So many options so little answers

[bluesman]

On 8/22/2020 at 11:30 AM, Bliman said:

I am looking for something that is some sort of giant killer or that is very very good price/quality.

Meeting your needs is easy, but you left out a few things. Do you have a usable computer besides your laptop? Do you have either LAN access or a WLAN in your listening area? Do you have network storage?

 

If you have a usable computer and a local network available at your listening area, I’d either buy a JRiver Media Center license or install an open source music management system like Foobar2000 (if you’re running Windows) or go to Linux (eg Ubuntu) and either JRMC or one of the many excellent open source music management systems available for Linux.  Then I’d buy a Raspberry Pi 4B with 4 gigs of RAM and set it up as a DLNA player in your listening area, driving your RME.  Instructions like these are readily available.  If you’re running JRMC, you’ll also need to install BubbleUPnP Server (also open source) on the computer.  And you need storage for your music files, which can be networked or local to the computer (internal, USB etc).
 

If you have no usable computer or no network, a fine option is to put Ubuntu Studio on an i3 NUC and either buy  a JRMC license for it or use VLC (which is installed with US).  If you don’t like that choice, I’d put one of the many open source music systems out there (Volumio, Daphile, Rune, Kodi, etc) on a new Raspberry Pi to drive your RME. If you do the latter, you need storage that isn’t accessed via the same bus that connects your DAC.  You can also buy a Linux license for JRMC and install it on the Pi, if it’s your main music computer.  It works very well on a Pi and even does multichannel well.
 

Since a Pi only has USB or HDMI, I’d buy a PiHAT (eg the one from Allo) that adds optical output to your DAC. That way, you can get excellent performance with a USB3 drive for your music.

 

All if the above are well within your budget, with enough left over to set up a network and NAS if you want them.

[bluesman]

1 hour ago, Bliman said:

What do you guys/girls reckon is the best option to get the best sound quality?

If you'e computer is up to it, I'd put your music server & management system on it, and set up a Raspberry Pi 4B at your listening area to drive your RME DAC. Your choice of player software on the Pi is dictated in part by which server you use on the computer.  I don't think a stock NUC with any processor will sound any better unless you're using heavy DSP, MC, etc.  You're also pushing your budget with anything over a stock i3 NUC with a nice little SSD and maximum RAM.  You can probably find a deal on a new Mac Mini for less than a heavy duty NUC.

 

JRiver Media Center is excellent on Windows and on Linux, while Foobar2000 is easier on Windows but will run fine on a Linux box using Wine.  There are several great options for open source and free proprietary apps too.  But if you don't want to spend any money and you run Windows, I'd do Foobar2000 - I've used it for many years, and it's a wonderful program that demands only basic skills to set up and configure.  If you're willing to spend the very reasonable cost of a JRiver license, it's an easy and wonderful program (as is Roon, but you've ruled that out). 

 

Connect the Pi to your network via ethernet.  Your Wifi router is a bit dated.  It'll do the job for audio, but it's only 2.4 GHz and won't exceed 300 mbps even under ideal conditions (line of sight, no floors / walls / other obstacles in the way).  it's about 4 times slower than even a modest current router (802.11ac).  Drive your DAC with USB3 from the Pi.  You really do need a good storage system for your music files, and NAS is the way most of us do this.  You only need it to store music files, so a basic NAS with 1 or 2 disks would be fine for you up to at least 8 TB.  I've used a WD MyCloud Mirror in the past, and I now have an Asustor 5202 - both of them are great for media files.

 

You could also just run JRiver on a 4 gig Pi 4B networked via ethernet, add a NAS to your network for music file serving, and you'll have a complete system that sounds great.  JRiver on a Pi 4 will do multichannel, more than a little DSP, DSD, and a whole lot more with grace and dignity.  Although it's still a bit slow on a hot rodded 3B+, the JRiver GUI runs very well on a 4.  My stock 4 loaded 10,481 files plus all cover art in 14 minutes and 52 seconds - and it sounds great!

 

Also, remember that you can control JRiver Media Center from any device with a web browser that's on your network or has internet access to it.  And JRiver will stream your files to you anywhere in the world, which I love (and is not yet available from Roon).  I have one Raspberry Pi 3B set up as a dedicated JRiver streamer for my son (who lives elsewhere but is too cheap and lazy to set up his own  )

[bluesman]

19 minutes ago, Bliman said:

At one side you have the people who say to just take a raspberry pi or NUC and on the other side you have people who are looking at the power supplies and cables and such. It seems like one is looking for the most ergonomic way to listen to music and the other is analyzing to music.

It is pretty difficult to follow.

Truth be told, SQ is probably so close with all of your considerations that any will do the job well for you.  You have a nice analog playback system that should bring out the best from them all.  
 

The Neo is a great little box, as are a Pi and a NUC.  Power supplies etc are icing on the cake, and opinions vary widely on their value.  But you did specify a budget of 1k, and you can’t add PS upgrades, fancy cables etc to a $500 player and a pair of good 4 TB drives and stay under that limit.  I personally don’t think you need that stuff to get great sound, but that’s just my opinion.

 

A Neo is great - but it has no WiFi so you must use Ethernet with it. It gives you many options for player software, and it’d be worth the cost to me if I wanted what it offers.  But for SQ, a well done Pi is so close that it’s my choice. FWIW, I have 7 of them in different systems, for listening, ripping, live recording, and experimenting. $55 USD vs $450 is not a hard choice for me.

 

If you don’t use a NAS, your drives have to be accessible somehow. I don’t think you can connect them directly to a Neo.

[bluesman]

5 hours ago, audiobomber said:

As per my previous post and link, the sms-200 Neo does allow wi-fi with an inexpensive dongle mounted

But then you’re using the same USB bus for both incoming files and outgoing digital audio to the DAC, which can cause audible SQ degradation.  High res or DSP’ed files along with WiFi could even push the limits of USB2.  I’d stick with Ethernet in and USB out.

 

You can try most of the software you’re considering right now. JRiver and many others offer free trials.  Download a few to your computer and compare them to see if you like any. “Turnkey” means you will use exactly and only what you get.  The adjustability of the software systems is a real benefit that can help you love one you might have rejected if its default settings were its only configuration. 

[bluesman]

8 hours ago, audiobomber said:

No, the output and input USB ports are not the same:

 

- High-End audio grade USB port x 1
- USB 2.0 port x 2

 

Another solution is to connect the SMS to a wi-fi extender/repeater that has an ethernet port, but I don't think that is necessary.

Having two USB ports with different names doesn’t mean two busses.  If each is on a separate buss, bandwidth and interference are not problems.  But the SOtM specs for the Neo only give one max current rating (0.5A) for all USB ports, which suggests to me that there’s only one USB bus. And there’s no description of the circuit design to clarify this.

 

The OP’s DAC is self-powered, so that half an ampere is available to any other USB devices connected to the Neo.  But that’s the maximum available to all in combination, and a WiFi dongle dissipates about half a watt.  So no other USB peripheral can be connected to the 3rd port if if dissipates more than about 1.75 watts to leave some headroom. For example, that means no HDD or SSD for music files.

 

I don’t think depending on USB is a good idea.  I’d use a NAS and Ethernet.

[bluesman]

4 hours ago, audiobomber said:

There are three USB ports, one of which is a clean bus for audio. It is pretty clear that there is a separate bus for audio, otherwise why not just say there are three USB ports? 

It's not clear to me.  Simply labeling a USB port "audio" does not mean that it's on a separate bus.  Without reference to a separate bus for it in any SOtM descriptions, it's much more likely that it's unpowered but on the same bus.

 

In my experience (which admittedly may not be as extensive as yours), manufacturers and vendors rarely miss an opportunity to dramatize special features.  So if there were two USB busses, I'd expect this fact to be presented in bold type and multiple places because it'd be a strong selling point.  A dedicated USB bus for audio output is a big deal, so why in the world wouldn't they describe it if it were there?

 

4 hours ago, audiobomber said:

Where do you see there is only 0.5A for all USB ports? The 0.5A rating is the maximum current for each individual port. The two input ports share a bus. From the website: "Recommend using the USB storage device which get powered separately.", which would allow up to 0.5A for the wi-fi dongle and 0.5A for a DAC.

Yes, it "...would allow up to 0.5A for the wi-fi dongle and 0.5A for a DAC".  But you added that yourself.  There's absolutely nothing on their site to suggest that there's a separate bus for the audio USB out.  

 

SOtM does not say that the audio port will power a DAC anywhere on their site.  It's described only as a USB "output", a somewhat odd term for a USB port but one that suggests that it's an output like any other (e.g. RCA, BNC, XLR).  And I've now read about a dozen reviews of this device on the web.  Each reviewer used independently powered DACs with internal batteries or external PS. I can't find a single one that uses a USB powered DAC.

 

My bet is that there's only one USB bus in this device and that the audio port is unpowered.  If anyone on AS knows the answer to this question, please educate us.  I don't care if I'm right or wrong - I just want to know.

 

[bluesman]

1 hour ago, audiobomber said:

I've used two DAC's that needed USB power with the SMS-200, the Korg DS-DAC-10R and the Benchmark DAC3.

AFAIK, the Benchmark DAC3 is not USB powered - it has an internal PS and a line cord.

     

 

That Korg does run on 5 units of USB power.  So if you're driving it with a Neo using the audio USB port, that port obviously has power.  But we still don't know if it's on a separate bus.

[bluesman]

8 hours ago, stefano_mbp said:

@bluesman just connected a Khadas Tone Board dac to my SOtM sms200 Neo and it works fine.

Khadas Tone Board can be powered only by usb ...

Good to know - thanks. Now the remaining questions is whether there’s a separate dedicated USB bus in the Neo for the audio output.

[bluesman]

2 hours ago, audiobomber said:

I asked SOtM for confirmation, but not sure it matters. The sms-200 sounds better than a Raspberry Pi, microRendu and the Allo digital transports according to my research.

I did too. No response yet.

 

Research is no substitute for experience.  Have you listened to them all in the same system with the same program material? What matters to me is what my ears tell me, not what others describe.

 

To be honest, I don’t think many tech specs matter to SQ, given the large numbers of people who prefer either of any two alternatives.  With few exceptions, most decent products have their supporters and detractors.  But I’d love to know if that “audio output” is on a separate bus because it makes no sense for SOtM to go to that expense and effort but not to use it in marketing.  And the way they lay out the specs, it’s really not clear whether that power spec is per port.  If it is, they should add “per port” after 0.5A - it wouldn’t cost them a cent.  Further, it’s a spec of which they should be proud because other SBCs (eg all Pis) have a single cumulative current limit on all USB ports.  SOtM has a lot of competition, although that particular device offers a few features that simplify its use compared to other streamers.  
 

FWIW, I love Roon for the available art and info it collates and presents.  One of my favorite things to do is to listen to my vinyl while reading the liner notes and admiring the cover art.  Roon recreates this experience better than any other such program I’ve seen. I also use and love JRiver, because it does other things better than Roon. And I still rip with Foobar2000.

[bluesman]

1 hour ago, audiobomber said:

I received a reply from May Park of SOtM, confirming what I originally stated, there is a dedicated USB bus for audio:

 

Hi Dan, 

Yes, there are two USB buses in the sMS-200.

 

Thank you.

Best regards, May

Fascinating!  Here's the query I sent SOtM USA yesterday morning at 8:30 AM EDT:

________________________________________________________

To: <[email protected]>
Subject: New customer message on August 26, 2020 at 8:30 am

 

Name: David

 

Body: Hi - Is the audio USB port in the Neo on a separate bus from the paired USB ports, or are all 3 on the same bus?  Does the audio output carry 5V power?  Thanks!

________________________________________________________

 

Here's what I got in reply:

_______________________________________________________

Hi David,

 

Thanks for your email. The audio USB and the two USB ports are on the same bus. The USB audio carries +5.0V(+0.5V, -0.25V)

 

Let me know if you have any questions.

 

Thank you,

Kamal

____________________________________________________________

 

So we'll never know unless we can get a schematic or someone's willing to pull apart his unit to see if there are two USB chips.

 

D
 

[bluesman]

48 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

If you choose Qnap, you at least have the option to install Roon. That’s not as easy on the Asustor.

Installing Roon on the Asustor was as easy as installing it on any other device.  It only takes a simple click to add it from the Asustor app list.  Configuration is also no different. 

 

I also stuck a 250G SSD on a USB port for the Roon db, and it's been smooth sailing from day 1.  Per Roon, running the server on an SSD (whether internal or USB) is advisable with any storage scheme.  It will run OK on mechanical HDDs, but things can get a bit slow when the library grows beyond about 10k files.  The SSD is only for Roon server and db - you don't need (or want) SSD storage for your music files.

 

Even my lowly AS5202T is up to basic Roon functions, although the processor's a bit weak for serious work like heavy upsampling, DSD256+DSP etc.  I filled the RAM slots to the max, and I'm very happy with my choice.  SQ is the same as it is from Roon on my PC or my NUC.

 

On 8/25/2020 at 11:12 PM, audiobomber said:

I realize Roon has info on artists and the music, but I can get more from Wikipedia and allmusic.com than Roon provides.

But you can't call it all up by clicking links in most other programs' GUIs.  Roon integrates many data sources into the album or track display, so that you don't have to search around for it.

[bluesman]

3 minutes ago, Bliman said:

This is so complicated it hurts. Why is it all so difficult?

You may be making it more difficult than it needs to be for you. There is no perfect solution - compromise is the key to happiness. Finding a good solution for you means knowing what you want and need from it.  Make a list of the facts and functions that are important to you, prioritize them from highest to lowest, and start trialing software to get an idea of which ones offer the most of what you want.  Also know what you absolutely don't want, so you don't accidentally end up with something you dislike.

 

For example, do you want to be able to grow into multichannel or is 2 channel your only goal?  Do you want to be able to listen to DSD files? Do you want to be able to stream your own files to your mobile device over the internet?  Will you apply DSP of any kind?  Are you planning to rip your CDs or switch to a streaming service?  If you plan to rip and listen to your own CDs, how many do you have and do you expect to add many more?  Do you want a plug-and-play system that requires no input from you other than choosing your music and clicking play, or are you willing and able to configure and optimize it yourself? Etc etc etc.

 

Once again, you can download and try almost every available music management system, from simple players to those that manage your library, tag your files, present more information and artwork for each tune than you'll ever want, etc.  Why not start by downloading a trial of JRiver to your PC or laptop, just to get the feel of it?  Try Foobar2000 if you're willing to do a little configuration and your PC is running Windows.  Then try VLC and a few others.  Once you start going "I don't like that" or "I really love that" about a feature, you'll be better able to decide what you want and which programs provide it.

 

Sound quality is fine at the very least from all of the software you'll try (Caution!  Flames may be approaching!). I'd pick the software first.  Once you find what you like at a cost you're willing to pay (and a lot of very fine players are open source and free except for voluntary donations to the team that made and support it), you can pick a platform that meets your needs for space, cost, functionality, etc.  The Neo is a wonderful little piece that lets you choose from among several software players. A Raspberry Pi4, a NUC, and many other boxes you'll read about here and on other audio forums would also do the job for you.  You can run media servers on a variety of NASs and play to a Neo, a Pi, or another endpoint of your choice. 

 

I assume from the fact that it's not an iPhone that your phone is an Android, in which case you have multiple control and streaming options for it.  You can control JRiver through its built-in web GUI using a web browser on any mobile device - almost all of the players are web accessible for control.

 

You've put far more effort and angst into this than seems necessary to me.  Just start simple and see what you like.  A NAS running a media server and a simple endpoint like a Neo or a Raspberry Pi would be an excellent solution for most of us.  Running a media server on your PC is also a fine solution.  And if you start with inexpensive hardware additions plus inexpensive or open source software, you can always upgrade, add components, or otherwise refine your system as your experience and taste both mature.  SQ is a personal judgment that you can't make on the basis of other people's ears.

[bluesman]

33 minutes ago, Bliman said:

Let's take for example I rip 50 cd's. I put them on my harddrive on my computer.

What then? Like before my computer is downstairs and I don't have access  above where my system is.

 

On 8/24/2020 at 12:50 PM, Bliman said:

I have wifi upstairs in my listening room and with this I also could have a cabled option

Now it's really getting hard to follow you.  If you have a "cabled option" and a router, you have access to your computer through your own LAN.  If you only have WLAN upstairs, you still have access to your computer through that.  As was already pointed out by someone else, you could use an ethernet port on a WiFi range extender.  That Devolo system also looks great, although I've never used this kind of device.  If it does what it says it does, it'd probably be a fine solution for network access.

 

And if you run a music server on your PC with your music files stored on its HDD, you can send the audio output to a player upstairs over WiFi.

[bluesman]

1 hour ago, stefano_mbp said:

@audiobomber @bluesman one or two usb buses...

just tried to connect two dacs to my SOtM sms200 Neo

the first on the “audio specialized “ usb connector (vertical one)

the second on one the two other usb ports 

... SOtM sms200 can see both ....

then configured MPD to use the second (Khadas Tone Board) .... rebooted

... it works 

Thanks - your effort is greatly appreciated!  But to clarify, if you're running phpSysInfo on your NUC, aren't the two DACs you connected to the Neo two of the seven USB devices it shows connected to gear throughout your network?  The fact that both DACs are recognized does not mean that they're on separate buses.  I can connect my iFi Nano DSD, Emotiva Stealth, and SMSL SU8 to 3 of the USB ports on any of my PCs with only one USB bus for them all, and they all appear both on network monitors and as zones in Roon.  And they all function.  The same is true when they're connected to my NUC.

 

You don't actually say that you believe there are 2 USB buses in the Neo, so I'm not sure what you're telling us.  If you are saying this, what in the phpSysInfo readout tells you that there are indeed two?

[bluesman]

2 minutes ago, stefano_mbp said:

@bluesman my intention was just to demonstrate that they both work.

If there were actually to buses one of them specialized for Audio I would have expected that the second dac could not be used nor configured in MPD  ... but I can mistake, obviously 

Thanks!  We really don't know what makes the "audio" USB port special, other than a label.  It carries power, so that's not a difference.  And you've proven that the standard USB ports also send audio to a DAC.  So this remains a mystery!

[bluesman]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

Are you familiar with using Remote Desktop?
You need Win10 pro in order to use it. (VNC may be an option). 

I use and love RealVNC on all my computers and devices.  It's an easy download, but you have to put the RealVNC server on each device you want to control and put the viewer on those from which you want to use for control.  On a Pi, you only have to turn on the VNC function in the preferences panel to be able to control it from another computer.

 

Right now, I access desktops on 14 computers from my main PC and a few tablets - 2 on Win10, 2 on Ubuntu Studio 20, 2 on Ubuntu 18 LTS, 7 Raspberry Pis, and a Beaglebone Black.  The free version only lets you put 5 devices into your account for cloud access.  But you can remote into an unlimited number of devices on your LAN or WLAN by IP address.

[bluesman]

10 hours ago, audiobomber said:

Second reply from May Park, Worldwide Sales Manager for SOtM, and consulted with the designer to confirm.

 

Kamal is the North American distributor, not a direct SOtM employee. This question is settled AFAIC, there are two busses:

 

Hi Dan, 

No, Kamal may misunderstood it, there are  two USB buses in the sMS-200, and it is the answer from the designer of the sMS-200

 

Best regards, May

Good to know - thanks!

[bluesman]

14 hours ago, Bliman said:

I must use Jriver with Ipeng for android, am I right?

No.  Unless I've missed it, iPeng is only for iOS.  JRiver has a built in web interface called Panel that lets you control it from any device with a browser, regardless of its operating system. The instructions are HERE.

 

JRiver also has a remote app for Android and iOS called JRemote (instructions HERE).  It's worth trying if you're not thrilled with Panel.  I've used it from its early versions (before Panel was introduced) and I like it a lot.  But Panel is already in JRMC, and I believe JRemote costs a few dollars.  So you might want to try Panel first.

[bluesman]

3 hours ago, sandyk said:

 The maximum voltage given of +5.5V is above the specifications of 5.25V (ATX v2.2)

Right - but I'm not the source of that information.  It was in the quoted reply I got from the US SOtM distributor:

 

Hi David,

 

Thanks for your email. The audio USB and the two USB ports are on the same bus. The USB audio carries +5.0V(+0.5V, -0.25V)

 

Let me know if you have any questions.

 

Thank you,

Kamal

 

Since the point under discussion was whether their USB "audio" port carried power, the meat of the answer was that it does.  As I recall, the spec for USB is 5V +/- 5% - but there seemed to be little point in clouding the issue under discussion.

 

It appears that Kamal was also wrong about the bus.

 

Thanks!

 

David