Allo Digione Signature

[RX8R3ROD]

A quick word of caution with using the 18650 battery power supplies.

 

I’m currently experimenting with the Allo Katana (yet another brilliant Allo product 😁👍 when properly powered), and was adding in the Supercaps to my +/- 15v battery power supply for the opamp board.

 

This uses 2x4 18650 batteries in plastic battery holders.

 

I had disconnected the battery supply from the Katana but (lazily 🙄) hadn’t disconnected the batteries before starting to disassemble the supply prior to adding the Supercaps.

 

Two wires touched for just a moment and that was all it took to fuse all the spring contacts in the battery power packs together, and melt the related parts of the plastic power packs! 😳 It looked like we were going to get combustion, as the spring contacts were glowing veeerry red ...

 

So please don’t do what I did ... and be very careful when you’re working with the battery supplies.

 

There is an awful lot of energy in 3 or 4 (or even just 2) of those cells in series, and whilst that contributes very significantly to the sound quality (it’s utterly brilliant on those opamp boards), it can have its downsides, too.

 

Am ordering replacement battery packs - and 18650’s - today ...

 

[RX8R3ROD]

I suspect experience varies, but Roipee worked absolutely straight away for me 😁 Good luck 😉 

[RX8R3ROD]

I am indeed! 😁

 

I can tolerate all sorts of tonal imbalance, dodgy imaging, colouration, etc but I cannot tolerate poor timing, particularly where  the bass lags behind everything else.

 

Thus any gear that improves PRAT is IMHO a very good thing. 👍 

[RX8R3ROD]

12 hours ago, Spenagio said:

well, spent the entire afternoon/evening trying to get sound from the DS, and failed.

I have used a new SD card with Ropieee, all configured correctly (although I did notice that in the set-up options for Ropieee you can select Allo Digione, but there is no Signature).

Roon recognises the endpoint.

Tracks seem to be playing through.

NO SOUND.

 

I have tried a number of powering options for clean and pi side, using the Allo 5v PS for the pi with either another 5v or 12v for clean.

 

Will try with batteries on Monday, but don't hold out much hope!

 

I can only think that there is a hardware fault somewhere, so anticipating sending back to Audiophonics next week. Don't really want to open the case, don't think I should have to at the selling price IMO.

 

On the Allo website it seems the present the message that the clean side is flexible in what power is used? Doesn't seem to be the case, as I can only think that I am under powering or overpowering.

 

Waste of a weekend! Anyone got a Lumin to sell?

Allo does need to update its guidance to avoid confusion.

 

In a more recent post Allo stated to keep it at, or around, the level of the batteries (which is 8.4 volts when fully charged) or less. 

 

This seems to me to make sense.

 

Whilst the regulators may allow up to 29 volts (or whatever) input to produce 3.3 volts (or whatever) output on the manufacturers spec sheet they will generally only allow that - reliably - with extensive heat sinking.

 

I don’t know about the DS Player, but on the basic DS there isn’t much sign I can see of extensive heat sinking, ... though the airflow is undeniably good 😁

 

Hope the batteries help ...

 

[RX8R3ROD]

Fingers crossed then! 😀🤞

[RX8R3ROD]

15 minutes ago, InfinitelyBaffled said:

 

So I have had this new Signature running steady now for five days and have spent a few hours listening to it. Comparing it to my standard DigiOne setup with the Pi's switched power supply, I have found the Signature to be more resolving and to have a noticeably better soundstage. The Signature paired with my Yggdrasil DAC is a good combo. Higher resolution is very evident on voices and percussion instruments like the vibraphone or bells.

The Centaur power supplies were an easy build, I initially set them both at exactly 5 volts, but I noticed the red light on the pi would go on and off intermittently while booting, signaling a drop below 4.63 volts. I cranked the power supply up to 5.2 volts and it is now solid through the boot process as well as during operation. The 2.5 amps seem to be plenty enough to power the Pi. On the "clean side" I have the same power supply but set at exactly 5 volts. With 15k uF smoothing capacitors on these power supplies, I think I am providing some clean and steady power to both sides of the Signature.

The only thing that presented a challenge on this build were the USB C connectors - I wish Allo would also provide some solder pads on the board to wire power directly - I had to dig up some 90 degree angled adapters to get this setup to fit in the case.

Overall, I am very satisfied with this setup - I think it was worth the expense and effort. I might grab a battery setup and compare that to the Centaur supply on the clean side, but I doubt I will hear any improvement - this thing is dead silent and overpowered as it is (clean side has 2.5 amps available to it) - I had planned to add copper shielding around the DS, but I don't think it needs it.

Thanks for the update 👍

 

Great to hear you’re enjoying the Signature so much! 😁

 

It is a fab bit of kit IME. (And so’s the Katana).

 

If you go down the battery ps experiment route have fun, and you may find that it’s worth adding Supercaps and / or regulation to the batteries.

 

IME the batteries sound absolutely great, but in relative terms can perhaps be be described as a little bit slow and ‘dirty’ (best way I can describe it) compared to adding Supercaps/ Superregs (in my system, with my PRAT-based musical preferences). I also find that bass dynamics can potentially be improved with really good regs and fast caps.

 

Enjoy the music!! 😁

 

And power to Allo 👍

[RX8R3ROD]

I am in East Midlands near Nottingham though not again until next weekend (might be weekend after). But if that’s any help ... 

[RX8R3ROD]

I can well understand that! 😁 

[RX8R3ROD]

31 minutes ago, Spenagio said:

Out of interest has anyone powered the clean side successfully with the provided Allo 5v PS? 

 

I did when I first bought the DS, with an iPower on the dirty side, then swapped them over and started really experimenting.

 

The Allo 5v supply is, IME, actually surprisingly decent, given it doesn’t cost a fortune.

 

I’ve seen ripple figures of just a few mv quoted, which is on a par with a good few LPS’s.

 

To me it had a character broadly similar to the battery supply (where, say, a raw iPower is somewhat brighter, a bit more detailed, and more Hi-Fi sounding), sounding quite ‘organic’ (whatever that means 🙄) but just wasn’t as good overall.

[RX8R3ROD]

Hope you get your Signature really soon! 🤞

 

I know it’s really frustrating waiting for a much-anticipated product to arrive, but Allo is a younger, growing company ...

 

 

 

[RX8R3ROD]

Sorry to hear about your problems, and hope you get sorted quickly, but IME it’s very much worth the wait when moving from the standard DigiOne

[RX8R3ROD]

9 hours ago, kotlarix said:

 

Same here "in transit", but first I got email that my order is canceled so I wrote again and my digione signature is on the way to me 😉

 

Rest of a stuff coming Tuesday so when I'll be ready with drilling I'll share pictures

Great to hear the deliveries are coming through. Enjoy! 😊 

[RX8R3ROD]

4 hours ago, Spenagio said:

Have you had chance to compare this relatively cheap LPS against any of your others? Thinking of ordering if it is likely to outperform the batteries I am currently using. I am in the UK, going to check if they will ship here.

 

Everyone to their own preferences, and what sounds great to some people doesn’t necessarily to others, etc ...

 

Buuuut batteries, especially IME if combined with Supercaps and a Superreg, can be awfully difficult - some would say almost impossible - to beat. (Obviously, some people will say otherwise, too)

 

Adding one of these 

 

tps://www.audiophonics.fr/en/power-supply-kits/wondom-bcpb2-battery-bms-power-supply-charger-module-lithium-18650-with-protections-p-13079.html

 

neatly gets around most of the hassles of 18650 batteries.

 

Just a thought FWIW 😁

[RX8R3ROD]

1 hour ago, dmormerod said:

 

If I'm understanding correctly, can this be connected to a 15-24v adapter all the time and the DigiOne would draw from the batteries? If so then that does indeed remove the hassles!

I don’t know for sure as I haven’t tried exactly this, and am working away for a bit so won’t be able to for a little while.

 

What I have tried was measuring the voltage whilst I was top-up charging the batteries, and I was getting ~12.whatever volts from the ‘wondom’ (😄) and ~5.whatever volts from the superreg output.

 

This was varying a little bit more than usual however (normally I get an absolutely rock-‘solid and stable’ (sorry, couldn’t help the May reference there ... 🙄) 5v from the superreg).

 

So based on that I think you should be able to play the Signature as you describe (plenty of people do seem to do this using BMS’s, and a number report no audible difference) but I suspect the absolute performance zenith is likely to be achieved when you switch the 15-24v adapter off (which is how I use mine).

 

This has been sounding so good that I now have an exactly similar arrangement for the MinDSP 22D which performs the Dirac impulse room correction, and am working on one for the Pi, (ie ‘the dirty side) too 😁 where it seems attention to power does make a significant difference.

 

Hope that helps?

[RX8R3ROD]

Exactly that, and the wondom manages any overcharging or imbalance between cells as the batteries age, which has always bothered me just a little bit with the basic raw battery packs like Allo’s. 😁  

 

A big ‘well done’ to the designer. 👍

 

The only (really, really tiny) complaint I have is that whilst there are separate LED’s for the two battery states of charging and charged, it would have been even nicer if they’d been different colours. Still, that should be easily fixable if it’s bothersome...

[RX8R3ROD]

4 hours ago, InfinitelyBaffled said:

For those of you that switched to battery power for the clean side - is there a specific song or album that you have found to really demonstrate the differences when using batteries? I'd like to know..

 

I put together a simple and inexpensive battery pack (4 AA's in series - 5.5v/2500 mAh) and have been going back and forth listening from my battery pack to my Twisted Pear power supply, and I am struggling to hear any improvement in the sound with the batteries. The Twisted Pear power supply has so much power reserve with the giant smoothing capacitor, I just think I am at the peak of performance from a power supply. But I'm not giving up yet - I'd be glad to A/B test some more samples before giving up on batteries if you guys have some good suggestions.

If you want to experience (at least in my experience 😁) what batteries are really capable of you should try 18650’s )instead of AA’s) into Supercaps followed by a superreg.

 

This IME is a very significant improvement on just 18650’s, which are themselves a significant step up from AA cells.

 

I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised... 😉 and you’ll hear it on everything 👍

[RX8R3ROD]

Yes, you need to follow it with a simple voltage regulator, like the one shown here.

 

https://www.instructables.com/id/Basic-5-Volt-Power-Supply/

 

This will sound really good, replacing the capacitors they show with Panasonic OSCONs and WIMA film capacitors for the small ones will make it better still, and only cost you 5 or 6 quid.

 

Adding some Supercaps in place of the big input capacitor (say 12 or 15v, 1 or 2F) will make it sound even better. (£10 to £20)

 

All of this is available from Farnell or RS Components.

 

And replacing the 7805 regulator with something like a New Class D 5v regulator or a Belleson 5v (£40 ish) will make it better still.

 

Some folks recommend the LT3042 or LT3045. I’m not so keen personally, but at £10 or less you might find they’re just the ticket?

 

Hope that helps 😁

[RX8R3ROD]

All I can say from my experience is it’s well worth experimenting, and it’s safest to assume little or nothing.

 

You may find that all the caps or Supercaps you try sound different and some suit you far better than others, and regulators sound different too, and some of these suit your tastes far more than others.

 

My wife can reliably tell the differences with these, and she absolutely makes no claims to golden ears 😁

 

The lipo batteries probably sound different, too, though glad to report I’ve not tried comparing 😀

 

But the main thing is to have fun, and enjoy! 👍

[RX8R3ROD]

58 minutes ago, dmormerod said:

 

Yep, that helps a lot, although I'm in the US so alas no Farnell or RS  I've ordered an equivalent item from Amazon, along with a bunch of other stuff to see if I can make something reasonable :

 

 

I already have a GX16-2 to USB-C cable on it's way from Ghent, hence the GX connectors. So I just need a regulator to drop the 12v output and should be good. I guess it will go one of 2 ways, a puff of smoke or musical bliss!

My apologies on that! 

 

It looks like you’ve got a really nice treasure-trove of goodies arriving. 👍

 

I’m pretty sure Dr.J got a NewClassD superregulator direct in the US, and the Belleson ones are made in the US, so I’m sure you’ll have plenty of good choices on regs! 😀 And of course if you’re building on a breadboard you can always buy a low-cost standard 7805 first and swap it for a superreg later.

 

I have fried a few Supercaps when being a bit lazy pre-Wondom, but that has short-circuit protection, etc built in so IMHO chances of musical bliss are high, and puffs of smoke low!

 

But if you think I can be of any help in trying to avoid puffs of smoke, do say (no smoke signals 😁).

 

And good luck!! 

 

 

[RX8R3ROD]

6 minutes ago, Reverso said:

90 Degree RCA Adapter

 

Cable routing was unwieldily with the DS, so I picked up a 90 Degree RCA Adapter for the coax out.  Now all of the cables can be routed to the back of the unit.  $10 well spent to tidy up the unit.

 

-Reverso

 

Really neat idea IMHO! 👍 😁

[RX8R3ROD]

59 minutes ago, rruffin said:

 

No, the Signature does not sound sharp in my system, but the sound changes based on how the clean side is powered. I have found that the top end is the least "sharp" (or most beautiful) is when the clean side is powered by batteries...

Same here, IME the Signature has a very insightful but nicely smooth sound, especially when battery-powered, and (IME in my system and with my audio preferences) extra-especially when the batteries are further filtered and regulated 😁.

 

And with good filtering and regulation the iFi iPower sounds pretty darn good, too!

[RX8R3ROD]

3 minutes ago, nbpf said:

No, what is meant to be the advantage of the eMMC over a standard micro SD card?

Good question, thanks 😀 I was wondering that too ...

[RX8R3ROD]

Hi, the clean input is the one that definitely appears to benefit most from the battery power.

 

I think many ofus use a normal power adapter of some kind on the dirty side, but as my powering of the clean side has got better, I have been able to better appreciate that how we power the dirty side does make quite a difference to sound quality. That’s despite all that galvanic isolation etc in the Signature.

 

I’m currently running a grounded iPower 5v into 2 iFi DC iPurifier 2’s into the dirty side, and you can hear the effects of each iPurifier, just as you can measure their effect clearly on an oscilloscope.

 

However, whether that’s solely due to the impact the iPurifiers have on the input to the Pi and / or whether it’s because they help deal with all the noise the Pi generates on the DC line is hard to say. Probably a bit of both, I suspect.

 

I am currently working on a battery power solution for the Pi as some rough tests suggested there’s benefit to be had from this, but because the Pi apparently won’t accept more than 5.25V, the batteries (assuming use of 18650’s) must be regulated to between 5 and 5.25V.

 

Still, as for my tastes in my system the regulated batteries sound better PRaT-wise than unregulated ones, that can only be a good thing! 👍

[RX8R3ROD]

15 minutes ago, rruffin said:

 

I don't know, but it is an option when ordering on the Allo website. (I have a friend who is considering the Signature and asked me, so I though that I would post.)

 

Allo?

Ah, interesting one then. I must admit I’d never noticed... Doh! 

 

At least 2 for Allo then 😁

[RX8R3ROD]

46 minutes ago, linuxfox said:

 

It did at the beginning because of a "very" noisy power supply connected to the dirty side. Even using the battery on the clean side, If I do not keep the noise away from the dirty side and from the network cable, I get an hint of sharpness.

My advice is:

- change the power supply connected to the dirty side, it doesn't have to be expensive or audiophile... first try the smartphone/tablet usb chargers that you already own.

- try to minimize the noise coming from the network cable using ferrite chokes. You can further lower the noise using "low noise network switches" (cisco catalyst switches have a good reputation for being low noise).

 

Totally agree, 👍 IME the dirty side does make a significant difference (albeit less than the clean side).

 

Even quite low-cost items like an Apple iPhone charger have quite low noise and ripple (though not sure what ampage It can pump out) and can match or beat some (alleged) ‘audiophile’(ish) power supplies, so it’s not necessarily just a question of chucking a heap of money at the problem 😀

 

By way of example this is an interesting set of comparisons (clicking the graphic below should act as the link)