A crowd funded motherboard(s) for audiophiles - Part 2

[lateboomer]

I voted Micro-ITX but I not sure it can accommodate 4 pcie slots. Previous thread said 3 only pcie are possible, which 2 for nic card and 1 for usb card. So may I ask what the another pcie slot for?

[lateboomer]

46 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Over here, a single lt3045 powered 4 port usb card connects a USB 3 nic, USB HDD, and ISO Regen/DAC. All the motherboard based NICs, USB interfaces and SATA ports are disabled in bios or software. So with two direct PCie slots, one for the USB card and one for the Optane adapter all is good. 

 

Roy was right and this configuration addresses his issues. 

 

Make sense? BTW, 4 of us CAers run systems this way today all booting from Optane drives. 3 of us run with 2 split power supplies for the motherboard.

My current setup is running Daphile boot on its own Ext4 partition and with music storage on seperate Exfat partition at Samsung EVO SSD drive supplied with external lps and also connected with SATA filter card. I have tried music storage at minipro ext 2TB HDD before with lps but connected to motherboard usb port didn't sound as good.
Won't the USB HDD with more spinning parts and lower speed is lesser in SQ compared with SSD in this suggestion? Are SATA ports required to go through PCH as well?

And quote "A direct to CPU m.2 nvme x4 lanes slot is a substitute for one of the pcie slots above." doesn't give us the capability to power it with external lps which is better, am I right?
 

[lateboomer]

19 minutes ago, lmitche said:

I haven't found an SSD that didn't sound like a blanket on the sound.  I much prefer my lt3045 powered 3.5 inch HDD. People talk about SLC SSD being OK, but it's an old technology.  Optane boot drives are new, two more models were introduced today, and are extremely fast and quiet. Over here, Optane is only one of two active devices enabled on the PCH, the other being the HPT.

I agreed that implementing good lps with adequate noise filtering for SSD is very challenging. I am open minded with this 3.5 inch HDD, but is it not desktop internal SATA drive which needs another conversion to become USB HDD? Won't this conversion to USB HDD be noisy? I know I am paranoid.

[lateboomer]

I would prefer mAtx with 3 pcies slots. First pcie is for Optane boot drive, 2nd pcie is for either SSD or USB HDD (plus USB 3 nic if needed) for music storage, then the last pcie is for dedicated usb card for audio.

 

I don't doubt the Startech 4-port usb card is doing superb job giving excellent SQ at Larry's system, but is it not 4-port usb card connects a USB 3 nic, USB HDD, and ISO Regen/DAC sharing too many activities and switching between themselves on the same pcie lane?  If it is mAtx with 4 pcies slots, then I would put in one Elfidelity Filter Card at the 4th pcie slot but I not sure how effective it is. 

[lateboomer]

15 minutes ago, rickca said:

It's a 4-port, dual channel, x4 card installed in a PCIe slot that is directly connected to the CPU.  I've got one powered by an external LPS-1.  The ISO REGEN/DAC and USB HDD are on different USB channels.  Typically, the USB3 NIC and USB HDD (for music files) aren't used concurrently.  The USB NIC is used for streaming.

 

I don't use the Optane SSD.  My OS is on an X25-M SSD with a SOtM SATA II filter powered by an external PH SR4.

Thank you for the info. I don't use Optane SSD either. I am also using Samsung EVO ssd powered by lps and filtered by Elfidelity filter card. However, from the previous thread I read it seems implying SATA ports also have to go through PCH which is no good in SQ, that is why I am thinking Optane SSD run from pcie slot as suggested. 

[lateboomer]

Is it not the previous thread suggested m.2 direct to cpu can be achieved by m.2 adapter for pcie? In that case there is no need to wait further?

[lateboomer]

I am not knowledgeable in pc but could you enlighten what is lack of with this motherboard P10S-M with Socket LGA 1151 which highlighted by Seeteeyou? Since it has 3 pcie in 8x 4x 4x configurations which direct connect to cpu, then it should be more than enough to be used for this project. Is it not?

[lateboomer]

I have implemented the supermicro X10SBA powered with lps and both the storage SATA SSD and USB audio card also powered with lps in last weekend. For the first time I can clearly say the sound achieved is as good as or even better than my competent cd transport which heavily modified with lps. It also beats my another lps powered Asrock J3455B-itx motherboard with about 10% improvement.

[lateboomer]

25 minutes ago, lmitche said:

This Asus WS product looks to be exactly what we need in a core 7 class motherboard. Unfortunately core 7 has already been made obsolete with the rollout of core 8 and 9 processors. As a result z270 motherboard production is being discontinued by many manufacturers including Asus.

 

The next generation processors from Intel and AMD appear to support more direct PCie lanes, with mores cores in lower wattage packages. Today any investment in time or money made in a new CPU or motherboard is likely to be obsolete in less then 6 months. Therefore I am going to wait until things calm down.

Thank you for the explanation. I think it is ok to wait for at least 6 months as you said because thing is so flux now. But i also tempted to try out this p10s-m to compare with supermicro.

[lateboomer]

I am running Daphile on a 16GB USB 3.0 thumb drive, and music storage is on lps powered and heavily noise-filtered Samsung EVO 850 500 GB SSD on Supermicro board. Where else at Asrock board, Daphile is on its own Ext4 partition and music storage on seperate exFat partition with largest allocation block. I believe putting the OS on the SSD with its own partition gives the best sound so I am still trying to figure out how to do it for Supermicro board. 

 

I think the shortcoming of majority of pc music as compared to advanced cd transport or vinyl is the mid cannot "go down" enough or not enough decay or extension to make it sounds very analog. I have no issue with dynamic and transparency, but without fuller mid from top to bottom and steady center image you don't feel the singers are very "committed" in the presentation as analog. But with this Supermicro and more importantly specially tweaked lps for each computer sections, the presentation is totally analog and musical.

 

I wish I know how to use good recording mic to record down the sound and post it here as proof. There is why I am also very tempted to try out the P10S-M board suggested here to compare with Supermicro. :-)  Anyway, I think your avatar is very cool.

[lateboomer]

I finally able to install Daphile rt version to the SSD's partition. I also disable all usb ports except usb3.0 port, disable one lan port and disable SATA1 and moved the SSD from less ideal SATA1 to SATA0 which doesn't go through MUX switch. And most importantly, I use direct  mb's usb3.0 port for audio output instead of an old tx-usbExp card inherited from CAPS2.0. I think the usb card has a lot of filtering ferrite cores which limits the mid and cut away a lot of micro dynamic and depth. So the Supermicro board now is really lived up to its reviews and I am very happy. So now I wonder do I still need to consider ISO-Regen.

[lateboomer]

Initially I felt disappointed this is no more near the performance of Zenith MK2 SE which highly praised. Then I tried to disable pcie from bios and move usb audio to mobo's usb 3.0 port, everything opened up with enough density and musicality. Then only I felt a bit relief. Another great improvement is I change the network switch from from plastic-case Tp-link to Netgear GS108 suggested by JS.  

 

I can only dream about txusbhubin at this moment. And the best I will try may be is Iso-Regen, however the old Regen and the amber Regen no more a plus for my system that makes me hesitate to try iso-regen. I also read about Intona also very good. I feel a bit perverse if the enhancement kits are much more expensive than the server. But I am very tempted no doubt.

[lateboomer]

I am refering to the Supermicro x10sba-l-b bought from Amazon which gives better sq with the mobo's usb3 port at the bottom, the top one is usb2 which is disabled. I use multiple ext lps with separate rails and transformers for 5v, 3.3v and 12v. Dedicated 12v to the 4pin atx molex and also separate lps to the usb card and ssd. The usb card is the old version tx-usbEXp which has only one usb port and clean lps is connected to its mulex input connector. On Supermicro the sound from the card was Very clean and quiet but the mid was lifeless and no music ambient, the vertical size of music was compressed. However, my another asrock j3455b-itx mobo it was better SQ  with the usb card and opposite to the Supermicro. That is Why i suspect the card has over the top noise filtering which is over designed for Supermicro.

[lateboomer]

1 hour ago, rickca said:

What are you powering with 3.3v?  Can you give some more detail about what LPS you are using and how they are connected to the motherboard/components?

All lps are built by my little brother whom is also audio nut like me. Most of the time we work on the system until wee hour of 5am during weekend to improve the system. For each voltage 5v, 3.3v and 12v he uses multiple transformers with regulators and capacitors and filtering design to built separate power supply for each voltage. Then I source for 24 AWG star quad high purity Van Damm microphone cable (20 Awg is too expensive and we are cheapskate) from Funnel as dc cable which he will connect them to abandon ATX 24 pin connector which trimmed as short as possible obviously to be used as mobo power connector. 

Hope that answers everything. About the usb2 is sounding better than usb3, I have not compared them yet but thank you for the pointer. I will try it.

 

Anyway, could anyone suggest a good recording mic or system to record audio system's  sounding in a room in stereo mode? I would like to post my system's sounding here to get advice.

 

 

[lateboomer]

I would like to ask could better SQ be had by using one Startech 2-port 3.1 gen2 card for this Supermicro X10SBA mobo and move the SATA ssd (os + music) and ethernet (not for streaming, only control) to the card? Then I can totally disable SATA port and Lan port together. Rickca had advised the Supermicro's pcie x 2 gen2.0 doesn't support pcie x 4 for Startech 4-port 3.1 card, but Amazon's Q&A section says this 2-port card can run at pcie x 2 with scale down performance.

[lateboomer]

50 minutes ago, rickca said:

I don't know why you would want to do this.  I use the Startech card on an ATX motherboard to get USB ports from a PCIe slot that is directly connected to the CPU rather than the chipset.  You don't have a separate chipset on your X10SBA.  So I really don't know whether what you're proposing would result in better SQ.

 

Thank you for the info, I am referring to this card:

https://www.amazon.com/Startech-Com-PEXUSB312A-10Gbps-Green-Stainless/dp/B013HT6K3Q

 

The Supermicro mobo has one pcie x2 (in x8) slot so at least it can accommodate this card. I am thinking if I can shift both SATA and LAN to the usb card, it will cut down the electronics activities on the mobo to minimum which is ideal. Lmitche thinks all ssd have some sort of glare in sounding and more noisy, so he prefers HDD. So may be I could test out the usb HDD or usb SSD with this card to minimize noise passes to mobo. 

[lateboomer]

2 hours ago, lmitche said:

For two ports, this is the one you want: https://www.startech.com/Cards-Adapters/USB-3.0/Cards/2-port-usb-3-1-card~PEXUSB312A2

 

There is a 4 port model as well that is twice the two port model on one card. 

 

You can power both externally. I use a lps-1 at 7 volts followed by two 1 amp lt3045s at 6 and 5 volts. The USB NIC, HDD and DAC are all connected to this card.

 

Make sure to load the Startech (Asmedia) driver.

Since Supermicro can only do pcie x2 gen2.0 at max 5Gb/s, then 4-port card is not much use and then for 2-port card I could only either shift dac or Lan connection from mobo to this card?

 

If I stick with Daphile Linux player, I don't think the Asmedia driver is needed, am I right?

[lateboomer]

If I want to convert Samsung 850 EVO ssd to usb ssd, does anyone get good sound quality with this usb ssd/hdd dock which can be supplied with lps?

https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-10Gbps-Dual-Bay-Dock-SATA/dp/B00XLAZ9KC/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1521481421&sr=8-6&keywords=startech+usb+sata+ssd

 

Or should I go simpler approach with this adapter?

https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-10Gbps-Adapter-Cable-Drives/dp/B00XLAZODE/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1521481421&sr=8-5&keywords=startech+usb+sata+ssd

[lateboomer]

I just received the Startech 4-port 10Gbps card, an usb adapter for ssd and an Ethernet usb nic. First, I tried to compare the difference between usb2.0 and usb3.0 ports on motherboard, which only one was enable and the rest disable and vice verse. In the end to our ears usb3.0 was sounding better then usb2.0 for Supermicro x10sba-l. Usb3.0 gave fuller and better transient sounding compared with usb2.0, you could feel that something was holding the music back when listened with usb2.0.

 

I taught this was the best sounding the Supermicro can achieved and was very hard to beat it until I tested the Startech usb card and moved Ethenet, SSD and usb audio output to the card and disable all the ports from the mobo. The SQ was so good that I taught I had reached my audio nirvana. I supplied separate clean 5v power supply to the sdd adapter through a modified usb3.0 A-male-to-A-female connector.

 

What is sweeter is my system is only very moderate system as such:

Speakers: Triangle Esprit Antal 

Cables : Oehlbach XLR rca and Supra Sword speaker cables.

Amp : Musical Fidelity M6 integrated

Dac : Mirand Dac with heavily modified lps for both digital and analog sections.

 

I would like to give a big shout out and thank you to lmitche to bring this card to our attention. As previously stated, I was not so trilled with my old tX-USBexp card but this Startech card really blows my mind away. I tried to supply very clean lps to the card.  I have recorded some music from my system's playback with Zoom H1 recorder in 24 bit 96 khz and decided to share it here. All my music is 44.1 khz ripped from cds and no upsampling applied in playback.

 

02_SupermStartech_20180402.WAV

 

 

 

[lateboomer]

I shut down all the SATA, usb and LAN ports on the mobo. The OS is Daphile player running in its own partition on the usb SSD, and the music storage on different partition on the usb SSD. And yes the usb audio to the dac is at the bottom port and different channel from the usb SSD and Ethernet nic. The Ethernet nic is running very light and almost none existence and only for control playback on the Daphile. Another huge contributor is I changed the usb cable to Phasure Lush usb cable and this brings the playback to much higher level. It is also not to forget the whole mobo is supplied with multiple rails of lps to its ATX power connector. 

 

With all these improvements it makes me think the great sound is coming from outsourcing all the usb and SATA activities to a very fast usb card and relieves the heavy lifting from the mobo.

 

So I wonder if I to get one Sparky Allo USBridge and supply it with lps powered usb SSD, would the SQ be as good as Supermicro with much simpler built and lower cost? Also could I achieve better SQ than Supermicro by getting one P10S-M mobo as suggested here which has more pcie slots connected with the CPU and can run multiple Startech cards to separate the OS, music storage input from the usb audio output to the dac? This would be very interesting.

[lateboomer]

40 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Many processors will let a single core run at a higher frequency then others. This always sounds bad and I disable this in my motherboards.

May I know how do you do this? Could I do It for Supermicro board?

[lateboomer]

Me too, I don't have Sotm gear and also don't have Iso Regen at my usb output.

[lateboomer]

39 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Over here two lps-1s and an ISO Regen create a moat between the PC and DAC. Works and sounds great. SQ is diminished with the removal of either.

Pardon me for asking. Why is It 2 lps-1s? How is the application?

[lateboomer]

I am curious is it possible with the riser card, run one lps powered moderate gpu card externally on this ps10m mobo which taking care of all the upsampling task and then dedicate the streaming task only to a low power cpu? With this arrangement the server and renderer will be in one box with optimum connection without Ethernet and another hardcore server.  The mobo still behaves as light weight renderer as Zenith does with small footprint and also incorporate the startech USB card in this setup. Would this be possible and strike gold?