The Best for the Least

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30 minutes ago, esldude said:

Hey speakers are the toughest part.  JBL LSR 305 LSR now in mk2 version are a touchstone of value and performance.  $300/pair and powered.  Add any number of good DAC pres for small money.  Connect whatever computer or tablet you have.  You are done. Smsl or Topping have some fine measuring low cost DAC preamps. Some have xlr outs for feeding the JBLs.  Not even $1000 required for the whole shebang.

 

Not the only choices of course, but very good for the money.

 

There’s no chance that these little plastic class D toy speakers  are any good.

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An all-in-one class A/B is probably the best bang for the buck available. The ones from Hegel and Carry are probably decent.

 

Besides that, you guys will have to look towards AliExpress, China-HiFi, etc.

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1 minute ago, Fluffytime said:

 

You have no idea.

 

This juxtaposition of experience and knowledge vs belief is striking. What do you base your belief of small class D monitors with plastic baffles performance on besides they are mentioned a lot on the Internet?

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It weighs 10 lbs and so is unable to well control resonance. The little cheap 5" driver being run by a tiny class D module will never be able to move a satisfying amount of air. They are designed for near-field monitoring (ie, not for serious home listening). Class D sucks, that’s well-established — and even if you believe in ultra high-end class D modules used in serious audiophile amps — the baby mass market junk in these things are not suitable for serious audiophiles.

 

Why does class D suck? Pulse-width modulation operates between 400-500 kHz and in order to clean up the output and produce a usable analog waveform out the other end very aggressive filtering is needed. Bandwidth is severely limited and the time domain is damaged. Our ears HATE class D switching artifacts.

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I am told over and over and over and over and OVER again how price doesn’t equal quality. Fine, that’s a truism. Now let’s see if the reality is going along with that. These JBL near-field monitors don’t compete with Riahdos, Magicos, TADs, etc, and literally everyone knows it. So where are the $300 Wilsons? Price doesn’t equal quality after all.

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Looking at my system:

Custom linear power PC: $1.5k

Holo Cyan DSD: $1k

Schiit Freya + tubes: $1k

Linnenberg Allegros: $5.5k

Fritz Carbon VII SEs: $2.5k

Cables: $2k

 

Add power stuff and software and we’re around $14k. If I add the turntable gear I’m up to $16k. Room treatments are definitely over $1k....

 

So what could I do to bring this down to the bare minimum I could live with?

 

Source: Gigabyte/MSI motherboard with clean USB custom PC - $0.5k

DAC: Chinese dual transformer 9038 / 4497 DIY - $0.3k

Amp / Pre: NAD 316 - $0.3k (used)

Speakers: Fritz Carbon VII SEs - $2.5k (I haven’t anything less that I could live with).

Cables: Amplifer Surgery silver plated interconnects and Audio Sensability speaker cables - $0.5k

 

So a little over $4k. The main problem is finding speakers I won’t hate for less than $2.5k.

 

 

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1 hour ago, bigbob said:

 

How about a complete system for $500?

Used, vintage electronics can be refurbished for less than $100. A Schiit Modi Multibit is $249. Dayton Audio offers a line of Air Motion Transformer speakers from $49-upI could justify building a CAOTC system using a Modi Multibitbasis of my music server (USB Transport) and to give a Mimby a trial run. It comes in at $249--so you can see that "on the Cheap" is being challenged. per pair. Great interconnects, speaker wire, and some isolation tweaks, and you have the Computer Audiophile on the Cheap system (which uses the Raspberry Pi 3 as the USB transport and dedicated music server. $70 with necessary accessories). BAM, the best for the least.

And nobody cares what @GUTB thinks about anything that costs under $10,000. Some folks just stroke their egos by driving down the street of a Middle-class neighborhood, in a car that costs as much as a house. 'nuf said.

 

Why are you guys trying to push this meme that I only approve of high end gear?

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7 minutes ago, Allan F said:

Please:

 

 

I'll only admit that I havent listened to high-end class D amps...besides a few times at shows but those have been in bad listening environments so I can't in fairness pass judgment on them based solely on listening impressions. 

 

My next major upgrade is coming up. I don't plan to spend any more than 10k but if something like the Kii 3 is compelling enough I may be able to expand the budget. 

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23 minutes ago, patagent said:

 

Given your affinity for exotic material drivers, you would have been much better served to buy something like:

 

Focal Kanta/Revel F208 Be/Magico A3    $10k

Parasound Halo Integrated    $2.5k

Cables/Room                           $1.5k

 

You spent 14k on a system anchored by "mid-fi" speakers.  I'm sure they sound good but they won't be enough for someone who likes Raidho's, Magico's, TAD's.  No wonder you think entry to "hi-fi" requires exorbitant amount of money.

 

I totally agree. My next big upgrade is going to be speakers. TADs are out of my reach....MAYBE thier latest entry level standmounts...but honestly I really want the Evolution Ones. Maybe the new entry level Magicos. I was really impressed with GamuT standmounts too. ProAc is on my radar. These made-in-China Quads might be a value proposition. I keep hearing about how amazing the Kii Threes are, who knows...there’s options.

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1 minute ago, mansr said:

That means you are not an audiophile.

 

I had a momentary impulse to click your name to check your system. Just for a moment.

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2 minutes ago, Spacehound said:

"we are still way off being able to derive numbers that correlate with the subjective SQ."

 

Of course we can. You just destroyed your own argument by mentioning 'subjective SQ'.

 

What someone thinks is good SQ is  entirely personal, as in  "Spacehound likes it but fas42 doesn't"..

 

No more than that.

 

But it you measure it, and find that it  (be "it" a DAC, amp, speaker, whatever) has low noise, a flat frequency response, low phase shift throughout its frequency response, and a high input impedance and a low output impedance so it will work well with whatever is in front of it and behind it:

 

It can't HELP but reproduce the source accurately.

 

Which, lacking the artistes in your room, so having to use a recording as your source,   is the very definition of 'good sound quality'  (hifi = high fidelity = accuracy = qood sound quality). Got nothing to do with whether you like it or not. If you don't then buy a different recording.

 

 

 

Your opinions on this appear to be at odds with your equipment choices. If good measurements and impedance matching are all that matters, why did you get a Rossini? Isn’t that a huge waste of money?

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6 hours ago, bigbob said:

 

 

I have found this exchange very informative. As the Computer Audiophile on the cheap, and having zero experience testing with anything but my ears, I am open to you folks helping me to understand what this means. There was a discussion about a ground pin attached to nothing.

 

I live in a post-WWII era apartment which didn't have any earth ground in the electrical system.

 

I found a remarkable, and a quite noticeable improvement, when I took a run of speaker wire and wrapped one end around the metal water pipe under the sink, and the other end around the tab on a 3-prong adapter, in which I plugged my Chang Lightspeed Encounter--and by extension every other component plugged into it.

I also attached a run to the GRD on the back of the Denon. I was told this was a "star-ground". Okay, all I know is that is sounded better.

 

Now, on the 'Best for the Least', I have tested iFi iDSD nano LE, and own a Schiit Modi 2. I have an AQ Dragonfly (v1.2) also. I am awaiting a test unit of the Multibit version of Schiit. I read one mention of Cambridge DAC and a Behringer unit that sells for $79.

 

Please tell me more about these, as I am interested in the best value for the best price, and have deduced that the DAC is the centerpiece of a Computer Audiophile system. Thanks to you all for your input, exchanges, and opinions.

 

First of all, ditch the crappy sticks, dongles and baby boxes. They can perform well from a measurement perspective but they can’t generate a high quality analog signals, and your playback from them will always be gimped.

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9 minutes ago, Shadders said:

 

Knowledge and experience defeated by a reaction image. Guess we know who won’t be going to AXPONA.

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These little toy DACs suck because they don’t have the space to house quality analog sections. You need high performance amplifiers (FETs, triodes, op-amps, etc) and the power supplies to run them at a high performance level. 

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Room accoustics isn’t something that replaces gear. A room is corrected, or it isn’t, or it’s partially corrected. A perfect room does not result in perfect performance, it only eliminates the room as a bottleneck. Crappy speakers, an inferior amp and bad DAC don’t improve because your room is good. 

 

The room is a prequisite for good sound, not an upgradeable piece of gear.

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Vintage speakers are pretty bad by today’s standards. How do you bring them up to modern performance? Can you?

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3 minutes ago, bigbob said:

 

I doubt if anyone could make you happy with anything....

Therefore I am assuming you just want another opportunity to roll out your usual big sack of crap.

Ancient Chinese Proverb: "It takes to two to tango, and it is only fishing if a fish grabs at the bait."

Next....

 

Am I wrong? Has there been no advancement in speakers in the last 40-50 years?

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23 minutes ago, BobSherman said:

Really? 

 

Yahama NS1000, Celestion SL600s, SL700s, Just three that IMO can preform with current speakers.  There are many more.

 

Can speakers made without modern driver materials and without computer modeling and manufacturing tools really compete with today’s speakers?

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1 minute ago, STC said:

 

Can you confidently tell a modern speaker from a current one just by listening?

 

I can’t say that I’ve actually listened to vintage speakers in a very long time. The general concensus (amongst audiophiles) is that they suck...right? Where does one go to listen to old speakers?

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So has there NOT been large advancements in speakers over the last 50 years? Is this the contention? Everybody should know that I’m not out to defeat or ridicule anyone. I’m not out to trap  anyone. I’m neuro-typical, 100%. Is the contention that I should abandon plans to upgrade speakers in the $7-10k range and instead look into a set of vintage speakers that will equal anything I can buy today?

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4 minutes ago, Spacehound said:

Regarding Chord I can only speak for the Mojo, which is excellent (I mostly use it in my car attached to an iPod running the  Onkyo HF Player app, which reduces the iPod to just a 'drive', does PCM up to 192 and converts DSD  to PCM (which is pointless with the Mojo as that does DSD fine  but it does no harm).

 

In a home system the Mojo is fine too. But it is not 'optimally convenient'  as it doesn't have an input switch. It 'prioritises' instead, so if you use coax you have to unplug the USB cable and if you use optical you have to unplug both the USB and the coax cables. As I only use USB it's fine for me.

Also in 'line' mode its internal battery only lasts about five hours but although Chord say it's fine it gets  hotter than I like if you use it and charge it at the same time.

 

But the Mojo sounds  vastly better than any other DAC I've heard except the Rossini, which I find indistinguishable from the Mojo.

Maybe I need a 'high end' cable 

 

Fake news.

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2 minutes ago, bigbob said:

 

That seems to be the best response to anything, which is proven to be a fact.

At least in the political world...but we know Audiophilia knows no party label.

 

Another alternative fact are plastic driver lightweight speakers costing $50 sounding good.

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7 hours ago, bigbob said:

 

I have quit worrying about DSD.

I am content with PCM 24/192.

 

I am testing the Schiit Modi Multibit that Jason sent me...and although I have never heard a DSD, I have heard SACD, and I really would have a hard time spending $25/album to upgrade.

 

Subscription downloads are not an economical option either.

 

So, unless DSD really takes over recorded music, I am pleased with Schiit based on what I am hearing. This "Mimby" now has me thinking about getting the S/PDIF card for the RasPi and using the Multibit external DAC...a better use for $249 than 10 DSD albums, in my opinion.

 

It is getting harder to be 'on the Cheap.'

When you combine a Mimby with RasPi and Digi output card, you are starting to get close to the lower end of the Music Servers, cost wise.

 

So you’ve never heard high rate native DSD recordings through a real native -DSD DAC. To be honest, enjoying that grade of sound is pretty expensive so it’s probably a luxury that’s out of reach of audiophiles with very limited means.

 

Although DSD is better than PCM, it’s not all one-sided in the quality equation: PCM seems to have a euphonic sheen (ie, drive, energy, etc) that many find positive.

 

The problem with trying to achieve good sound with limited means you have to hunt for super high value equipment. The mass consumer gear out there — USB sticks, chip amps, the lowest end shovelware sound like garbage. In the era of ultra high-performance ICs you can get clarity and tone at a good level, but where fall short is dynamics, inner detail, and general euphonics.

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53 minutes ago, bigbob said:

 

You know, I have two 'real Audiophiles' one is a successful Medical Professional, who loves vinyl. His system includes a top-of-the-line turntable, a pair of BAT monoblocks and a pair of Von Schweikert floor-standing loudspeakers.

 

I can honestly say that it is the finest sounding analog system I have had the opportunity to hear. His listening room, at the time, was lined from floor to ceiling with his library of well-pressed records, and he was content.

 

My other Audiophile friend has over $300K invested in his system and is based on CDs, SACDs, and Hi-Res Audio files. It too is awesome.

 

I have second hand this and that that I have cobbled together with my limited resources a very good sounding 'entry-level' system, and I am content.

 

My lack of resources, coupled with my desire to have a system which sounds "almost as good" as my friends. And with some ingenuity, I have succeeded in pleasing my ears, and I don't want this to threaten anyone. If I had more money, I would spend more--but alas, that is not a probable outcome.

 

Years ago, while I was living my previous life, I had a high school basketball coach share some sage wisdom that has served me well for the past 40 years.

 

He said, "If you ain't happy, get happy because life is too short to be unhappy." That is the underlying motive for launching "Computer Audiophile on the Cheap" as a magazine, and my marketplace. There is no system like mine, and I don't feel compelled to justify, are defend it to anyone. I am not an electrical engineer, computer guru, or disinterested listener. I just like a half-dozen albums and many Grateful Dead concerts, and I am content.

 

‘You didn’t put together a system that sounds "almost" as good. Let’s just be real for two seconds.

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Just now, bigbob said:

 

I forgot, when did you come over?

 

You’re saying that your old consumer grade receiver based system sounds almost as good as a $300k system and another high end analog setup. Assuming even basic competency in component matching and room configuration, that assertion just can’t be true.