Optane SSD as Boot drive - SQ Nirvana?

[lmitche]

20 minutes ago, baconbrain said:

I have noticed that the latest version of my mainboard bios now provides for the selection of either AHCI or Intel RST Premium SATA Drivers. Does anyone have any insight as to which should be utilized with the Optane?

The answer depends on how you are using the Optane stick.  If as an SSD as suggested here, the AHCI drivers work perfectly.  If you have a z270 motherboard you could use the Intel RST driver and use the Optane as a cache device for a hard disk.

 

I haven't tried the second option, so can't discuss sound quality.

[lmitche]

3 hours ago, scan80269 said:

AHCI is for SATA drives.  Optane memory sticks talk PCIe x2 interface and support NVMe protocol only.  To use Optane memory as SSD for booting Win10, the inbox Win10 NVMe driver (stornvme.sys) should automatically install to provide the proper boot support during OS installation.  In essence, you can just pretend the Optane memory stick is a 32GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD, and Win10 will support it just like any other M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD in the market.

 

Scab,

 

Thanks for your correction, of course you are absolutely right!

[lmitche]

5 hours ago, Forehaven said:

Hi Larry,

At Ted's suggestion, I tried moving my pc upstairs to listening room to listen to USB direct. So PC to IsoReg to SU 1 (both powered by LPS 1's) to Spring via I2S. 

Holy Smokes!  It rocks.  Octane on order.  Strong work Larry and Ted!

 

 

3 hours ago, scan80269 said:

I have the same setup, at least temporarily, and it does sound real good!

 

PC -> WireWorld Starlight Platinum USB cable -> ISO REGEN (LPS-1 powered) -> PCUSB -> SU-1 (modded, LPS-1 powered) -> Apollo-AV Lightning V2 HDMI cable -> Holo Audio Spring Level 3 DAC

 

The PC I'm using is an Intel NUC6i7KYK with a fanless chassis.  It is up to the job of upsampling PCM to DSD512 using HQPlayer.  I don't have Optane memory installed, though, but instead a Samsung 850 EVO M.2 SATA 1TB SSD carrying a fraction of my library locally.

 

Glad see see that the three of you are enjoying the direct connection approach. The Optane and Adnaco deliver terrific gains, as does the Lush cable between the ISO Regen and DAC. While it's been a long road I am hearing beautiful music here.  Trust me you will know it when you hear it.

[lmitche]

There is great article on the bus topology of modern motherboards in the August issue of Maximum PC.  Covers everything, PCIE, NVME, USB . . .

 

. . . It can cure insomnia too . . .

[lmitche]

OK, so having read the Maximum PC article above, I realized that my Optane card and motherboard USB port were sharing the same 4 Gb DMI lanes from the PCH(z170) to the CPU. Using this <$20 card:

 

https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboard-Accessory/HYPER_M2_X4_MINI_CARD/

 

one can move the Optane from the m.2 motherboard slot to one of the direct to CPU PCIE slots on the motherboard.  For me, this removed any contention for PCIE lanes in my 3 device PC, Adnaco fiber controller, motherboard USB, and PCIE m.2 card with Optane.

 

Careful reading of your motherboard manual will help you get this right.

 

This brought another really nice jump in sound quality here with noticeably increased presence.

 

 

 

 

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, ted_b said:

Larry runs direct to dac, no NAA.

Thanks Ted, yep that's right hqplayer upsampling to dsd512 for everything but no NAA.

[lmitche]

Unfortunately today I received two reports of fried Optane modules today, one in the US, the other in the Netherlands. Both were used in motherboard m.2 slots.  My vertically mounted Optane on the Asus card seems just fine, but I'm going to back it up just in case.

[lmitche]

2 hours ago, lateboomer said:

Guys, thank you for the clarification. As I couldn't find the setup info from your profiles that is why I asked. Not that I want to question your assessment. I follow this thread with great interest as in near future I would like to setup i7 music server running Daphile capable of upsampling to dsd256. My initial choice is Asus H110I-PLUS as it is mini-itx in size and use atx power connection, but doesn't have m.2 port.

So for better future proof , do you suggest Asus z170m-plus? I think I could live with micro-atx form factor. Should I opt for i7-7700 or i7-6770 is performing better like cheaper or maybe generating lesser heat?

 

Anyway, for power I just bought masterCooler 400W desktop PSU for the board which has 85% efficiency. I ignored segetop titanium 500W psu with 95% efficiency and think it is just marketing gimmick until I follow this thread. What do you think?

 

Thank you.

Here is the ATX PSU I'd used if I was starting a new build today:

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=481

 

I would also use a z270 motherboard with two m.2 slots one of which can be setup as a direct pcie to cpu slot. I think the Asus ROG board does this, but I'd check to be sure.

[lmitche]

11 hours ago, rickca said:

Wow, I haven't seen any reports in the press about Optane failures.  Any idea what is causing the problem?

We don't know what caused the problems.

 

The Optane drives do run hot. That is likely the reason for failure in the Netherlands. The packaging also suggests that the Optane is very sensitive to static electricity.  The second failure happened after a move of the board from a motherboard slot to an Asus card. Perhaps there was a problem in the move.

 

This is too bad, as everyone agrees the SQ benefits are real.

[lmitche]

47 minutes ago, lateboomer said:

As concluded I think moving the os to m.2 nvme with separate pcie lane resulted in sonic bump. But I wonder how about the USB external drive music source and then audio output via another USB or HDMI, aren't they shared the same pcie lane? That is mean extra switching for pcie controller. How do  we improve it?

One could separate the two USB chains by adding a pcie USB card and installing it in a slot with a direct cpu connection. This could be a standard commodity USB card or an audiophile card like the Jcat femto.

 

Over here I have the Adnaco fiber card in one of the two direct to cpu pcie slots. The other contains the Asus m.2 and Optane card. This way the only use of the pch(z170) is from the motherboard based USB connection to the DAC.

[lmitche]

3 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

I don't believe Optane is compatible with the 100 series chipsets.  I could be wrong, but you can verify here:

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/memory-and-storage/intel-optane-memory/000024020.html

 

Of course if you don't want to use Optane this isn't an issue.

Optane is not compatible with z170 motherboards when used as a disk cache, but as an SSD it works just fine with a z170.

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, rickca said:

Note that most PCIe USB cards are x1, but x1 slots on motherboards run off the chipset.  So I believe you need to install the PCIe USB card in one of the long PCIe slots that are usually used by graphics cards.  Is this your understanding also, @lmitche?

There are three pcie highways coming from a i7-6700k cpu, two usually go directly to the two longest pcie slots closest to the CPU and the third to the pch (z170). So three devices may have exclusive use of these highways when configured optimally. The fourth and any additional devices will connect to the chipset. However each board is different so you must read the manual to find these details.

[lmitche]

5 hours ago, hols said:

Hi Larry,

 

Can I ask for some advice? I have followed this thread and cloned the Win10 OS the Optane 32Gb in the motherboard M2 slot with Paragon Migrate and it is working properly with some improvement in SQ mainly more open sound. This is my third system with Win 10 and AO optimised and connected to T+A Dac 8 DSD and using HQplayer upsample to DSD512 . I am using the same motherboard and CPU as Ted's( Gigabyte z170X-UD5 and Intel 6700K CPU). I have just received my Asus Hyper M2.X4 mini PCIe card and I just read that 2 Optanes has fried and one of which is Ted's. I happen to have the same motherboard as Ted's so do you think I should go ahead with the change to Asus PCIe card or should I put it to a hold? Any reason why should the Optane got fried in this position?

 

Another related question is I have tried to use a Orico PCIe SATA card and plug the SATA devices DVD ROM and HDD to this Orico PCIe to SATA card but the sound stuttered like mad once it goes to high resolution. So what PCIe card do you use when you completely eliminated the onboard SATA? Or you plug all the HDDs and Lan cards to your Adnaco? Thanks.

Hmmm, I don't know what to say.  I was able to move the Optane from my m.2 slot to the Asus card without incident. You should make sure you are not carrying a static charge before the move, but otherwise I wouldn't think it would be a problem. The other card fried because it was very close to a heatpipe.

 

Ted is the expert on frying Optanes with Asus m.2 cards here, LOL.  I think he has ordered another Optane to try again, but I don't want to talk for him.

 

Ted is right, I use an Adnaco fiber USB 3.0 adapter for both Ethernet and hard disk access. The USB 3 adapter is powered by a Lps-1.

[lmitche]

3 hours ago, hols said:

Hi Larry,

 

I am a little more fortunate than Ted in that I did not fry my Optane but like him I could not make it work with the Asus Hyper M.2 x4 mini card. The Optane could not be detected when put in the Asus PCIe card. But fortunately when put back into the M.2 slot it works again. So could it be because of the motherboard. We both use the Gigabyte z170x-ud5. Or is it because the BIOS? 

Hi hols,

 

On your motherboard only two slots have pcie lanes to the cpu, the two long slots closest to the cpu labeled x16 and x8. You also need to ensure the jumper on the board is set to pcie, not SSD mode. Otherwise I don't know what could be wrong. There are other vendors with m.2 boards so you could try one of those, or perhaps there is a bios setting that matters. My apologies for not being more helpful.

 

Larry

[lmitche]

3 minutes ago, hols said:

Any suggestion on PCIe SATA card or PCIe ethernet card.

Sorry, but I have no insight here.

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, fitman said:

Hi there,

I have installed my WIN10 onto the Intel optane which is inserted in M.2 slot, and it do have lot of improvements on it. Thanks to all for the share!!!

 

Meanwhile, I am going to order the Adnaco USB card, and will connect the music USB disk. However, I would like to ask 2 questions on it:

 

1. Is it better to connect  the DAC to the Adnaco USB (I am using Holo Spring DAC thru USB)?

2. I am using HQPlayer to upsampling my WAV to DSD512, will it be any improvement to put the music WAV onto a RAM drive during the playback? Or direct playback from USB disk thur Adnaco USB card.

 

Thanks,

Louie

Hi Louie,

 

The Adnaco brings galvanic isolation on a USB 3 connection which is ideal for disk drive access with a HDD in a uasp enabled enclosure.  I get read and write speeds in the 210 mbps range with my wd black drive. I also have an usb 3 nic plugged into the Adnaco USB.

 

My DAC is connected via an ISO Regen on a USB 2 motherboard connection.  The ISO Regen delivers galvanic isolation on this second usb chain.

 

Prior to receiving the ISO Regen I used the Adnaco to provide galvanic isolation for the DAC. The ISO Regen sounds better, and repurposing the Adnaco for HDD and network access added another bump up in SQ as well. 

 

FYI, I power the Adnaco USB hub with an lps-1 which makes a huge difference in SQ.

[lmitche]

42 minutes ago, Forehaven said:

Larry, how much difference did it make moving your music from your internal hd vs. to an ext. hd via the StarTech enclosure via the Adnaco?  Was the LPS mandatory to hear the gains?  Overall, nearly $900 for all three..If you addressed this in another post just mention the thread and I'll seek it out.  

 

Forehaven, I went to Adnaco from a SATA based internal drive running from a SATA adapter in the m.2 slot.  The shorter I made the SATA cables, the better the sound. This pissed me off as the optimal configuration seemed unachievable. Once the ISO Regen arrived it became clear that I had the gear to run two GI chains, so I did so, continuing to boot Windows from the HDD. The Adnaco chain sounded better than the SATA interface ever did. The SATA controller is now disabled in the BIOS.

 

The Optane upgrade was the next move once I realized you don't need a z270 motherboard to enjoy the benefits of Optane.

 

Everyone I know that uses the Adnaco is pleased with the SQ.

 

I'm sorry but I can't address SQ enhancements in value terms.  Even a $1000 investment for this level of SQ improvement is a steal is audiophile terms.

 

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, Forehaven said:

LOL!!  It's SO hard not to keep dicking around when you think there is still room for improvement....it's a real psychological issue for us! hehe

 

So something like this?  https://www.amazon.com/dp/B013G4C8RE/ref=sxr_pa_click_within_right_3?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_p=3163805422&pf_rd_r=82JJPMRTGDX815CMYADP&pd_rd_wg=8jXrN&pf_rd_s=desktop-rhs-carousels&pf_rd_t=301&pd_rd_w=qezMu&pf_rd_i=nic+network&pd_rd_r=33K0FBASQR364EXXMDD1&psc=1

So accord. to specs, CAT6A is good to 100M.  Wow, had no idea.  Either way,  too bad that video card's so big giving me just the one open PCIe slot.

Yep, one like that. Crap, I paid as least double for mine. Run it at 100 mbps for best SQ.

 

From there I have three pieces of bjc cat6a connected with two emosystems ITs and an Asus wireless adapter ea-n66 powered by an el cheapo lps.

[lmitche]

Latebloomer, I guess you know that all Regens are USB 2.0 devices and the Adnaco is a USB 3.0 device.  USB 3.0 runs at 10x the speed of USB 2.0 and therefore more appropriate for disk access.

 

I believe @rickca is currently testing the new IFI iGalvanic USB 3.0 solution as a substitute for the Adnaco, but in a different configuration then discussed above.

[lmitche]

7 hours ago, lateboomer said:

Frankly I don't quite get it which I see a lot of threads seem proposing fast access to hdd.  I see you using Startech enclosure to improve the access speed.  The thing is if music playback with USB 2.0 is smooth enough,  is switching to USB 3.0 give better benefit to sound quality? Could you tell me what hdd you are using and its rpm? 

It's a qeueing theory thing, think about it.

[lmitche]

Interesting, Ted has the same motherboard and had the same problem with his x8 slot. Did you check the bios to see if there is a setting to place the board into x8 x8 x4 mode?

[lmitche]

9 hours ago, rickca said:

There's no point using the Asus Hyper M.2 x4 in the PCIEX4 slot because it is managed by the chipset just like the M2H_32G connector.  You want to put the Asus card in either PCIEX16 or PCIEX8.  Unfortunately, I don't know why @sig8 had problems getting it recognized in the PCIEX8 slot.

Yes, I had a look at the manual for sig8's and Ted's gigabyte motherboard.  It clearly states it has the capability run both slots to pcie x8. I'm not sure why the switch doesn't happen in both cases.  Someone should call gigabyte to learn why.  Maybe a bios upgrade is needed?

 

The Asus card places the Optane card vertical orientation in a way that I suspect significantly increases convection around the card. It may provide better airflow then in a motherboard m.2 slot unless the slot is under the CPU fan and the fan blows downward.

 

I've been looking at z270 motherboards and it is tough to find the facts about pcie lane allocation. Seems that many boards are locked in x16 lane allocation to a single pcie slot.

[lmitche]

19 minutes ago, sig8 said:

Larry: Is there any SQ benefit in using ASUS card vs installing directly on the MoBo? Is there benefit in using x16 vs x8 vs x4 PCIe slots? Thanks.

Sig8, it depends on your motherboard.  If you have a motherboard with an empty ≥4x cpu direct pcie slot for the Asus, then it helps by avoiding conflict with the PCH. It certainly sounds better here as well.

[lmitche]

Did you check your bios.  The second pcie port isn't switching to x8 mode for some reason.  Maybe you need an update or a call to gigabyte?

 

No I don't have another thread to discuss the Adnaco. Feel free to start one if you like, or we can use this one.

[lmitche]

5 hours ago, rickca said:

Then the problem seems to point at the Asus card, doesn't it?  It works in the x4 slot but not in the x8 slot.  Other than talking to Asus tech support, I'm out of ideas.

Me too, im out of ideas as well. The asus works great here.