Why Do People Come To Computer Audiophile To Display Their Contempt For Audiophiles?

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14 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

What sophistry - simply pointing out a possible flaw.

Thank you for telling me what I'm not going to accept - I needed your insight

 

Well we had focussed on noise & your claim about it's inaudibility based on your measurements. I pointed out a test that you left out which you had stated on another forum you would like to see being done on a more regular basis. So your claim of inaudible noise cannot be made based on lack of measurement data that you already identified

 

Well, since the post about noise modulation on ASR, I in fact did some measurements of the DACs on hand to see how much it amounted to and therefore have new information.  Would still like to see more information in that area.

 

Is noise modulation audible?  At some level yes.  In fact if the modulation is considerable it will show up in the dynamic range test.  So your continued sophistry is to pretend complete knowledge is needed and lack of it destroys an entire body of useful knowledge. 

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6 minutes ago, AJ Soundfield said:

Put the cart back behind the horse, have "noise mod" show up audible in a trust ears test first, worry about showing correlated measurements later, no wild goose chases and shifted burden of proof.

Good point.  While I was curious about noise floor modulation, it often gets thrown about as an issue, while measures of it show not very much happening.  So my a priori judgement would be it is a wild goose chase. 

 

We don't have unsighted auditions showing it is a problem with modern digital gear.

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22 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

Again, can you qualify this claim? What level are you saying it is audible at & below what level not? What signal conditions cause audibility? 

Obviously if signal level produces a noise level with it that can be heard as noise it is audible. 

Think some radio reception conditions where the increase in modulation also increases noise and you hear noise come and go with the audible signal. 

 

It would be my opinion that if the modulation by signal never raises the noise floor to an audible level, like 80 db below the signal you aren't going to hear it.  Some people claim otherwise, but don't have any data I am aware of to show it is true.

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19 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

So, let's try to qualify this - are you saying that if noise mod is audible it will show up in the DR test?

Ergo, only when "modulation is considerable" will it be audible?

Nope didn't say that.  I said if there was enough noise floor modulation it would show up in the DR test.  Therefore the Ergo also doesn't apply.  You do work hard to misunderstand.

 

The proper DR test is to send a signal at -60db relative to maximum level through and filter it out.  Measure the noise left, add 60 db to the result and you have dynamic range. 

 

If signal levels are modulating the noise floor the two devices might have identical SNR and rather different DR. 

 

When is it audible?  Well if we were talking about a high noise system noise modulation might be buried by system noise. If we were talking something with 130 db SNR, noise modulation could occur, and still be so far down as to not matter at all.

 

So it would become audible at least where noise itself is audible.  It might be audible a bit lower. Then there are wide ranges where the resulting modulation is so low you aren't going to hear it. If someone thinks you can hear a modulation of a few decibels of a noise floor down 90 db from the signal they need to demonstrate that is possible before I would believe them.

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Yes it has. 

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31 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

Hold on now - as Aj says - put the horse back before the cart

 

You claim noise inaudibility from your tests

We see that you have left out a test for noise mod

Now you try to distract from your inaudibility claim by suggesting that noise mod has not been shown as audible yet

 

Your claim is now no longer a valid as there is a possibility that noise mod is audible - you even stated it yourself that it was audible above certain levels which I asked you the details of.

 

This will be my last reply to you mmerrill99.  Last reply on this thread, on this topic on this forum. You are simply posting in bad faith. Or your way of thinking is so alien no meaningful communication can occur.  Either way not worth my time as there are better things to do including doing nothing.

 

I actually typed in responses to your above statements.  I deleted them.  No point.  Your statements about what I have been writing or claiming are so highly distorted they are ridiculous.  It is your usual method to keep up such carping until people grow tired of your trivial complaints and consistent misrepresentation.  You no doubt once again consider yourself the winner.  Congratulations. 

 

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So here are some checks of noise floor modulation I did a week or so back.

 

They don't follow the AES17 recommendation that semente posted for us.  Just my idea of how to check it.

 

One signal is two tones at 3 khz and 4 khz that go from nothing to -20 db over several seconds.  I expected if the noise floor was modulated you would see it changing as the level went up.  I thought this range of tones is where we are most sensitive.   Blue is the noise floor with a silent signal playing. Red is the graph with the two tones at -90 db.  Green is with the two tones near - 20db.  I don't see much effect.  Maybe 2 db over silence if that. 

 

Next was a swept pair of tones 1 khz apart right near max level.  Shown as they near 16 khz.  Blue is silent track noise floor.  Red is the swept tones.  You see sum and difference IMD just each side of the tones, and you see a 1 khz difference IMD result a bit below -100 dbFS.  Otherwise not much going on with modulation of the noise floor.   I tried this with 4 tones changing in level and 4 swept tones without seeing anything so I didn't pursue it further. 

 

With other less good gear you would see the noise floor altered by jitter.  Or by aliasing effects as tones reflected around the upper frequency bound altering the noise floor.