Misleading Measurements

[STC]

13 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

Could some people be very sensitive to this effect and may those like @STC prefer reproductions with less crosstalk such as ambiophonics be because there is less acoustic intermodulation?

I did not read all the posts. I only read the first post and your post quoting me so what I reply is confined to these two posts.  I will be emphasizing the word ONE in my reply here. 
 

In audio, we measure only ONE signal at a time. A reproduction of ONE signal ( channel) always correlates with measurements for assessment of sound quality. 
 

All sound that reaches our ears are a mix of direct and reverberation. In live concert, the indirect sound of the reverberation make up more than 80% of the sound we hear. These indirect sound hardly represents the exact sound waves of the original direct sound waves. Your perfect measurements are no longer relevant now as the sound waves are already altered by the time it reaches the ears. 
 

So far we are dealing with only ONE sound. In nature there is no stereo sound. In stereo reproduction what we hear is two sound representing the original single sound. The effect of soundstage is the creation of our mind based on the level difference cues. This again got nothing to do with the measurements as we do not utilize ILD and ITD difference similarly to everyone.  For some the ITD difference can be around 900Hz to 1500Hz and for others at a different range.  This again will make all the measurements useless as we simply do not know how the brain going to process the stereo sound for localization. 
 

In Ambiophonics ( which is actually listening to stereo without crosstalk via speakers), you provide the signal to the ears that corresponds to real sound that is only ONE sound. This got nothing to do acoustic intermodulation. It simply reduces the confusion to the brain grappling the conflicting ITD caused by stereo phantom image(s). It also reduces the comb filter effect caused by the two signals of the same sound....

 

If the post gets deleted, I will email you, AN. 
 

 

[STC]

3 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

Hi ST

thanks for that and I understand how ambiophonics would present one sound to two ears as in real life.

 

The issue here is acoustic intermodulation aka intonation as discussed in the quotes below.

 

So, intonation / acoustic intermodulation obviously exists in real life acoustic performances as musicians and physicists would agree.

 

Those real life tones are captured in the recording and even with Mono reproduction would be reproduced, creating a second generation of new acoustic intermodulation - a 'double down effect'. It is this that may color the sound.

 

So I thought of you here. Surely ambiophonics would tend to mitigate this effect quite apart from any other benefits. I don't think it could eliminate it, just ameliorate the effect, or at least not exacerbate it like stereo crosstalk. It would be another plus for arguing for ambiophonics, if I am right

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi AN,

 

It will always exist because we are receiving two inputs via two ears. All sound when reaching the ear drums already altered even for ONE mono signal due to the difference in the pinna between left and right ears. You are always listening to two inputs at all time which cannot represent the exact measurements ( sound waves) as the original even after taking into consideration of frequency shaping by our ears. 
 

Furthermore, our ears are not fixed in space as we continually move even when you try to hold your breath. Even the slightest movements alter the FR that reaches your ear drums. A perfect 440Hz will never be perfect by the time it reaches the ears because we are constantly moving even if it just a few millimeters. 

[STC]

8 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

 

Hi ST

Sorry, I just edited my previous post to add the quote I wanted you to see about intonation.

 

So even with one ear and one speaker, Intonation will occur from combination of the sound waves in the air.

 

I'm just thinking, it's worse with stereo and ambiophonics may help mitigate that effect

 

Actually I think Ambiophonics will make it worse because the recursive nature of the signal feeding more than the normal two signals of stereo. OTOH, it also helps to smoothen and average out the difference. The only thing we noticed is that room influence is lessen and we really do not know why as this involves how human perceive sound rather than measurements. 
 

With physical barriers to prevent the crosstalk then It is possible that Ambiophonics might mitigate. 
 

 

[STC]

6 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

So even with one ear and one speaker, Intonation will occur from combination of the sound waves in the air.

David,

 

You may want to look at Tartini tones and intermodulation distortion that occurs naturally due to non linearity of the ears. 
 

Cheers,

ST

[STC]

I may have missed earlier posts here and therefore just confining to the last two posts where reference made to me. 
 

For YouTube video or even high resolution audio samples ( which is usually the case before it is compressed by YT), it will only be useful for system evaluation as heard in situ if it is recorded with binaural mics and played back using headphones. 
 

Binaural recordings capture the sound field. That is the actual sound waves arriving at your ears. You are not only judging the speakers but also the room acoustics. you are judging the phantom image that is created by the stereo playback which depends on how you place them. 

 

Will these audio samples be the mirror image of actual sound?  No! Unless you think your hi Rez audiophile recordings are the exact sound of the actual event. 
 

There will be differences and compromise. The mic quality, pinna difference and the playback method will affect the SQ but you should still able to distinguish the better ones. This is only true if you capture the sound field using binaural mics. 
 

YouTube recordings of system playback using videomic or smartphone mics are misleading. This is so true with today’s modern smartphones that come with noise and echo cancellation where the algorithm’s main job is to make the audio better. The point of making these video is to convey the actual sound as heard by the listener at the sweet spot. The only way to do this is to capture the sound field using binaural mics. 
 

Here is a video using binaural mics comparing 1) Dynaudio Saphire
2) Vandersteen 2CE
3) Magnepan 1.7i
4) JTR Noesis 210RT, speakers.

 

 and this is the sound of Sound Lab speakers ( hi Rez). For Apple to Apple comparison you can compressed it as much you like to match the YouTube SQ. 

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Avexw_l7DM5sgsAbtxb6ZjW4JhuwRA

 

ST