramp combo.

 

Out of curiosity I went and listened to the Burson I have in my rig at the moment. On Bye Bye Blackbird - nice - but not as good as the WFS with the Off-Ramp.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

 

 

[Fork]

I've been using the Burson and Wyred since they were released. I sell the Burson units, so pardon my bias. These units both produce amazing performance and have completely different character and I don't think standing them up against each other is the way to look at it.

 

The Burson is full and analog and the Wyred is airy and detailed. For the money, you can't beat either of these, but that doesn't mean both will work equally well in your system. I would choose based on what I'm going for and which one will have the best synergy with the rest of my system.

 

As for the Wyred, it doesn't have glare with USB. Biased again as the designer/retailer of the Jaguar server, but what you're hearing is the increased sensitivity of the Wyred picking up the jitter from the laptop or pc you're using. Connect it to a machine with lower jitter and it's a different sound.

 

As for burn-in, not everyone can hear it with their system or their ears, but it makes a major difference in the sound with all DACs and most (such as these) require, 250-400hrs. They actually sound progressively worse (congested) as the break-in progresses, until you finally break the back of the electronics and it opens up. Listening before that is severely handicapped.

 

 

Note: The DA-160 doesn't have volume control; the HA-160D does.

 

[ItemAudio]

Up-front, I confess we sell both: which makes us professionally unbiased (will happily retract any comments if they're not welcome) but we know these critturs well, and have heard them in many systems.

 

Most USB DACs are to some extent influenced by the electrical properties of their transport, so the comments to the effect that the W4S is 'worse' via its USB input need contextualising: which PC setup, exactly? Likewise, the SPDIF input of any DAC is influenced by external factors: particularly the clock bossing the bitstream.

 

Solely via USB we've heard the DAC2 sound radically different with different cables and computer transports; similarly, via its SPDIF input, it's pretty cute at spotting good and bad SPDIF converters, and all the associated cabling in between. In other words, it's hard to establish a level playing field for the comparison of its inputs: a moderately well-implemented USB transport will always sound worse than something like an OffRamp with a top-notch coaxial, but that may not be the DAC's fault...

 

Of course the same applies to the Burson, but it has a slightly different sensitivity: it's USB input is either less revealing, or more robust - take your pick.

 

Broadly speaking, I wouldn't disagree with the broad-brush characterisation made above, but we have been shocked by what a chameleon the W4S DAC is: in one system it sounds voiced with some analog warmth, in another on the cool side, in another polite, in another forward. You've touched on this quality when you noted how it transforms from 'harsh and sibilant' to 'free flowing and transparent' with the OffRamp. Sounds to me like you're describing power and jitter artefacts!

 

It's easier to get a handle on the Burson: it's reliably smooth, well-fleshed and natural whatever you partner it with: attractive without being explicitly detailed or brightly lit. But even for us, the W4S is something of an enigma: she's a capricious creature.

 

[Fork]

Yes, I would agree about the W4S character. It doesn’t add anything, so in a warm system it will still sound warm. The Burson is going to add some body and warmth (tube character).

 

A reclocker like the Off Ramp is going to lower jitter. You could lower jitter with a reclocker, a better server or both. A sound card is a good way to go on a budget. The Juli@ is about the best for the money, though I would recommend having an electronics pro remove the connector and replace the leash with a dedicated coax or BNC. I’m fairly convinced that a good soundcard beats just about any USB. It’s just a lower jitter interface, but there’s no consensus on this. Also, it helps to have a motherboard with native PCI rather than a PCIe bridge or using PCIe.