Kii Three - my impressions and pro reviews

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I agree, Kal. I replaced a set of Martin Logans with the Kii. They image beautifully, whereas the 'stats gave a more difuse soundstage. Much greater high frequency extension and bass down below 20 Hz. And similar to Kal, I found that Dirac live did not make a significant difference; quite different from my experience with the MLs.

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8 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

I am not so sure of that.  First, it presumes that the user's selection and application of DRC is excellent.  Second, currently all DRC applications are most effective in only a restricted position in the room while the Kii's approach directly minimizes the reflections/interactions that DRC attempts to correct.  

I think Kal is spot on here. My previous speakers were corrected with a MiniDSP DDRC22 and had an excellent response at the listening position. However the room still imposed its character at other than the listening position. The Kii Three on the other hand dramatically reduces room interactions, and similarly to Kal's observation in his review, I note miniscule differences to the sound with the Dirac Live engaged or absent. Lately I've dispensed with room correction.

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On 11/27/2017 at 8:27 PM, input username here said:

 

Also, since the Bluetooth is supposed to be activated in a software update "soon," I wonder (1) if anyone has an update on the update and (2) do people thing that the update will basically turn-on a feature or two (Bluetooth, etc.) or is it more likely that they will do a through software re-working of the complete system (like, say, PS Audio with the Directstream DAC or the Devialet pro series); obviously, I hope it's more the latter, though I have no inside info. at this point.  (And I understand that the on-board DACs are apparently chips, not FPGAs, but pretty much everything else in the speaker runs on software, so it should be a highly tweak-able platform.)

 

With regards to Bluetooth, the current Kii Control (Version 0.2) advertises a Bluetooth receiver: BlueCreation-01FAAE. I discovered this while pairing an Apple Pencil to an iPad Pro.

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1 hour ago, input username here said:

 

Wow, you're right.   I just paired my PC to the CONTROL via the BlueCreation receiver. ... I have NO idea how to actually get sound out of it now! 

 

How might I select the BT as an input???  I am pretty sure that my PC is using the BT as the audio output device (it says "Headphones (Bluetooth)" on the output device), but how do you select the PC as an input on the CONTROL, I wonder.   I tried all of the "hard" input buttons (AES, coax, etc.) and, unsurprisingly, that resulted in no sound out of any of 'em. 

 

Interesting, all the same.

 

I suspect the firmware update will add a menu item for BT or allow BT input to override the normal input setting as many Airplay devices do. I am not so enamored with audio over BT but an iOS or android app providing expanded control would be great.

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On December 11, 2017 at 4:41 PM, baconbrain said:

Thanks for the feedback. I basically have two options for placement. 

1) To place the left speaker in a tight corner

2) To place the left speaker on a wall mounted side board somewhat away from the corner

Since I am really not happy with either, I wonder which would be the worse of the two evils?

 

I would try the corner option, placing the speakers symmetrically in your room. Using the boundary control independently for each speaker, as well as the contour control for each, you should be able to optimize the response. These are really quite adaptable speakers, especially if you have the Kii Control.

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Do enjoy your Kiis! I also noted that DRC had minimal effect with the Kii Threes in my room after I dialed in the boundary settings. However the stored presets for Dirac allows me to quickly change equalization profiles, which is quite useful.

 

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12 hours ago, firedog said:

Asked Kii if there is any news on the bluetooth update to the controller. This is the answer I got:

 

 

The software update tool is great news. I've been hoping that they would provide this.

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7 hours ago, firedog said:

When I bought the Kiis, I called Kii Audio and asked them about upsampling the feed into the Kiis and if there was an optimal samplerate to feed them. Basically the answer was no, they said Kii uses its own proprietary signal resampling which upsamples to a non-conventional rate, and does this differently for each type of incoming rate. They recommended that I  just feed the Kii the native rate of whatever I play back, even DSD.

 

I was skeptical, as I'd previously used both HQP and Roon DSP/conversion to positive effect. But so far, every time I try any outside DSP,  I find that reverting to just sending the Kii native rate sounds best - more clear, easier to hear detail, and even more apparent volume - in short, more alive. Note I am not talking about some additional room correction from outside the Kii if you find that necessary in your listening environment. 

 

I am wondering if that is just me? Anyone doing pre-processing to the Kii and finding they prefer it? If yes,  how are you altering the signal? 

 

I also have not observed any enhancement by upsampling. Similarly, the requirement for DRC by Dirac is minimized with the Kii's.

 

@baconbrain I've used the web interface for e-mailing Kii. Thomas has always been very responsive. You might check your Spam folder, as his first reply to me was directed to Spam.

 

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@baconbrain Given the dimensions of your room and the positioning of the Kiis, I would suggest that perhaps you need to increase the angle of tilt to ~15 degrees and aim the speakers so that the tweeters are directed towards a spot about 0.6 m behind your head. This should place you within the cone of optimum tweeter output and give you that "zing." My room is of similar dimensions and I have reasonably flat reaponse from 15 Hz to 20 kHz. Also, don't be hesitant to tweak contours if needed.

 

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48 minutes ago, baconbrain said:

@Input Username Here: Thanks for the great feedback!

 

My further testing has stagnated a bit as I am working on a solution for increasing the degree of downward tilt of the Kii’s and am also seriously considering picking up a Kii Control to make my life a bit easier when adjusting the settings of the speakers going forward. Feel that I might be giving the Trinnov a bit of an unfair advantage if I have not fully tested the Kii’s own abilities first. 

 

I do have a quick question to the group in regards to the Kii Control. Am I understanding it correctly that the only connection between the control and the Kii’s is an additional Cat 5 one? Also, has anyone heard any additional rumors that Kii may release a bigger and better version of the control in the near future?

 

Yes, the Control is connected solely to the Kii by a Cat 5 cable. Reportedly a more featured unit with wireless connection is in development, but as far as I know there has been no update on this.

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3 hours ago, simonp said:

What's wrong with the little apple remote for volume and source? 

 

Nothing, actually. But if you want to change boundary or contour settings, or select a preset, a bluetooth app would be handy. Kii Audio has been advertising for software engineers, so one would hope that the rumors will become reality.

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1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

do you use the wired remote for different source material?  or is it a set it up once and forget it type thing?

 

As @firedog states it is more than a remote, although with a 5 m Cat 6 you can use it as wired remote. I do have programmed sources attached to the remote and use the XLR digital input solely for Dirac room correction. For quick access I use the Apple remote. I think the Control is used also for Firmware updates. I feel the Control is essential to get the most out of the Kii, specially since it provides access to fine control of the contour and boundary parameters.

 

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3 hours ago, Evo-No-Revo said:

This is how Grace Design described the issue on the RMA form they sent me.

 

"Master speaker is power cycling with static burst and clicking". 

 

Yes, it sounds exactly like that.

 

Sorry to hear this. I believe Bose on Gearslutz had an identical issue a few months back. He's in the UK so they went back to theNetherlands for repair.

 

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On 4/30/2018 at 4:17 AM, Mazza said:

I wonder if they will announce any new products? Eg. Subs have been talked about in the past

 

Just in from Kii Audio in this morning's mail:

 

"Should you plan to come to High End / HiFi Deluxe in Munich in May, we would like to welcome you to our room at the Marriott Hotel (Studio 3) where you could be amongst the first to see a new product that could be of much interest for you."

 

 

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8 hours ago, firedog said:

Don't know. Maybe there are. No official description yet. 

 

Chris R. in a facebook posting said that there were no rear drivers, only the 8 per channel that you can see.

 

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53 minutes ago, PleasantSounds said:

I wouldn't worry too much about blacking out the prowe grid when you turn the BXT on. 

 

If the Kii3 itself is any indication, then all those kilowatts of power refer to the total power rating of the on-board amps, but the power supply draw is much lower: Kii3 has 6x250W amps but the power supply is rated 200W. You may get a burst exceeding that several times for a few milliseconds granted by onboard capacitors - that's probably how they measured 1.4kW.

 

 

When I ordered my Kii Threes I inquired about power requirements and Tom replied that no special conditions needed to be taken, that direct connection to the mains was sufficient. I recall that he stated that 10 amps was the maximum current draw.

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3 hours ago, simonp said:

Tidal or qobuz never give me a magical sound.  

 

Spot on! There is no comparison between the local fIle and a Tidal streamed file. Local always sounds superior. I suspect that the combination of room acoustics and Tidal led to problems in Munich. I would never make a quality judgement based on an experience at an audio show.

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1 minute ago, Emlin said:

There is a total equivalence between local files and those streamed. If they are the same file. That can be difficult to verify, with so many different masterings etc around. But the same digits will always sound the same.

 

The problem is that I don’t know that the files are the same. As you say, different masterings or possible “watermarks” on the Tidal files...all I know is the Tidal files sound more astringent with the Kii.

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3 minutes ago, Emlin said:

If the sound is always more "astringent" to you, I suspect expectation (or similar) bias, as there is no other explanation known to science . Unless Tidal are playing with things.  

 

Your last sentence may be valid. I have not noticed this with the Primephonic stream.

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4 minutes ago, Emlin said:

Are you playing Tidal MQA masters? If so, that would explain it as MQA (despite its claims to the contrary) is lossy .

 

Not to my knowledge. MQA is a sham IMHO and I have no means to process MQA files.

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48 minutes ago, dustblue said:

Kii engineers replied to me, they perform the test exactly as the way I did and got the very same results, which is for Gojira's <drum solo> limiter kicks in at 81.5 volume on controller, while the pirates theme overload at 83.

 

They also responded with lots of useful information which could not be found publicly, I am waiting for their permission to publicly disclose it, if granted I would start another thread to say it.

 

Thanks for those who helped, though none of you could achieve a very simple correct result. I don't know where you did wrong and I am not sure why you tried so hard to protect Kii (however you actually failed to do it) and ignore some very simple truth(or being unable to find out).

 

 

My impression is that these tracks must be highly atypical. I've had the Kii system for over a year now and I have yet to observe limiting. I am running the Kii with direct input from Audirvana Plus (Mac Pro USB) into the Kii controller. My listening space is 7 x 4.3 x 3 m. and the Kii boundary is set to reproduce the optimum distribution suggested by Toole. And yes I have engaged the limiter indicator and even at volumes that are dangerous to hearing the Kid have performed without complaint. I am certain I could drive them into limiting by boosting the low end, but such a response curve would be unmusical to me. I think the design rationale for the Kii was to provide a neutral monitoring platform for the typical studio, not reproduction in large venues.

 

@dustblue I am interested in hearing the info you learned from Kii.

 

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@dustblue I for one do not have an agenda to protect Kii’s reputation. Many of us here have technical backgrounds and some of us have worked in the broadcast industry (me in my mispent youth, for example). I do think we have a good grasp of the physics involved here. For the most part the participants in this forum are good people and are happy to help out. I hope you find a forum that will be more to your preference.

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1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I'm interested to know and I'd hate to see you in the same situation again.

 

Same here!

 

I live in an urban area, but power can be erratic with frequent brief disruptions. I inquired with Kii Audio about precautions with respect to mains power, but Thomas replied that none were needed. However after an incident in which the power cycled off, on, off and on within 5 seconds and the Kii crashed during reboot, I decided that mains protection was essential. I now have each Kii connected to a Vertiv pure-sine wave UPS (1500 VA) and haven't had issues since. Generally I avoid connecting sensitive electronics/computers to power strips.

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3 hours ago, firedog said:

23 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Kii got back in touch. I originally understood them to say that one speaker was burned on the inside and they suspected a lightning strike or power surge. They now clarified that the speaker smelled burnt inside. They now think one of the amps burned out and passed DC to a woofer. That caused the burnt smell. They no longer think it was something external to the speaker, just an amp failure. 
That made me feel better, as it's unlikely I will encounter the same failure again in a different set of speakers.

Power protection: I've got a fair bit of power protection and isolation on my system. As far as pure sine wave UPS, do you find any downsides? Others think those type devices aren't suitable for high end audio systems.

 

 

Good to hear that there was only a minor failure mode even though inconvenient. After @tomjtx reporting a similar incident, I wonder how common this problem is?

 

As far as negative audio consequences of pure sine-wave power, I have not discerned any. I am getting a constant filtered 123 V which is corrected for under- or over voltage conditions. All positive as far as I'm concerned.

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11 hours ago, bobfa said:

I am looking very closely at a pair of Kii Threes.  I was interested to see how folks are hooking their turntables up?  

 

Also any comments from long term owners?

 

Phono preamp to Benchmark ADC to Minidsp DDRC22 (Dirac Live) and AES into Kii Three.