yet another multi channel DAC

[DyP]

Hi there,

 

(nice site and a pleasure to post my first question here!)

 

I'm looking for a solution for multi channel D/A conversion from my Windows-powered PC, with at least 4 channels (better 8) and high-res support for 24/192.

I don't mind the interface (whether it's Firewire, USB, AES, S/PDIF, ....), my only problem is the budget, which is less than 1500€ ($2100, but equipment is much more expensive here).

 

Since most of the multi channel DACs seemed to me a bit expensive being either studio or top HiFi equipment, I first thought of something like an AES16e plus two separate M1 (1400€ special offer). I know this could have some drawbacks using two DACs a) as they might sound slightly different (?) and b) paying twice for components which could be shared in a single multi channel DAC. But then I found the RME FF UC (900€) in this forum, which would be a lot cheaper. I already tested an Audiolab 8000AP which was quite awful (yet I liked its HDMI support for SACD playback via LPCM), and am currently using a V-DAC for stereo-"only".

Of course I wasn't quite surprised not finding any (or many) comparisons between stereo and multichannel DACs so I'd appreciate any comment or further suggestions.

 

 

Thanks!

 

 

(btw: playing on two stereo outputs of an AES16e should be possible with either some existing player software or some add-on)

 

[goldenpiggy]

I went from a MOTU 896HD (sucks) to a RME Fireface 800 (so so as a DAC) to a Prism Sound Orpheus (absolutely mindblowing). I really recommend you save $900 more and pick up a used Orpheus for around $3000USD or so. You will not have to upgrade for a long, long time.

 

If you're maxed out, I've heard good things written about the new RME UFX, which should fit your budget. But I don't have first-hand experience.

 

Cheers,

JR

 

[crisnee]

Why not go with a quality Pre-pro or even an AVR. Some can be had, if I'm not mistaken for less than $2k. You not only get a pretty to very good multi dac, but all the other stuff (many inputs for instance) should you decide to expand or experiment.

 

-Chris

 

[DyP]

@ crisnee

I already own an Marantz SR6005 (A/V reveiver) and tested an Audiolab 8000AP (pre-pro) both claim to be "quality" (in their price range) but the results being quite disappointing for D/A conversion.

The A/V people from avforums told the 8000AP was quite a good pre-pro, but when I compared it to some built-in DACs in the Marantz, a cheap Denon player or even a Creative sound card I found it wasn't an overwhelming difference.

Only when listening to the V-DAC, I found another level that was worth following. Maybe another or even a more expensive pre-pro could have done that, but as the Audiolab was seen as one of the best in it's range (please correct me if I'm wrong) I don't think it's worth the effort.

Since I use my PC as media "server" (that's y I'm here ) I don't use any other digital out, but the number of inputs on the AVR is great for connecting all kinds of analog sources to it like different DACs, turntable, SACD player, ..

 

@ goldenpiggy

I just bought an Fireface UC from a local (studio equipment) dealer and was quite astonished that you could hear the difference to the V-DAC right from the beginning, the V-DAC being connected to the S/PDIF-out of the FF. The FF DAC IS better IMHO, though I've to admit I still use the stock power supply for the V-DAC.

Orpheus seems to cost 3000€+ here -.- 4000 new. Than you could compare the a Lynx Aurora / AES16e combo (2600 new), both obviously not within my budget. The UFX is around 2000 new, but as I heard it's quite the same DAC plus some extra features (even more channels, effects, ..). Anyway, thanks for your alternatives.

 

As I had only two days so far to listen to the FF, I can only say I like it better than anything I heard so far. But I'll go to some other local HiFi dealer and try some more comparisons, even to high-end NAD/NAIM devices if possible ^^ just curious..

 

[crisnee]

I was thinking of something like an Integra Pre-pro, a few models of which got very good reviews at Stereophile.

 

I own a Pioneer Elite VSX-47tx, which is one of the best sounding AVR units made. Stereophile acclaimed its brother/sister (which differed only in its inclusion of an over the top remote) as sounding superb. It sold for over $3000 in 2003, weighs about 70 pounds and has excellent 192/24 dacs but it was pre HDMI. I don't know if their current Elite models live up this one.

 

By the way, and I swear this didn't occur to me when I first posted here, but I'm selling my 47 on Audiogon. I'm not sure if it's ok to mention that sort of thing here Chris, (I checked the "terms of use," and after having given it a fairly good read (not every word) I think it's ok). If however it isn't, please delete the requisite statement or the entire post if necessary.

 

-Chris

 

[Panelhead]

It does not all the functionality I want, but is a great multi channel interface. These are 300 - 400 in the US new.

There is a thread on Gearslutz where they test interfaces in a loop through test, digital to analog, then analog back to digital. Then compare the bits to measure S/N, resolution, linearity, phase and frequency response.

The king of the heap so far is the Mytek 24/192. But second place is the TC Impact Twin. The Orpheus is right behind. This does not include the mic pres, but if you are looking for dac that is not important.

I have never listened to the Orpheus, it is very well respected. The Impact Twin measures as well at 10% the cost. You could throw the TC unit away if you do not like it. Or sell it for a 50.00 loss.

 

George

 

 

[Quest]

why are u not considering just using hdmi output to a HT processor? am sure there are more products in this range than looking for something specifically made for PC via interfaces like firewire or usb.

 

[goldenpiggy]

Audio over HDMI has a fair amount of jitter, and you can definitely hear it. I have not seen many high-end multi-channel DAC with HDMI inputs other than receivers or surround processor/preamps. MOTU does make the V4HD aimed for the video market, but I'm not fond of how MOTU units sound.

 

If you want convenience, sure, HDMI has its pluses. If you want best possible sound quality, HDMI is not the way to go IMO, at least not in its current iteration.

 

 

About the TC Impact Twin...I own the TC Konnekt 24D which is somewhat similar. It sounds clean with tight bass, but somewhat dry, not very musical to me, and the soundstage, imaging, ambience retrieval and air is nowhere close to the Prism Orpheus. As should be -- the darn thing is 1/10th the price. I ended up using the Konnekt 24D to drive a Musical Fidelity VDAC over Coax S/PDIF to get better sound, but then there goes multichannel.

 

While a loopback test like the one on gearslutz might be a good indication of noise and distortion, I feel it does not necessarily indicate how good a DAC sounds. Only your ears can tell.

 

 

[dwkdnvr]

 

I recently went through a similar decision process, looking for an interface to use as part of a multi-way DSP crossover system. I was originally looking at the Lynx Aurora as the top-end of my search, but after an honest assessment of my budget I ended up with the Steinberg MR816x.

It's limited to 96kHz, and so doesn't satisfy the 192 requirement, but otherwise based on the overall chatter from the studio-oriented forums it seems to deliver a significant fraction of the higher end converters for substantially less money (although I don't know how the relative pricing plays out in Europe).

 

I've never directly compared it to anything in my current system (multi-amped DSP systems being rather tricky to A/B), but am very happy with the decision. Lowering the gain on my amps allows me to run a direct balanced connection from the MR816 to the amps, relying on the MR816 to handle volume control and eliminating the need for an additional volume control stage in the mix.

 

The MR816 also has 2 independent spdif outputs and so in theory could enable future expansion via external DACs as funds allow.

 

Another option to consider, anyway.

 

 

[crisnee]

Audio over HDMI has a fair amount of jitter, and you can definitely hear it.

 

That's new to me. I've never heard anyone (including reviewers) mention that when dealing with quality systems. Maybe you ran into some poor implementations (or maybe I'm blind).

 

I have a very inexpensive little digital player that plays 7.1 movies over HDMI and even there the jitter is negligible.

 

-Chris

 

[goldenpiggy]

Chris, each person's perception of how right something sounds varies. For me as a musician and sound engineer (besides audiophile), I'm more sensitive to minutes details, and HDMI jitter is very apparent when listening to high quality recordings on sensitive equipment (that is, NOT compressed 7.1 movie soundtracks, which can never be mistaken for well-mastered recordings).

 

I think you do need fairly revealing equipment to hear the HDMI jitter effects. I don't have super high-end stuff, but I can hear differences with decent speakers I own like NHT Classic 4, NHT XdS/XdW, Gallo Reference 3.5, and studio monitors like Mackie HR824 or Yamaha MSP10. I'm using an old Accuphase A-50 class A amp, so that helps reveal details.

 

Also, the multi-channel conversion quality you get with receivers or even the very best pre-procs are not going to compare to mastering multichannel interfaces like Prism, Mytek, Lavry, RME ADI-series, or Metric Halo.

 

The HDMI jitter debate is well noted on the internet (search on Google, and also this forum.) I'm not an expert, but it's got to do with the HDMI implementation of digital audio transmission not having its own dedicated clock, but rather depends on the video signal. It's so bad that high-end 2-channel DAC and multichannel audio interface manufacturers don't even bother with HDMI for dedicated audio conversion.

 

Cheers,

JR

 

 

 

[crisnee]

Chris, each person's perception of how right something sounds varies. For me as a musician and sound engineer (besides audiophile), I'm more sensitive to minutes details, and HDMI jitter is very apparent when listening to high quality recordings on sensitive equipment (that is, NOT compressed 7.1 movie soundtracks, which can never be mistaken for well-mastered recordings).

 

JR, I wasn't meaning to compare 7.1 movie soundtracks to quality recordings, just noting the good sound of even a cheap player over HDMI. I understand your wanting the best, but the reason I've made the suggestions I've made is because you also want inexpensive.

 

I don't personally have much (make that any) experience with listening to high quality recordings over a high quality pre-pro. I listen to quality music in stereo using a V-Dac, which if I remember right is what you have listed in your profile. If that's good enough for you in stereo (it's not exactly known for its disappearing jitter) I'm just surprised you're wanting inexpensive and somehow expecting to find better than that.

 

The reason I mentioned pre-pros in particular is because you were looking for a relatively inexpensive multi-dac. Going down the separate dac road, the quality you seem to want is in no way going to be inexpensive because not only is the dac your looking for expensive, but you need all kinds of other stuff before you can implement it properly. By the way, I briefly investigated this road for myself only to find it too expensive, (even the quality pre-pro route is too expensive for me now).

 

Have you checked out Kalman Rubinson's (I think that's how you spell his name) investigations into surround sound in Stereophile (It's his regular habitat with them)? He's reviewed some pre-pros that he thought were extremely high quality.

 

-Chris

 

[ted_b]

I had it inhome for eval and liked the sound for the money (Sweetwater will do 30 day). It was not a Metric Halo LIO-8 but it is also a fraction of the cost. I ended up stalling the mch DAC decision until I find a good mch software player, hopefully MAC-based. Some have recommended I look at XMBC. I am ripping lots of my mch (SACD and DVD-A) collection (DIFF and FLAC files) but have nothing to play them on (other than the original discs via analog mch pre or HDMI/prepro).

 

Anyway, went Antelope Gold /Voltikus for 2 channel and am still VERY interested in a good MCh DAC. I specnt bigger $$ for 2 channel cuz that's a bigger payoff for me, but still want it all!!!!!!

 

[DyP]

goldenpiggy about TC Konnekt 24D vs. V-DAC:

I ended up using the Konnekt 24D to drive a Musical Fidelity VDAC over Coax S/PDIF to get better sound, but then there goes multichannel.

I finally went to a local HiFi dealer and did my comparison between RME FF UC, V-DAC (connected via S/PDIF to the FF) and a Naim CD5 XS on some Marantz amp which I think was a PM-KI Pearl Lite. Built a box around the two DACs for blind test - double blind test failed unfortunately since I had to adjust volume levels - and tried different music genres as well as data rates from redbook CD up to 88.2/24

The difference between V-DAC and FF was negligible, barely audible when compared to the Naim player. Both the dealer and me agreed on the FF being slightly better, more revealing on some classical records during soli. The Naim.. far behind both of them. btw: the dealer had sold me the V-DAC, I got the FF from another store

Though I cannot hear a big difference between the V-DAC and the FF or none at all most of the time, the FF offers mch and that's a big plus for me (8 or 6 DACs for 900 vs. 2 DACs for 250).

 

While a loopback test like the one on gearslutz might be a good indication of noise and distortion, I feel it does not necessarily indicate how good a DAC sounds. Only your ears can tell.

I agree, it might even be possible to design a DA/AD box such as the FF with virtually zero distortion by software correction. Though I have no experience with music production, I'd guess it's not even important as long as you don't do a loopback via cable (FF supports internal or "software" loopback which should be lossless). Additionally, it cannot reveal whether the problem is the DA or AD part.

 

dwkdnvr on Steinberg MR816x:

It's limited to 96kHz, and so doesn't satisfy the 192 requirement, but otherwise based on the overall chatter from the studio-oriented forums it seems to deliver a significant fraction of the higher end converters for substantially less money (although I don't know how the relative pricing plays out in Europe).

The MR816x costs 650 here, so even cheaper than the RME FF. I was told that with Steinberg devices, like Sony, you'll pay a great deal just for the label. Of course, only a direct comparison could show.

 

 

 

So far, I think the FF offers great value for money. IMHO it's at least comparable, mostly equal and sometimes maybe better than the V-DAC, offers a (natively) great USB interface and, being studio equipment, great mch flexibility with the mixer tool included. For my purposes, I don't need the AD part or the pre-amps built in.

I find it a bit strange and nasty it needs to change it's internal speed for different sample rates (referred to as single, double and quad speed) and therefore deactivates some channels on higher sample rates down to 6 instead of 8 analog outputs at 192 kHz. As I'm currently using only four of them, I don't care, but unfortunately, the foobar2k ASIO output does, complaining about to few channels after a sample rate change..

Another "drawback" is the output jacks are 6.35 mm (0.25") TRS connectors MONO unbalanced (or balanced with stereo connectors) so you might need some rather special TRS to cinch cables depending on you amp.

 

Thanks for your suggestions, I'm keeping my FF as so far I'm quite happy with it: sound quality is good and mch is no problem any more.

 

[goldenpiggy]

I think comparing the V-DAC standalone vs V-DAC being fed S/PDIF from the RME UC would sound different. The RME is very good in the jitter reduction department, so its S/PDIF output feeding anything is very, very good. Before I got my Orpheus, I used the RME FF800's S/PDIF out to feed an old Bel Canto DAC2 (@96KHz) and an even older Pathos InTransfer DAC (@48KHz). They sounded spectacular. The RME's superior, ultra stable clock made a huge difference.

 

Bottom line is if you like how the UC sounds, awesome -- that's all that matters.

 

[Nickolay_V]

Correct DACs (AUDIO CARDS) comparison is only possible if you also have flawless AMPLIFIER AND SPEAKERS.

Choosing them is also quite a task.

NOWADAY by the way, we don't use usual(PISTON) SPEAKERS anymore. To achieve maximum quality we install only NXT and BMR technology speakers (! with additional SUBBASS (20(35)-160(200)Hz) speakers of course).

We're also using superior quality amplifiers (DR/NF/= 116-120Db ,THD less 0,0xx ), mainly Hypex UcD and Flying Mole DAD series.

Only in such conditions RME FF UC , for example, can show its worth

(and BEST of ALL results)!!!

 

PS: During three years we tested great numbers Pro and Custom DACs.

Best Results:

RME (Firewire and USB)

Audiotrak drDAC2 (with three DAC OpAmp IC replacement to LM4562 )

Motu (All USB cards)

 

... All Musical Fidelity (!and Hegel at the same time ) DACs are mediocre