Blue or red pill?

[psjug]

1 hour ago, beerandmusic said:

 

oh music services, mqa, blah, blah...none of that stuff interests me, but i would tend to believe that they will sound different....my thinking, main reason being your local network should be cleaner than streamed from internet with less ECC...thus less noise....but i don't really know, and is of no interest to me (lol)....bleh streaming over internet...

 

for serious listening, native dsd or bust....can't do that with any streaming service...i can't even believe people pay for streaming services.

 

Really?  Personally I think flac files streamed over the internet sound great. But even if you don't, a streaming subscription is worth it just to sample what you might want to buy.  Doesn't cost very much - a true bargain IMO.

 

You might not want to hear this, but your post above sounds a lot like another person who posts on here.

[psjug]

3 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

yea, in hind-sight, and re-reading, i was rude....my thinking is that if someone will go through great lengths to do a/b sq testing, that it should include highres DSD.  I was just disappointed, when i found out, when i was first quite excited....anyway, my apologies to all.

Oh, I wouldn't worry about it.  It wasn't very offensive at all.  But you might reconsider your thinking on it - you might find that discovering and having access to so much music on streaming services would be something you like.

[psjug]

1 hour ago, Spacehound said:

I shall judge as much as I want. If we  don't judge PC will make all these other things compulsory real soon.

 

And in the UK I can legally refuse to sell a cake to anyone who doesn't meet with my approval.

"The World's Most Exclusive Cake Maker" might well be a very successful business

Well, I don't know the law and I don't know if your cake business would succeed, but I did just read this and the writer is pretty funny

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/10/should-we-all-have-the-right-not-to-bake-a-cake/

[psjug]

10 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

It could be very difficult for example to compare the analogue output of a DAC with 2 checksum identical musical files such as one via a Regen , and another without a Regen, where audible differences are confirmed via non sighted listening, without another A/D conversion which will almost certainly degrade subtle ( or not quite so subtle ) differences.

 

If you use an MQA ADC then it won't degrade; it will improve.  Seriously, though, you won't accept comparisons from an ADC if top notch equipment is used?

[psjug]

6 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 No, I won't accept any further A/D conversions.

 I have been readily able to hear the differences of copying a ripped file to a different location on another internal HDD , or as Cookie Marenco says .(below)

What if it proved what you wanted to show?

[psjug]

Are any difference in the analog captures (the music ones) apparent when comparing small sections of time series plots?

[psjug]

5 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Analog captures will never match exactly even under the best conditions.

I know they won't match exactly.  But maybe obvious and consistent differences can be shown, especially in sections where Mani is most hearing the differences.

[psjug]

38 minutes ago, manisandher said:

For anyone who's interested in doing some analysis of the digital (taken in real-time during the A/B/X) and analogue (taken immediately after A/B/X) captures, in the following link you'll find 4 files:

 

1. digital capture _ A

2. digital capture _ B

3. analogue capture _ A

4. analogue capture _ B

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10SD3SSdXV-P0ZFEte31NSFXeO0UhBYBi

 

Enjoy!

 

Mani.

Are there multiple analog captures for both A and B?  So that we can use a diff program to check whether A-B is significantly greater than A-A or B-B.

[psjug]

36 minutes ago, adamdea said:

Are you referring to the s/pdif captures? I am referring to the analogue outs. You will never get two analogue captures to null perfectly.

My understanding is diffmaker has a method to deal with the alignment problem.  It can't be perfect but apparently this gives alignment that is not limited by the sample interval.  However, I've never used this software so I'm not sure I would be much good for doing this.

 

What is the high frequency stuff seen on the analog captures?  Is this pickup or something expected from the recorder?

 

 

 

 

[psjug]

7 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

So here's what I tried (similar to what was proposed earlier): align the A and B analog captures in Audacity, using sample # display.

Audio DiffMaker is able to get better alignment than doing it the way you did.  See Section 5.2 in their paper:

http://www.libinst.com/AES Audio Differencing Paper.pdf

[psjug]

1 hour ago, esldude said:

For what its worth, without sample rate drift correction Audio Diffmaker shows a null depth of 37.3 db left and 37.5 right.  With sample rate drift correction (when it doesn't blow up) it shows a null depth of 94.5 db left and 92.3 db right.  

 

I complain about Diffmaker quite a lot.  When it works and shows deep null depth it isn't wrong in my experience.  More often it blows up or shows something ridiculous like a null depth of less than 10 db when its obvious by other means the null is deeper than that. 

 

So curious and interesting results.  I am not sure what could be left with nulls into the 90s with a 16 bit DAC with a noise in that same vicinity.  

Did you listen to the difference file?  Could you make out anything like the music track or do you only hear noise?

[psjug]

Here is a view of a complex section of the tracks 3 and 4, low-pass filtered and aligned (I hope the jpg is OK).  They look exactly the same everywhere I've checked them in this way.

[psjug]

5 minutes ago, adamdea said:

Interesting, low-passed at what frequency? If they look exactly the same then invert one and combine the tracks and see what you have got. "Looks like" is not a mathematical operator.

I think it was 30kHz cutoff.  Just wanted to get rid of that high freq stuff that makes it hard to compare.  This was just offered FWIW.  I know this doesn't prove anything.

[psjug]

2 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

This took me 80 seconds (including unzipping) :

 

 

This is still way way NOT zoomed.

Does it look the same to you all ?

 

Difference is high freq stuff added by recorder, as I understand it.  That's why I LP filtered.

[psjug]

8 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

You shouldn't have LPF'd that in the first place. So yes, there is noise. But look here (it's about the same zoom level as the one from yourself :

 

 

This is beyond noise. This is really different. Look at the shape of the lower channel's first "cycle". Or the upper channel's 2nd.

 

That is interesting.  Is this 3 and 4?  Why is it a problem to LP filter if the HF stuff is not coming from the 16/44 DAC, and presumably not part of the signal being played?

 

And if you can show differences this way, are the differences there only between A-B or are they there with A-A and B-B just the same.

[psjug]

25 minutes ago, esldude said:

Yes that is with drift corrections.

Do you see the same spectrum on your diff track as shown above?

[psjug]

2 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Note the absence of the extra frequencies that were there when examining A3-B4 residuals (posted earlier):

 

I am trying to reproduce this and I don't see the high level peaks, at least not nearly to this degree.  However, diffmaker is leaving a small (~1 sec) bad section at about 20 sec, so I am not sure it is working correctly.  When I leave out the bad section, my spectra look like below.  First is 3A-4B, 2nd is 3A-5A.

 

I don't have confidence in what I've done.  But someone should confirm that the files show the differences.

[psjug]

9 minutes ago, esldude said:

 

Comparing other A and B captures and A vs A and B vs B the results are all very similar.

 

This is what I get, too.  Also, I have the "compensate for sample drift" setting disabled, and I still don't get the larger peaks in the diff spectra.

[psjug]

3 hours ago, manisandher said:

 

 

Peter, Alex is talking about the S/PDIF captures, you're talking about the analogue out captures.

 

FWIW, I can't hear a difference between the analogue captures, because they're clearly degraded compared to the S/PDIF captures, and not enough detail is coming through.

 

Mani.

 

Have you tried LP filtering the captures before playing them to see if they then sound closer to the S/PDIF captures, or if filtered sounds different from unfiltered?

 

[psjug]

1 hour ago, manisandher said:

 

C) We can speculate that:

1. the audible differences were caused by different 'jitter signatures' in the DAC during the D-to-A process

I thought you said you hear the same differences changing the software settings when using other DACs too.  Maybe (for now) move on and consider that other equipment is being affected?

[psjug]

37 minutes ago, esldude said:

I ran these once and restarted Diffmaker to repeat.  

 

Instead of doing same thing twice, can you get the same results doing 3a-4b and 4b-3a?

[psjug]

9 minutes ago, esldude said:

I just tried that.  Timing and speed correction is identical.  Null depth is a few db different.  

That's pretty good.  FWIW I am getting the same timing adjustment as you.  But it crashes on me if I turn on the sample drift compensation so I can't duplicate the other numbers.

[psjug]

30 minutes ago, esldude said:

I just tried that.  Timing and speed correction is identical.  Null depth is a few db different.  

 

parameters: 9.241usec, 0.001dB (L),  0.000dB (R). rate adj=0.0323 ppm.Corr Depth: 110.4 dB (L), 102.1 dB (R)

 

parameters: -9.241usec, -0.001dB (L),  0.000dB (R). rate adj=-0.0323 ppm.Corr Depth: 109.4 dB (L), 99.6 dB (R)

 

 

It ran this time with the same 4 accuracy setting.  Go figure.  I used first 19 sec so not exactly the same as yours.

parameters: 9.241usec, 0.001dB (L),  0.000dB (R). rate adj=0.0316 ppm.Corr Depth: 102.1 dB (L), 104.4 dB (R)

[psjug]

What do you mean by glitch?  Something else besides the ultrasonic stuff?

[psjug]

On 4/17/2018 at 12:39 PM, pkane2001 said:

Note the absence of the extra frequencies that were there when examining A3-B4 residuals (posted earlier):

 

@pkane2001  I think I might know why you are getting these peaks in your spectrum from the diffmaker difference file.  When you do the FFT you need to make sure you don't include the very beginning, because of the alignment adjustment.  I noticed that when I forgot to cut this part out that I got these same spikes.