Allo Digione Signature

[RX8R3ROD]

 

[RX8R3ROD]

Me too looking forward to hearing what you find ?

[RX8R3ROD]

Hi, 

 

I assume both switches have the same effect with hdd access?

 

If so, is there a rating on the switch / packaging / advertising... it could be possible that the RPi + hdd exceeds the switch rating, which may possibly cause problems? I think from memory mine were rated at 2 amps and up to 24v?

 

There are many reports of people experiencing Pi hdd access problems and solving them via a powered usb hub, or similar.

 

Are you able to power the hdd separately temporarily? If you can and the problem goes away that may indicate a load issue ... or 2 really dodgy switches... 

 

As to whether the switches affect the quality of the power supply you’d think it might to some extent, wouldn’t you? But then on the Pi kit we use all sorts of cheap, horrible little adapters and cables (something nbpf has commented on a few times, I think?), and it sounds great anyway. No Nordost Odin here ... though perhaps that’s a market opportunity ?

 

I get back home at the end of the week so sometime over the weekend or next week I’ll see if I can measure any effect on my ‘scope.

 

But you do raise a really good point; perhaps better cabling would make the sound even better? I do have a recollection years ago of buying an upgrade dc cable (about £150, Or thereabout, I think) for the feed between the power supply and the motor of a Michell Gyrodeck, and there being a definite improvement ...

[RX8R3ROD]

Thanks for the heads-up on these! ?

 

I guess as they’ve just arrived you’ve not yet had much of a chance to relax, put your feet up, and have a really good listen?

 

But when you do, please do also tell us your findings!! ?

[RX8R3ROD]

IMHO it’s well worth a try, the different power sources can sound quite different... as you’ve already discovered by varying your input voltage ?

[RX8R3ROD]

You are indeed correct, AFAIK it has to be 5v, I really should have made that clear.

 

It’s easy to forget when you have a pile of 5v regulators and caps to hand, plus various combinations of 2, 3 and 4 serial battery packs.

 

So thanks for flagging that up.?

 

Look forward to hearing the results of your tests on the cables ?

[RX8R3ROD]

Great to hear it’s sounding so good! ?

 

You may perhaps be experiencing variability (ripple, noise, etc.) in the power from the national grid? My supply is very variable at particular times of day when I’ve tracked it.

 

It seems the Signature is more than transparent enough to tell us stuff like that ...

[RX8R3ROD]

A bit more on batteries v mains, and the effects of switches in the power feeds.

 

I replaced the existing supercap in my supply with several smaller, faster supercaps in series, so it’s running around 3Farads. Then I replaced the iPower feed into it with the Allo battery pack.

 

You can see the measurement results in the charts above. From the top (all post-capacitors and regulation) grounded iPower, grounded iPower plus DC iPurifier, 

18650 batteries. The 18650 batteries plus DC iPurifier measured under -135db in my system, so basically didn’t appear on the graph, even with a switch in-circuit.

 

So the batteries (with a lot of super-capacitor buffer and super-regulation) measure significantly better than the iPower (with similar) in my system, and with my mains supply.

 

How does it sound (bearing in mind my main thing is PRaT and noise / ripple figures arguably only tell us a little bit about power supply sound) and what’s the ranking (worst first to best last)?

 

1. iPower 

2. Batteries

3. iPower plus supercaps and superregs

4. batteries plus supercaps and superregs

 

Though 4. Sounds better than 3. to my PRaT-yearning ears, it doesn’t sound anything like as much of an improvement as the measurements might suggest, and occasionally, though not that often, it sounds a bit ‘limp’ in comparison to 3.

 

For those not so PRaT-centric, 4. Is smoother, more detailed with significantly better note decay when other loud transients are starting. So, for example, a piano note will die out more slowly and evenly, and with better pitch definition, when a singer lets rip.

 

In summary I’d say if you’re not PRaT-centric you might be likely to prefer 4. To 3. (In my system, at least) but if you are PRaT-centric, it’s a closer call.

 

 

 

[RX8R3ROD]

Hi all,

 

I imagine I can’t be the only one who might be thinking ‘I wonder how the Allo Katana compares to the DigiOne Signature?’

 

My Katana arrived a few days ago (nicely packed, nothing rattling around ?) and I got it going today.

 

Initial impressions (obviously it’s not run in yet, and I haven’t yet got Roon working with a purely ‘software’ version of Dirac room correction to match my MiniDSP 22D with modded power supply, so this weights things in the Signature’s favour a little) are that it’s of a broadly similar level of performance to the Signature fed into my Teac UD501 DAC.

 

This is using the isolator v1.2 or 3?, and (almost) the 2 power supplies I am using to power the Signature currently, but without the Supercaps, which does make a difference IME.

 

However, the Katana let’s you power the analogue op-amp board with separate power supplies if you so wish. Seeing how important the power supplies have been on the Signature, and reading other comments suggests they are as important on the Katana, I think I do do wish! ?

 

Soooo ... next steps are to put together a couple of battery and supercap supplies for the + and - rails on the op-amp board, and see where that takes us performance-wise (as well as trying to get a purely ‘software’ version of DIRAC talking nicely with Roon to deliver time-and-frequency-based room correction).

 

But based on initial impressions I have high hopes ?

[RX8R3ROD]

Great to hear you have the system sounding as you want it?

 

So so much nicer when it’s a source of joy rather than frustration, eh? ?

 

And from a person perspective really good to hear from a fellow 22D user; something a lot of folks could, IMHO, potentially benefit from.

 

You seem to have achieved a lot of effective system optimisation via the power supplies.

 

In hindsight I wish I’d explored this aspect of system performance rather earlier, compared to, say, swapping cables... doubly frustrating considering the amps have always majored on power supplies. Why did I not get that it applied elsewhere, too? ?

[RX8R3ROD]

4 minutes ago, linuxfox said:

Sorry I'll try to be more specific. The Allo Digione Signature (with the Aqvox usb power supply) sounds less dynamic and engaging than the audiophilleo2 (whith the Aqvox power supply). They both feed a Naim Dac. The audiophilleo is a very good match for the Naim Dac but is a little too forward for me (it seems that all the instrument are very close to the listener). This problem is solved with the Allo Digione Signature but I'm missing the dynamic sound of the audiophilleo. A solution that beats them all is using the usb port of the NDac with an usb stick with wav files: so I know that the Ndac can sound a lot better and I'm trying to find a soltution that goes closer to the usb stick performance. Did you compare the Ndac usb input with wav files vs the Allo Digione Signature with LPS-1.2? How they differ?

Thank you

 

I have an Aqvox usbbpower supply, and compared to the SMPS power supplies you get with many products it’s a really big improvement IME.

 

However, although it puts out a lot less HF noise than your average SMPS, I don’t think it’s ripple specification is especially good (there are only so many components one can fit into a small space, I guess?).

 

if you want to hear more of what the Signature is capable of without throwing a load of loot at it, you could try a 2 x 18650 batteries and an Amazon battery holder, or 4x 18650 batteries and an Allo battery holder.

 

This will, IME, outperform the Aqvox quite comfortably. 

 

Hope that may be of help?

[RX8R3ROD]

2 hours ago, linuxfox said:

Thank you for your suggestion. I have ordered the battery holder and tomorrow I'll do a comparison test

It’ll be really interesting to hear how you get on!

 

I’m still experimenting but so far I find the basic battery supply is better than, say, a basic iFi iPower, but add regulation and supercaps to an iPower and it’s better than batteries. Add regulation and supercaps to batteries and it’s a step up from the equivalent iPower (all in my system, with my electricity supply, and with my particular audio preferences).

 

Adding a DC iPurifier improves things further, and adding 2 in series moreso.

 

So I guess if you like the direction the batteries take you, and you find the sound significantly less disappointing than your initial experience, you have the option of then taking the sound a fair bit further without massive expenditure.

 

Do tell us how you find it, and good luck!  ?

[RX8R3ROD]

Some really interesting findings there thanks! ?

 

You can use an inline switch to stop the need to connect/ disconnect between sessions for which I’ve not been able to measure any negative effects, though haven’t had time to concentrate on listening for those yet, bearing in mind @nbpf ‘s experiences with cables on the Signature.

 

I shall have to explore the 22D power supply rather more; really appreciate the pointer on that!! ?

 

I too made an assumption about those converters in the MiniDSP, and just made a basic regulator /cap setup for it. But it sounds like it’s worth going the whole hog! Lucky I ordered a batch of New Class D superregulaters and supercaps to play with over Christmas ?

[RX8R3ROD]

And, important though it undoubtedly is, there is a little bit more to it than jitter alone, ... such as EMI and RFI, as you say.

 

Just changing capacitors in the power supply can make a significant difference to how muddy / tight / boomy / etc the DS sounds.

 

Whilst the capacitors themselves may affect jitter (something beyond my ability to measure reliably given my current tools) they certainly affect the ‘speed’ of the power supply, and some combinations will work rather better with some systems and recordings than others.

 

For example, in my system using Implulse TD712Z’s with just 4” single drivers, there’s tons of speed but relatively limited bass.

 

One type of supercap can add a beautiful, meaty ‘whack’ to (for example) the drums in Terence Trent Darby’s Wishing Well so that that they time (to my ears)  phenomenonally well, but muddle the interplay between bass and piano in, for example, Temptation by Diana Krall. Other supercaps reverse the effect, and the ESR values in the different caps are quite different, which is thought, at least in part, to explain this effect.

 

Perhaps something to bear in mind, and possibly why it can be such a struggle to get a system that sounds consistently good across many recordings and musical styles.

[RX8R3ROD]

2 hours ago, Flyman said:

Well guys a bit Confused...

 

with method is the best...bnc to bnc or coaxial to coaxial? Also a vfm cable suggestion would be a help.

 

What about coaxial to coaxial vs bnc to coaxial?

 

second thing the power.the dirty side with allo psu.ok that's ok.

ypu say for the clean side 7v...5v....but the 18650 as i know is 3,7v for the battery pack.also if there is a 7v battery....did it damage the card?for all that thing that i read there isn't reason for so much voltage.

 

maybe a newbie question...i have an ifi ipower 9v...can i use it in the dirty side or not?

 

Ps...ihave for now a raspberry pi3 b+ And i use with a powerbank with a very good results in sound.better than my linear power supply.so why in the dirty side you can't use a powerbank?

Hi,

 

Hopefully in answer to your questions on the power side ...

 

As you say, the clean side can be powered with more than 5v.

 

A freshly charged 18650 may be giving off 4.2 volts each (mine do) so you’re getting 8.4 volts from the Allo battery pack.

 

I’m not aware anyone has reported damaging their Signature using the Allo battery pack; there are voltage regulators in the Signature to help prevent this. Recent advice from Allo doesn’t recommend going much above this, though ...

 

The Allo Katana, which I’m currently experimenting with, seems similar.

 

However the dirty side input feeds the Pi, and for safety I stick to 5v for that. 

 

I doubt there is the component or thermal budget in the Pi - despite the obvious economies of scale on the component side - to have LDO’s here, there and everywhere, and I’ve never felt the need to sacrifice a Pi to find out.

 

You could use your 9v iPower and regulate it’s output to 5v into the dirty side. It’s easy to do, and - in my case anyway - has a useful jump in sound quality compared to the Allo SMPS.

 

As you’ve discovered, the old ‘LPS good, SMPS bad’ mantra is not necessarily true these days (though I guess it probably is likely to hold when comparing a £1 SMPS to a £100 LPS)

 

And provided you have a 5v setting and / or USB port on your powerbank that can deliver enough amps (probably around 2 - 2.5 for start-up, depending on your Pi configuration and hardware, though some don’t seem to require quite so much) the powerbank should be fine on the dirty side and may well improve sound over the Allo SMPS. 

 

Have fun ?

 

 

 

 

[RX8R3ROD]

My bad reading, I suspect ... my apologies!

 

3.7 volts is the nominal value of an 18650 battery, but when you fully charge it and measure the voltage straight away with a multimeter it will often be around 4.2 volts (2 x 4.2 volts = 8.4).

 

But as you play the Signature the battery voltage will slowly drop to 3.7 volts and then gradually drop to a point where the Signature won’t play until the batteries are recharged.

 

hope that was a more helpful andwer?

[RX8R3ROD]

Batteries, particularly 18650’s, are quite hard to beat. Some people on here have tried them against well-regarded LPS’s and found the batteries at least as good.

 

You can see some comparisons here, (click the table below) and notice that the top performer is ... a fairly cheap battery. 

 

 

You can improve the battery supply (at least to my ears and in my system) by wiring it in to supercaps, which can release energy significantly more quickly than the batteries can. This improves the timing part of PRaT at very least, and seems to make transients quicker and cleaner.

 

And yes, you can power the dirty side (the RPi) with batteries provided they are 5v output. However they won’t last for days of continuous playing like the 18650’s will powering the Signature.

 

Allo is apparently working on a super power supply called the Nirvana, with luck we may see that soon ?

[RX8R3ROD]

Hi. This link shows how to build a simple and cheap but effective 5v power supply, based on a simple 9v battery.

 

https://www.instructables.com/id/Basic-5-Volt-Power-Supply/

 

If you replace the 9v battery with a 9v or 12v iPower, or 8.4 volts of 18650 battery power (you probably want to use 3 18650’s as a battery source to give you somewhere between ~ 10volts minimum to 12.6 volts maximum to give your regulator enough voltage to work with) you have regulated either iPower or batteries to 5v ... just what you need. ?

 

Once you have that working you can start experimenting with different regulators and capacitors and supercaps to improve the sound.

 

They can sound surprisingly different and on a breadboard as per the link are really easy to change until you find a combination that works optimally in your system.

 

The best super-regulators I have found are NewClassD, and they cost about 40euro each (well worth it in my opinion and a big thank you to Dr J for the pointer) but you might start with basic (and nice and cheap) 7805 regulators at just a few euro each and Panasonic OSCON and WIMA film capacitors to start experimenting with, and then replace with Superregs and supercaps as and when feel ready.

 

Supercaps are a bit more costly than OSCONs and it pays to read up on them to understand how they work, as you mustn’t exceed their voltage limits.

 

Any good, branded, 18650 batteries (such as Panasonic, Samsung or LG) should be fine, as they should be properly tested. I would personally avoid any brands that are not well known.

 

You can use exactly the same techniques to power the dirty side with batteries.

 

Hope that helps?

 

If you have any other questions and you think the forum can help, please feel free. ?

[RX8R3ROD]

1 hour ago, Shangri-La said:

I still dont understand this: the clean board claims to use 5V but how do 2X3.7 V 18650 work with the board? Maybe it works in 5 ~ 7V range and the dirty board has a limited working voltage range?

That is precisely how I understand it, the clean side takes up to about 8.5 volts or so (18650 batteries freshly charged can be 4.2 volts) and has good voltage regulation.

 

My understanding is that the dirty side (Raspberry Pi) has less ‘flexibility’ on input voltage.

[RX8R3ROD]

2 hours ago, rruffin said:

My DigiOne Signature Player is now toast! 

 

I accidentally plugged the battery pack (that I usually use for the clean side) into the dirty side. Heard a burning sound and I smelt burning. Unplugged quickly. After letting the unit rest, I plugged in the battery pack for the clean side and the wall wart to the dirty side. The green lights and red light started flashing, but the unit did not start up.

 

Does this make sense? 

 

If not, then the only other thing done differently this time - I use an adapter (from the iFi 5v) to connect the battery pack to the cable supplied by Allo (plugged into the clean side). The adapter usually is connected to the battery pack. This time, the adapter was in the Allo cable (plugged into the clean side) and I plugged in the battery pack into the non-adapter cable going into the dirty side. 

 

I am kinda in shock, so I may not be reporting this accurately.

 

I sent a message to allo.

Really sorry to hear about your problem!

 

I’m sure Allo will reply to you on this.

 

But if you’ve unfortunately (and many of us have done this sort of thing at least once, ... I fried a bunch of Supercaps last week - Doh! ?) fried anything by accident, I think it’ll just be the Raspberry Pi part of your Signature player, which is easy and much cheaper to replace than your Signature boards.

 

Maybe there’s a sign here for us all to colour code the inputs from our power supplies?

 

Hope you can get it sorted quickly! ?

[RX8R3ROD]

12 hours ago, quanghuy147 said:

Hi RX8R3ROD,

Have your Allo Boss DAC arrived? Have you tried it? Is it good?

Hi,

 

Thanks for asking!

 

I am now also the proud owner of an Allo Katana. Initial responses are good, but am letting it bed in and will do some serious comparisons next week ?

[RX8R3ROD]

4 minutes ago, Spenagio said:

I read in the instructions that 29v is max.

I have batteries coming on monday, so was hoping to get it burned in for then. Perhaps will try alternative.

 

You are absolutely correct that it does say 29v somewhere in the Allo documents, but more recent advice from Allo is to keep it to around 8.5 volts (or thereabouts) or less 

[RX8R3ROD]

8 minutes ago, Spenagio said:

Tried it. Still no sound.

 

Roon sees both the bridge and airplay, but fails to play, just stays at the start of each track with no sound, then moves on to another track.

 

ANNOYING.

I have had this problem, where it would play about the first ten seconds of a track (with no sound) then jump to the next, do the same, then again and again.

 

In my case it was, from memory, associated with me incorrectly powering the clean side... so it might be worth checking that?

[RX8R3ROD]

On 12/28/2018 at 11:15 PM, quanghuy147 said:

Hi RX8R3ROD,

Have your Allo Boss DAC arrived? Have you tried it? Is it good?

Hi, The Katana is bedding in nicely, got the opamp board powered separately by batteries (so Katans is running 3 power supplies) and should get the Supercaps in that over the weekend. 

 

Without the opamp board powered separately (in my system, for my musical preferences) the Katana is good, but with the opamp board powered with its own +/- 15v supply it’s really very, very good. 😁

 

Hope to get the 4th power supply option running in a couple of weeks time, and see what that gives us. 

 

I have 7 DC iPurifiers dotted around the 3 power supplies, and they do make a surprising difference (again, my system, my musical preferences), along with a few AC iPurifiers as well.

[RX8R3ROD]

11 minutes ago, Spenagio said:

just swapped the clean side, it's a 12v, will give it a try, otherwise I will buy a cheap 5/6v tomorrow and wait for my batteries to arrive, thank you all for chipping in very much appreciated

Best of luck, the cheap 5 / 6v should get you up and running with any luck! 🤞