Article: The Music In Me: Rap of History Backwards The

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Let's look at this from a pragmatic perspective first and then I will interject my own OPINION.

 

Rapping isn't singing nor is it really considered Poetry.  If you look at rapping, it's generally not even using a formal language like English.  It typically uses Slang, for which not everyone even knows the meaning of all of the words unless you are entrenched in that.  Take a melody from a song, ANY song with a great melody and sing a Rap lyric to that melody.  It typically doesn't sound right, it typically sounds stupid.  Take any Beatles melody line and replace the lyrics with rap lyrics.  It doesn't sound very good, it typically sounds STUPID.  Rapping actually came from Nursery rhyming, and there are plenty of rappers that actually alter a famous nursery rhyme with foul language rap lyrics.  Two Live Crew did that, so that's essentially their training in learning how to create a rhyme.  So essentially they are basically trash talking based on nursery rhymes.  Pretty sad if you think about it.  Rapping is basically childish, immature, illiterate, and filled with a lot of hatred, misogynistic attitudes and other attitudes against society, the police, because these rappers are essentially street thugs that have spent more time in jail or doing illegal activities than they have studying music theory, how to sing or how to play a musical instrument.  Anyone that puts these a-holes on a pedestal is an ignorant person.  

 

now, as far as the Last Poets and Gil Scott Heron they were more poetry since they were using the English language and they did study poetry and English composition.  Gil had a Master's degree in creative writing.  he also was a musician that studied blues, jazz, etc. as he was also an accomplished musician that mostly worked with other musicians that also studied blues/jazz, etc.

 

Now, the stuff now is not even comparable to the music Gil and the Last Poets put out. The Last Poets weren't even that successful.  No one really gives a rip about Gil Scott Heron's music anymore..

 

Rap has not musical scales, it's more of a rhythmic feel of triplet, or 16th note triplet feel, and that's about it.  With blues, you have blues scales, chord progressions and rhythms.  Jazz has scales and chord progressions and rhythms and it was derived based on blues.  Rap or Hip Hop have none of that, so in order to be a rapper, you don't have to study music, all you need is some catchy rhymes, swear words give it a higher shock value, and rap to a Hip Hop groove on a Roland drum machine and technically that's all that's required for a rap/hip song.   The use of sampling it just telling the world that you are a rip off artist and you have no abilities to create your own music because you probably can't even play a musical instrument.  

 

Obviously, everyone is generalizing and I'm sure we can take some anomaly and prove that Rap/Hip Hop is music.   As far as the Billy Cobham reference, the rapping portion was a very small portion of the song and if you removed it, the listener wouldn't have minded.  I would have preferred if Billy left it out and I'm sure Billy isn't exactly thrilled about the song since he doesn't perform it anymore.  I don't even remember seeing his band perform that song live when he was on the Magic tour.  Sometimes artists are forced to put shit on their album to appease the record label.    Just like Santana used a rapper on remakes of old Santana hits, but he doesn't tour with rappers.

 

I view the whole rapper/Hip Hop community as just a bunch of kids that are simply brainwashed by the music industry and most of them are simply clueless as to what to listen to and think is music.  they grew up on it, and that's what they are conditioned to THINK is music.   Most rappers can't sing, can't play a musical instrument and it's just all they can do because it's either put out a rap album promoting sex, drugs, money, expensive cars, hitting women, stealing things, going against society and "the Man", and it's just a lot of juvenile crap to make money.  Most of these rappers are more interested in their RAP Sheet to get street credentials, than they are interested in studying music, learning how to play a musical instrument or sing without having to use AutoTune.

 

The song rapper's delight, I saw it more as a novelty version of Chic's Good Times hit.  it was comical in nature and it stuck with the disco crowd.  BFD.  It just shows that some dumasses couldn't write and create their own music, so they had to essentially legally STEAL someone else's, put some stupid lyrics and sell it.  It's kind of reminds me of that South Korean PSI that had that stupid hit Gangnam Style.  Just a stupid song that attracted a predominately immature audience.    The music industry is filled with stupid songs that sell.  Achey Breaky Heart is another stupid song that was successful..

 

Now, as far as taking a Hip Hop groove where accomplished jazz musicians can do something with it that's worth listening to, sure. why not?  But that's not a Hip Hop song per se.  It's a Jazz song with a Hip Hop groove.  But there is a lot of what I feel is lame jazz that has a Hip Hop groove.  it's called Smooth Jazz. to me, most Smooth Jazz is just marketed with the term "jazz" to make it sound plausible, but it should be called Instrumental pop music with jazz musicians that couldn't make it as a jazz musician, so they went instrumental Pop because they had to do something to sell and make money. Guys like  Kenny G, comes to mind.

 

Unfortunately, the music industry tends to spend a lot of money marketing crappy music, and it's a trend that started to happen in the late 70's and it's progressively gotten worse and worse.  It's a shame, but most kids growing up today aren't learning how to play a musical instrument studying blues, jazz, classical, and other legitimate forms of music that actually have defining music theory behind it, so instead,  they are spending time on a computer, programming, using loops, samples from previously recorded music to create music. 

Too bad, but that's the world we live in.  So, we either speak up and express our frustration to people that will NEVER listen, or ignore them completely and don't buy into it, OR lower our standards and buy into it.  

 

 

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On 5/25/2017 at 6:37 AM, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

I'm speechless. I disagree with every sentence. 

Every sentence?  Really?   I looked up some of the things as far as the definition.  Rapping isn't singing. If you went to Julliard, Berklee School of Music, or any reputable accredited educational institution and wanted to get a degree in vocals, They don't require or even teach Rapping. It's not part of Julliard's curriculum, but jazz and blues studies is, which is the basis for most modern music like Gospel, R&B, rock, country, and pop music that came out as the music industry was created.    Rappers aren't taught how to sing.  They don't know anything about melody, scales, harmony unless they know how to sing.  It's a fact. It's rhythmic talking. And some do it better than others, but I've some that couldn't even rap that matched up with the rhythms they were rapping to.   It's not something to agree or disagree with.   Rapping isn't really poetry either. if you went to a educational institution and studied poetry as a major, I don't think they going to give someone a passing grade for your typical rap lyrics.  I just don't see the college lowering their standards.  I can only imagine a college Professor telling their students to come up with gangsta rap lyrics for a part of taking the course and they certainly aren't going to create a new degree called Street Poetry either.

 

 It's rhyming, but it typically uses Street venacular, or basically words that are either made up, misspellings, mispronounced,  twisted meaning of the original word.  (bad meaning good as an example) or (dis and dat, vs this or that), (axe vs ask) or (shiznit), the list goes on, you know people that speak very similar rot those that simply are illiterate and didn't get good grades in English classes or some do it purposely to "sound cool".  It's very common to hear them say the N word as that's how they refer to each other. It's also very common to hear them refer to women as the B word. Also fact. It's not in every song, but it's definitely prevalent in Dr. Dre's, Snoop Dogg's and most of the popular rappers recordings.  

 

I think it's the downfall of the music industry as it doesn't promote high quality melody lines or high quality musicianship.   It's garbage music and it's poisoning the kids growing up.  Yeah, I know, when Rock came out, the older generation said the same thing about rock.  But the difference is that rock had people singing, melody lines, and actual musicians playing the music and some of the songs have lasted the test of time.   But I would agree that rock did poison that generation as it fueled drug and alcohol abuse, but at least they didn't call people the N word or women the B word and at least they typically spoke English well, many actually had studied various forms of music and many of the people actually read books and literature for which they were studying poetry. 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, firedog said:

 

 

Degree in music/singing? How is that relevant? I'm pretty sure there are many types of Asian, African, and various indigenous styles of singing not taught at those schools. Doesn't mean they aren't singing or don't exist.

 

Check out the studies that show a larger vocabulary used in rap and hip hop than in lyrics by  Bob Dylan and other forms of sung music.

Your criticisms of slang etc are also meaningless. Just because it isn't standard usage doesn't make it illegitimate linguistically or less sophisticated than standard usage. It's just different.

I won't even get into the history of terms like "axe/aks" which are not simple mispronunciations, but are usages hundreds of years old that originate in African languages spoken by slaves. Sure, they aren't standard pronunciations, but they aren't "mistakes", either. They are simply part of a linguisitic subset of English.

I know of dozens of versions of English spoken around the world. Just because they vary from standard UK or US English it doesn't make them somehow inferior. Dialects are not, by definition, linguistically inferiror, just different.

 

Language isn't static. 

I might not use one of these dialects when writing  an academic theisis, but that is a totally different animal than spoken language. 

Um, most other countries do have their own institutions of training their forms of music.  Africa has a very prolific music studies program.  They original had drummers that were seen as the top musicians and they would teach other students. So, that was a informal studies.  But they do have colleges. I have met several that learned how to play musical instruments by attending these colleges and they were also taught jazz studies.  Many of them played quite a lot better than a lot of American musicians that studied jazz.  Yes, taking private lessons is a form of music studies and you can learn the same thing through private studies.   Japan not have music institutions that that teach the indigenous music of Japan?  Yeah, right. That's how they teach the music of Japan and they also have an education system that also teaches Classical, Jazz, etc.  India? Absolutely they have educational institutions that teach Classical Indian music.  These other countries have very rigid methods.

 

There is a top jazz musicians that said in an interview that if he wants to play with Indian musicians, he has to study the rules associated with that music so he can play with them, even though he wasn't playing traditional Classical Indian music.  He studied from several of the top Classical musicians which taught him the instruments, but the music theory behind the rhythms and melodies and structure.  But since Classical Indian music has a lot of improvisation, it can easily translate with jazz.  look at the Beatles. George Harrison studied from Ravi Shankar, they had some classical Indian musicians performing a song that was heavily influenced by Indian.  Great song too.  

 

Miles Davis had Classical Indian musicians playing with his band. So did Don Cherry, Oregon.  But Classical Indian follows the structure.

One thing that a lot of jazz artists tell people is that you learn the rules of the music system first and then you learn how to break the rules. What the Hip Hop Rap guys are doing is breaking the rules without knowing the rules, so it's out of their own ignorance, which is why they aren't really writing songs, per se, they are just doing whatever they can to create a loop and put stupid lyrics on top of it because they lack the education and ability to write songs and play an actual musical instrument.  That's why they essentially steal samples of other songs, create a loop and call it a song.  Yeah, right. That's a ignorant way to create music. Same thing with drum machines. Most of them are not trained drummers creating drum parts, and most of them sound kind of stupid. If a drummer uses a drum machine, then they are applying their expertise and can come up with something that's able to intertwine with their playing. Hence, Phil Collins as an example. 

 

But street vernacular isn't a dialect, it's just a bunch of illiterate people that never studied or weren't very good at learning the English language. Remember, most of the American Rappers are supposed to learn English while attending K-12, so it's not like they weren't given the chance. They are just illiterate.   Come on.   I just looked up Ebonics, they don't consider it a dialect.  They consider it American Black English.  But I don't know of any school that will hand out a degree in Ebonics.  It's a combination of the word Ebony and Phonics.  I just think it's a stupid because it's just glamorizing illiteracy. And no, a lot of educated blacks do NOT speak Ebonics or want to promote it. Call it what it is. A lot of it comes from gangs as they try to come up with a language so they can throw off the police that are trying to plan their drug deals and other crimes. That's how gangsta rap came out, but now I see a lot of kids that aren't black trying to ACT black by speaking the same language and copying their mannerisms, and getting involved with drugs, and committing crimes, etc. You know, monkey see, monkey do.  And it's just dumb and a lot of these don't come from ghettos, but they try to act like they did and many of them end up not doing well in school, going to college and getting a job, as they end up going to jail, getting involved with growing pot or selling it, or sponging off their parents. I've seen MANY kids do this and it's disgusting.  Some of the parents don't know what to do about it as they haven't reached a point of kicking them out of the house, which is what they SHOULD do.

 

I see nothing positive about Hip Hop/Rap and I don't hear anything that I feel is going to be a great song to listen to 40 years from now.  Great music lasts the test of time, and most of these Rap songs don't last long.

 

Heck, for grins, I watched a video of a Rap concert and I couldn't tell what they were saying, except when they yelled out something like "Hey all you mutherfuckers or bitches or Niggas!!" and then the audience goes nuts and screams along with them.  That's the only part that I could actually tell what they were saying.  The rest just sounded like a complete distorted mess. It was not enjoyable at all.  But I was just laughing at the audience, which was predominately white, getting excited when the rapper called the audience a bunch of X Y or Z.    It was a joke. 

 

Heck JZ refers to his fan base on Twitter as Bitches.  You think that's positive?  Really?  You think that's appropriate way for kids and young adults how to address one another?  Really?  You think that an educated person, regardless of skin color is going to do that? You think that's appropriate way to communicate in the work place?  Really?  Do you call your mother or wife or girlfriend a bitch to her face?  How does she react?  

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27 minutes ago, firedog said:

Glad you wrote this.

First about 99% of it is a non-sequitur - has nothing to do with what I wrote about  and doesn't rebut anything I wrote. Buy hey, I'm glad you used what I wrote as a vehicle to write about what you thought, regardless of any points made by me or anyone else here.

Second, you really are metaphorically speaking, deaf. So much of what you write is full of intolerance, prejudice, and stereotypes. It must be fun to self confirm your correctness constantly.

Deaf?  Hardly.  I hear quite fine. I just don't prescribe to crap.   If the person(s) can't play a musical instrument (singing) with a certainly level of proficiency, then I simply don't think it's good enough for me to listen to it. The music industry allows too much crap being sold.  

 

Intolerence?  What's wrong with not tolerating prejudgice?  These rappers are racist.  They are disrespectful to the educational system, women, other blacks, whites, the English language, which by the way is the chosen language of the USA.  They glamorize shooting people with guns, they glamorize hitting women, they glamorize smoking pot, etc. etc.  

 

Stereotypes?  Show me songs that Dre. has his name on it, that is a well written song with lyrics that shows he's got a solid education.  Go ahead. Same goes for Snoop, Ice T, Ice Cube, Eminem, and the rest of them. It doesn't exclude white rappers or other people of other nationalities.  I have not heard a rap song with any musical intelligence behind it where it didn't have sampled music that someone else unrelated to the band was on.  

Go ahead and live in your own world of Musical ignorance.  I was just giving examples of how the Hip Hop/Rap culture is screwing up society. Just to prove how stupid it is that it exists as a culture and as a form of musical expression.  To find ANYTHING with a rapper is hard to convince me that's it's worth taking seriously.   again, when is it appropriate to speak Ebonics?  Ebonics is the basis for most rap lyrics. Just in case you didn't know.

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35 minutes ago, firedog said:

Glad you wrote this.

First about 99% of it is a non-sequitur - has nothing to do with what I wrote about  and doesn't rebut anything I wrote. Buy hey, I'm glad you used what I wrote as a vehicle to write about what you thought, regardless of any points made by me or anyone else here.

Second, you really are metaphorically speaking, deaf. So much of what you write is full of intolerance, prejudice, and stereotypes. It must be fun to self confirm your correctness constantly.

BTW< I'm not prejudice against Blacks.  I have had many friends over the years. I just can't stand igorance in music that's created by those that are of ANY skin color.  Rap is just what was started by a certain group of blacks and now people of other races and skin colors do it, but they follow the same rules of ignorance. I don't want to deal with ignorance. If you want to wallow in your own ignorance, that's your issue, not mine.

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I pose this argument.  If you want to listen to music, the conventional way of thinking is that music is performed by musicians playing a musical instrument (singing is also included).  Now, in order to become a musician, one must learn how to play a musical instrument and be able to play various forms of music. If you aren't singing or playing a musical instrument, then it's not really music. I just don't' see how a rapper or even a DJ would qualify as a musician unless they can prove they have a proficiency to play a musical instrument or sing.  So, why listen to music that's performed or created by those that haven't studied how to play a musical instrument. 

Just like if you needed brain surgery, wouldn't conventional thinking mean that you would be better to seek the help of a professional medical doctor that specializes in performing brain surgery, or would you just seek someone that has no training in that area of expertise?   Or would just get a rapper to perform it, since they create great music without being a musician, so they can do anything even without having any education in that area of expertise.

While music isn't a life or death situation, it still holds true.   Rapping is not considered singing. Even DJ's don't require any knowledge of how to play a musical instrument or know any music theory to play a record, so they really aren't performing music. So why pay them money?  Well, I guess if you have a private party, or wedding and you are cheap where you can't afford to hire a band, then maybe hire a DJ, but they just put the records you want to listen to on a turntable.  That's not that difficult of a job, one just has to have the right record collection and know how to operate a turntable and maybe introduce each song where they get the audience to enjoy themselves.  That's about all a DJ might be good for.  

Sorry for those that think I'm racist, but I'm not.  Some of the best musicians in the world are black that I admire greatly, and they don't speak Ebonics, nor do they get involved with rap music.  If they did because they sold out, then they would drop a notch or two for selling out.  But most of them don't get involved with that.

 

Sorry, but I have standards buy which I measure what music I will pay for and enjoy and what music I will not. If I find the lyrics to be offensive, then why should I listen to them?  

 

Carlos Santana said in an interview, in the music industry there are artists and con artists, know which is which.  

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4 hours ago, Jud said:

 

Completely agree.  I have just always loved irony, and someone saying this isn't what they teach at "Julliard" struck me the same way (though certainly not in the same ironical league) as when a guy told one of my Facebook friends that my friend would come out second best in a battle of "witts" with him.

4 hours ago, Jud said:

 

It's not like bluegrass has repetitive beats or anything.    (Just teasing.)

 

I attended a bluegrass concert a long time ago, I wouldn't say it's my first choice of music, but if the musicians are proficient, I don't see anything wrong with bluegrass. It's not an easy music form to perform, it requires a lot of proficiency to perform it.  I don't know which bluegrass CD's are the go to CD's to obtain, but I won't mind owning them to listen to.  I'm sure they sound great on a good system.  I look at the level of musicianship in most of what I enjoy. I personally don't gravitate towards music that has a lot of anger in it.  The hard core metal and rap are the biggies I stay away from. Why listen to someone else's anger issues? That doesn't make sense to me. I actually stayed away from a lot of the rock music during the 70's as I was listening more to the fusion bands, which don't have vocals. They were all classically trained jazz musicians that mixed many music forms together so that was of interest to me.  Most of the concerts had musicians in the audience instead of the typical pop crowd.   :-)

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1 hour ago, ShawnC said:

Maybe Henry Rollins would write a poetry/rap version, full of angst of course.

Why don't you come up with your own?  Why wait for someone else?   Just learn how to throw a bunch of swear words, Ebonics and make it rhyme and buy a Roland drum machine and press Hip Hop Groove # 1 or #2.   And you can stick some Yo, Yo Baby's and some Mutherfuckas, etc. and spice it up with other colorful metaphors.  If you've listened to Nursery Rhymes, that helps.  It's the basic rhythm that rap uses. Triplets or 16th note Triplets.    Maybe it'll sell millions.  If you use more swear words, it's more likely to get more attention.   /s

 

If you want to sell it, then in order to boost your street credibility, you have to have an arrest record and/or been a gang member, so they know you're legit.  These rappers don't like phony wannabes, either you have street credibility or you don't.  BTW, that part's true for the hardcore rappers.

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Musicians have a bio of who they've studied with, what college they attended, and what musicians/bands they've played in,

 

Rappers have rap sheets of what crimes they've convicted of.

 

Both are used to give them their credentials to get gigs and  recording contracts.

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Just now, Ralf11 said:

he'd have to use swear words from Jackson's time, and Southern mealey-mouthed words, not Ebonics.

No he wouldn't.  The kids today can't relate to words use during that time frame.  Remember, you have to figure out who your target audience is and what language they can relate to.

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9 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Again, not saying you have to like it, but:

 

- Who invented fusion?  Miles Davis.

 

- Who did Miles Davis, inventor of fusion and one of the musical giants of the century, then go on to work with for his final album?  That's right, a hip-hop artist.  Good enough musical chops for Miles, good enough for me.

 

And that wasn't his best work and why it's not in my collection of Miles albums.  His best work, according to the jazz critics was long before that.  I don't like it when people "sell out' to gain an audience, which is exactly what the record industry was doing.  They did it to Carlos Santana when they did remakes of their old classics in order to sell albums to the younger generation.  That's how they were trying to get an audience for Carlos.   They stuck some lame rapper to ruin the music.  I didn't buy that album either as I was content with the originals.  Record execs have a lot more control over this than you think, and when I disagree with what they do, I don't buy it.  

Sorry, but I am not some mindless idiot that always goes along with an artist does, regardless of who they are. I'm sure Miles didn't dig it because his favorite musicians weren't on the album.  They had moved on by then.  Miles kind of went downhill towards his later years.  Did he tour with them?  I don't think he did. Just like Carlos doesn't tour with rappers that might have been on an album.   They just do the album to try to open up their audience and that's all it is.

The record industry does this to some of the greats if they have to fulfill a recording contract and their album sales are dwindling. What they do is pressure the artist to do something that goes along with the kids are listening to, and that's why they'll do that crap, even to someone like Miles.  I have other interactions with musicians that had recording contracts where they basically told them they had to do something pop oriented otherwise they'd get dropped.  So, in order to keep food on the table, they had to play ball.

 

Herbie Hancock lost a LOT or credibility when he started putting out that Rocket album with his older fanbase of adults. I was one of the fans that lost respect because it was garbage, even though it was his best selling album, etc.  but it was his worst as far as I'm concerned.  It lacked "jazz" and sophistication, which is what I expect of Herbie.  And then what happened?  He dumped his RockIT band and went back to his jazz roots to get his audience back. He's done some work with various other artists, but I don't think he's going to work with a rapper.  

 

I will tell you this, it's going to be a cold day in hell to hear McLaughlin hire a rapper on his albums.  He doesn't bow to record label pressures, and one of the many reasons why he left the US and moved back to Europe.  Billy left the US because he didn't want to deal with the politics of the US music industry either.  Haven't you noticed that these US labels are putting out so much crap?  That started to happen in the late 70's and it has progressively gotten worse. The only labels that seem to still retain some dignity are labels like maybe ECM or these small labels out of Europe that still give these jazz musicians freedom to not try to be commercial. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Well, let's no go overboard here. First of all, he wanted to capture some of the hip hop beats and use those in some new songs. That's a far cry from embracing Hip-Hop.

I don't mind a jazz musician experimenting with a hip hop groove, it's when they hire rappers and DJ's is typically when jazz gets screwed up.

 

I've played hip hop grooves with jazz, but it got old really quick if there aren't any decent melody lines to along with a hip hop groove.  But that's not Hip hop. Depending on what's being done, it's more jazz with a hip hop groove. I heard a couple of things here and there that were acceptable, but still no rappers or DJ's in sight on what I felt was listenable.  

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21 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Same jazz critics who deserted him in droves when he left Charlie Parker and be-bop to invent cool (one exception was Ralph Gleason, long time jazz critic and co-founder of Rolling Stone with Jann Wenner; this led to a life long friendship).  Same critics who then deserted him again when he left the cool movement he invented to start fusion.  Sensing a theme here?  Every time Miles moved to a new thing the critics hated it, until they looked back on it as a great classic period when they hated the next new thing he did.

 

How much credence do you suppose Miles gave these critics? How much do you suppose we should?

 

If you know anything at all about Miles and his personality, the idea of him bothering to "sell out" to anyone else's idea of what was good or commercial is pretty funny.

Just because an artist you like goes into a specific direction doesn't always mean you have to "buy into it".   This applies to everyone, jazz critics and fans.  

 

Some of this stuff is certainly experimentation, they try it once just for the experience and if they don't dig it, they do something else,, if they feel there's more to explore, then they'll continue in that direction until they run out of ideas and something to say with that group or musical direction..   Did Miles put out a stream of hip hop albums with gangsta rappers?  NOPE.  Why not?   Hip Hop doesn't always have rappers or DJ's.  You can have Hip Hop style grooves with decent melodies on top, but that doesn't mean a jazz artist like Miles would then be considered a Hip Hop artist.  He just seemed to be experimented with Hip Hop grooves.  Personally I don't member that album too well since I didn't buy it,  so I would have to relisten to it to be reminded of what it was and what is wasn't.  Miles wasn't a Hip Hop artist whether he put out one Hip Hop influenced album.  He was a classically trained jazz musician that experimented throughout his career.

 

I can't seem of find a single artist or band where I like every album they put out equally as much as the others and listen to them equally as much. We all have our favorites that seem to be higher on our own playlists and then others that don't get listened to as much.

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1 hour ago, Jud said:

 

Same jazz critics who deserted him in droves when he left Charlie Parker and be-bop to invent cool (one exception was Ralph Gleason, long time jazz critic and co-founder of Rolling Stone with Jann Wenner; this led to a life long friendship).  Same critics who then deserted him again when he left the cool movement he invented to start fusion.  Sensing a theme here?  Every time Miles moved to a new thing the critics hated it, until they looked back on it as a great classic period when they hated the next new thing he did.

 

How much credence do you suppose Miles gave these critics? How much do you suppose we should?

 

If you know anything at all about Miles and his personality, the idea of him bothering to "sell out" to anyone else's idea of what was good or commercial is pretty funny.

I just listened to one song and it sounds like they are using a drum machine loop.  Sorry, that's an instant turn off.  Also, the vocal part is just silly.  If they used an actual drummer and no vocals, it would be a lot better but the background music he's playing on top of is stupid. The rapper is just dumb. Sorry Miles, I won't be buying this.  Like I said. it sounds like a sell out bullshit Miles album.  Just because he did this doesn't make him a Hip Hop artist because he's still playing jazz melody lines, it's the rest of it that's just lame. 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Umm, 'cause he died?

 

Of course I'm not saying Miles *became* a hip hop artist.  Miles was always Miles and not confined to narrow categories.  But the last couple of albums he made before his death showed his interest in and exploration of funk, and for the last album in particular, hip-hop.

 

So what I'm saying again is that we're all completely entitled to like or dislike whatever we want, but I'd hesitate to dismiss something in which a musician like Miles showed significant interest as musically worthless.

That's one way to get out of a record contract or having to put out more albums with gangsta rappers. :-). Putting out Doo Bop is probably what killed him.  He probably pissed off his entire fan base with that garbage.

 

No, Miles wasn't even being a Hip Hop Artist putting that album out because he's playing jazz melodies, it's the others that were creating the backdrop loops, rappers that are the Hip Hop guys, and I would use the term "artists" VERY loosely.

 

Sorry, but Doo Bop album sucks. Now, I have to listen to older Miles with actual musicians to cleanse my soul from the Hip Hop stench.   

 

Ahhhhhhh. That's much better.  Now I feel great again.   

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39 minutes ago, watercourse said:

Doo Bop is an easy target: Not jazz enough for dyed-in-the-wool Miles fans, and not hard enough to be real hip hop. Straight up: He picked the wrong hip hop producer. It's a one-off and tough to consider within the rest of Miles' catalog. Remember Jazzmatazz? It had all the right stuff, but was also weak as hell. Watered down hip hop that you can't dance to... what's the point?

 

Instead, try some of the other musicians I mentioned earlier, if you want a true challenge to the arguments you've built up and can't let go of, relevant or not.

 

Try Robert Glasper. Tell me he doesn't have jazz chops. The hip hop on his Black Radio series is real enough to offend any haters in this thread. Really, you might bust a blood vessel cuz it's real rappers and real jazz musicians, all killer no filler.

 

I've tried to shine a light, but now I'm out. Time for me to say: Act like ya know.

 

P.S. All this is making me rip all my hip hop CDs and buy tickets to DJ Premier's show with The Badder Band this weekend. Look Premo up if you don't know who he is.

Yeah, Miles wasn't even alive during the entire album.. To me, it's just an Easy Mo Bee album where he got Miles to put his parts on top of pre-programmed crap, and then because Miles past away before it finished, they just stuck older Miles performances on top of Easy's loops.  Hardly what a honest jazz album would be. I know why it won the Grammy, but it didn't win for a jazz album it won for a Instrumental performance R&B album. The critics didn't dig it, I'm sure the majority of died hard Miles fans didn't dig it and it was just a last ditch effort for Miles to get attention and experiment with Hip Hop loops, etc. but he wasn't even around during the creation of the whole thing, so he never heard the final mix before being released. I wonder if he would have released it, had he been alive?  Maybe, maybe not. But the Record Label will release anything once a legendary artist dies, just like they released old, unfinished Jimi Hendrix tapes.  It's called MILKING everything they can get from unfinished work.  What a shame.

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47 minutes ago, watercourse said:

Doo Bop is an easy target: Not jazz enough for dyed-in-the-wool Miles fans, and not hard enough to be real hip hop. Straight up: He picked the wrong hip hop producer. It's a one-off and tough to consider within the rest of Miles' catalog. Remember Jazzmatazz? It had all the right stuff, but was also weak as hell. Watered down hip hop that you can't dance to... what's the point?

 

Instead, try some of the other musicians I mentioned earlier, if you want a true challenge to the arguments you've built up and can't let go of, relevant or not.

 

Try Robert Glasper. Tell me he doesn't have jazz chops. The hip hop on his Black Radio series is real enough to offend any haters in this thread. Really, you might bust a blood vessel cuz it's real rappers and real jazz musicians, all killer no filler.

 

I've tried to shine a light, but now I'm out. Time for me to say: Act like ya know.

 

P.S. All this is making me rip all my hip hop CDs and buy tickets to DJ Premier's show with The Badder Band this weekend. Look Premo up if you don't know who he is.

Sorry, when someone uses ANYTHING programmed instead of live musicians to play the parts, That's what I consider a demo.  Sorry, I couldn't sit through 2 minutes of the first track. It was just a mess.

 

I'll go back to listening to actual musicians performing together as a group rather than someone overdubbing on top of drum machine tracks and other annoying noises.  It's too bad people like yourself think this is great. I don't. It's not what I feel music is all about.  There is a thing called interaction between musicians that's not happening here.  That's what a lot of this Hip Hop stuff lacks.  No real musicians, no real music.

 

I would practice to recordings by myself, but that's practicing, that's not playing a gig or putting out a record. When I do those, it's with other musicians performing live, HOPEFULLY, at the same time, but unfortunately not always done that way.  It's very difficult putting out great music when you aren't even playing with all the musicians on the song and people overdub days, weeks or months later. I hate those types of recording projects. They usually come out lame unless it's a VERY rigid production of a song where everyone's parts are pre-written and there's no spontaneity involved.  But Jazz is all about spontaneity.  

 

Have you seen Whiplash?  If not, go watch it and think of me as the Band leader hucking the chair at anyone that thinks that drum machines to replace a drummer, overdubs belong in jazz.. They don't. EVER.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Jud said:

 

Again, not saying you have to like it, but:

 

- Who invented fusion?  Miles Davis.

 

- Who did Miles Davis, inventor of fusion and one of the musical giants of the century, then go on to work with for his final album?  That's right, a hip-hop artist.  Good enough musical chops for Miles, good enough for me.

 

Actually, I don't know if Miles actually is responsible for it, but he was there when it was happening, of course.  Actually, I believe John McLaughlin was a large part of that since he had told Miles to get Indian musicians to get involved, so I think it's a collaborative effort.  But John rose fusion to the highest level as he bridged the gap between more music forms than any other on one composition or album(s).  :-)

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40 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

It is not that his opinions are wrong, it is the premises that his opinions are drawn from.

 

ANd I don't like rap either - but I recognize it's truth, it's innovation, and the great sound tracks done by Chuck D.

Are you a musician?  Just curious.  What premise do you think I'm going by?

 

I am a musician that knows what happens when performing with other musicians vs playing to prerecorded tracks/loops.   There's huge difference between the two. So, if you are a musician that has also done both, then you should understand where I'm coming from.  if you aren't a musician, then you are clueless about the difference because you haven't experienced what musicians have experienced.   I like the energy between musicians performing together, it creates an energy that can't be recreated any other way.  It just can't.  If that's interaction, interplay and being spontaneous that is also generated and drummers play a huge role in the energy behind the music.  They can direct the band in so many ways.  Have you ever heard a horn band play with a crappy drummer and then the same band with a good or great drummer?  It changes the dynamics greatly.  But to play to pre-recorded tracks or loops, it's just not the same thing.  you lose sometjhig in the process. 

 

Are you a programmer that sits in front of a computer creating loops?  I'm just trying to get a better understanding here.

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8 minutes ago, rando said:

    

and they weren't doing it to put out an album to sell it and call it music, now did they?   But I'm sure they weren't using Ebonics, that's for sure.  They probably spoke the same language, right?  Well, if rappers want to sit in a room insulting each other using Ebonics, be my guest, and do it when I'm not around to hear it.. 

 

But to put it out on an album and to try to pass it off as music to make money?  NOPE.   They didn't do that.   Good try.  I'll give you an A for effort but an F for failure to understand the difference.


See how your attempt has failed?  Try again. maybe your second attempt with be better, but please THINK things through.  OK?

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23 hours ago, firedog said:

 

 

Degree in music/singing? How is that relevant? I'm pretty sure there are many types of Asian, African, and various indigenous styles of singing not taught at those schools. Doesn't mean they aren't singing or don't exist.

 

Check out the studies that show a larger vocabulary used in rap and hip hop than in lyrics by  Bob Dylan and other forms of sung music.

Your criticisms of slang etc are also meaningless. Just because it isn't standard usage doesn't make it illegitimate linguistically or less sophisticated than standard usage. It's just different.

I won't even get into the history of terms like "axe/aks" which are not simple mispronunciations, but are usages hundreds of years old that originate in African languages spoken by slaves. Sure, they aren't standard pronunciations, but they aren't "mistakes", either. They are simply part of a linguisitic subset of English.

I know of dozens of versions of English spoken around the world. Just because they vary from standard UK or US English it doesn't make them somehow inferior. Dialects are not, by definition, linguistically inferiror, just different.

 

Language isn't static. 

I might not use one of these dialects when writing  an academic theisis, but that is a totally different animal than spoken language. 

 

So you don't mind me calling you a slang derrogitory name? Really?  Oh, OK. then people shouldn't get all bent out of shape when they are called the N word or women called the B word/. So you don't mind communicating with the Ebonics crowd speaking THEIR language, which you probably don't know.  Actually, I was taking quotes from definitions I was reading, so please, leave your diatribe on the sidewalk.  Ebonics, is considered American Black English, which is different than the English that is chosen as the language of the US.  And not all American Blacks speak it or endorse it to be used.  This is based on black friends of mine that can't stand Ebonics being spoken in their household. And they also don't like being referred to as African Americans either, so there are many different views on this subject.

But frankly, I don't speak Ebonics as part of my daily communication it's not part of any form of communication with places of business that I've worked at, and it's not used in any College I've been to and I find it an insult to my intelligence to listen to it and to think it's something people should use, especially in music.  

 

So, I guess you don't mind people calling people names that are slang because it's just, as you say, different., which opens you up to be called a lot of vulgar disgusting names, which you are essentially telling me is OK.

What is acceptable to some people isn't for others.   I don't speak Ebonics as my daily form of communicating with others, I don't WANT to speak Ebonics, and I don't want to listen to Ebonics in music because I think it sounds incredibly dumb and it would sound even worse if they tried to sing melody lines using Ebonics lyrics. If I speak it, it's because I'm making fun of it In a comedic manner with friends of mine that also despise it.  

 

It sounds like you know something about languages, but try taking a song with a melody line that has lyrics that are in English and the replace them with Ebonics lyrics and see if it sounds like it fits and that it sounds good. I highly doubt you can.   Take a jazz standard and replace the English lyrics with Ebonics based lyrics.  See if you think it sounds equal as valid and that the listener won't tell the difference and enjoy both versions.  It hasn't been done by any professional that I'm aware of.

I find Rapping to degrade music, especially when the song has a great melody line and the rapper isn't singing the melody and their voice is more atonal without any musical notes being used.  It just messes up a perfectly good song and then the lyrics that are used are typically dumb, ignorant and childish in nature which makes it even worse.  Go listen to Carlos Santana's remakes with a Rapper. All he's saying is "Carlos Santana is in the house" and dumb statements like that.  He's adding NOTHING worthwhile listening to and all that rapper is doing is destroying the music which stands on it's own.  the same rules apply with the majority of rap music.  

 

Do you speak Ebonics on a regular basis and if not, why not? 

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It's kind of hard to ignore Ebonics and Rap if you live in the US.  it's used in TV shows, Movies, people driving around In their cars with their windows open and their stereo is blasting at 100dB+.  I can't always get to the mute on my remote when it comes on the TV while watching a movie or TV show..   I can't even watch certain shows because I know they, at. some point in time are going to play it.   It's offensive on so many levels to me.  The more I hear it, the more I despise it.  And I don't want to have to speak Ebonics just to go along with other members of society that seem to be brainwashed by the popularity of it.

 

I find too much hate speech in Ebonics/Rap music and I find that to be disgusting.

 

One thing I've noticed around where I live. I hear less and less cars with Rap being blasted.  Which is positive, maybe the local police are doing something to take these guys out of the picture so to speak.  At least I'm getting some amount of peace and quiet if that's the result of their efforts.  But it's still difficult to escape it.  I wish the music industry stopped promoting it as well as the TV and movie producers..  But I guess that's the only way they can get young people to watch their programming.

 

You say Ebonics and English are just two different dialects.  To me, one Is vulgar and the other isn't, so to me , they aren't JUST different.  Being different doesn't mean they are both equal in all ways and that either one is acceptable.

 

I could only imagine if the Constitution, Bill of Rights and all laws created in our country were re-written using Ebonics.  God what a nightmare that would be.

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21 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

John was and is terrific.  Most folks consider Wayne Shorter's title track to be the first fusion composition.

 

I read that Jeremy Stieg's recording of Jan Hammer's Sister Andrea with Jan and Billy Cobham was the first jazz-rock fusion recording.  There are people that intermix the title fusion and jazz-rock fusion.  yeah, I know it gets confusing.  The other argument, which I can understand, is the first example of fusion is probably really, really old that we don't know about since the fundamental concept of fusion is combining 2 or more different musical genres together. There were Latin Jazz being done many years prior to when Miles had his "fusion' recordings, etc.  Cream, which was also around in those days was a fusion band, as they combined blues, and jazz, and African and even some tinges of classical since Jack Bruce was a classically trained cellist, and Ginger Baker was a jazz drummer that also studied African rhythms. I was way into them before I got turned onto Mahavishnu.   The Beatles, in a. way were a fusion band when George Harrison brought Classical Indian into the music, and they did country/folk songs, etc.  

 

I just personally think that in terms of really taking one composition and listening to the various influences of different forms of music from a melodic standpoint, and a rhythmic standpoint, that John's  compositions such as Dream, which I sat down and calculated at least 7 or 8 different music forms hidden in that gem.  There might have been more than that, but that's at least what I counted as I listened to not only John's part, but the other players as well. I could be wrong on a couple of them, but I believe there might have been that many music forms represented, even if it was just a short passage in one of the solos. But the way McLaughlin constructed the melodies, it's clear that several genres were represented in the melody lines that it was just blended so well that one didn't dominate another and that's that brilliance that floored me.  It's hard to blend Classical and Classical Indian microtonal pitch bends and other forms of music into one melody line.  I still enjoy listening to all of the studio and live (even all of the concert tracks on www.concertvault.com) and I will never get tired of what that band represented. They were just set apart from anything else that I've seen and heard over the years.   

 

they were one of the biggest of the fusion bands of that early 70's era when it was at its height, and they were the biggest band in terms of notoriety, and I don't think there's a single band that would want to embarrass themselves by going on after their set.  Especially in '73 when they started to really got used to the material since they rarely practiced before they started touring.  I didn't really care for them being labeled jazz-rock fusion, because I felt they were a lot more than that due to heavy classical (different forms) and classical Indian influences as well as some Celtic, Funk, blues, and whatever else they brought in.  They just were special and it's too bad the first band didn't last longer. Their influence on other fusion musicians, classical musicians, rock musicians, funk, country, Indian, and God knows who else is just limitless.  I saw a country band with a violinist play at a local State Fair many years ago and they were from, I believe, Nashville, and damned if the violinist didn't throw in some Mahavishnu licks in a freaking country song. I was probably the only one in that concert that knew the passage other than the band members.   But it's good to hear that McLaughlin is revisiting that music with his current band for the remainder of the year while on tour.

Either way, I'm glad to have been around when they were touring.  Best concert experience in my life.  I got spoiled by their intensity where it's really hard to listen to anything else afterwards.  

I'm sure there was probably recordings long before the invention of audio recordings that there were musicians from different cultures blending together whatever primitive music forms they had.   I just think the modern jazz/rock fusion (0r whatever one wants to call it) era beginning, at least from my perspective, really started with Miles, but the others like John had a hand in it and I really think it's more of a collaboration effort as each musician brought their own influences into it.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, firedog said:

First fusion jazz-rock? Probably John Handy and his band.  I think they were performing it live already in 65, but certainly in 66. 

He also did the record "Karuna Supeme" with Ali Abhar Khan in 75, probably the best Western-Indian music fusion record ever done.

 

 

Ironic you bring that up. Because as a Germanic language heavily influenced by Hebrew, it was considered exactly that way by many Germans before WWII. Just hearing it spoken was often enough to result in an anti-Semitic reaction to the speaker, including violence. Besides being racists, the Germans who reacted this way were also ignorant of the fact that part of the reason Yiddish sounded "incorrect" to them was that both the grammar and pronunciation were derivative of German from the Middle Ages, with aspects that had been preserved in Yiddish but not in "standard" German. 

 

Sounds sort of like some of the criticism we hear of American Black English and other variations on standard English, doesn't it?

 

And don't get me wrong - I'm all in favor of people knowing standard English. But it has it's place, and just because someone speaks or uses non-standard English in a non-formal setting, it doesn't prove they are ignorant or in any way intellectually inferior. 

But was there any "rock" influence? I think it could be an early example of Indian jazz.  That might be true. but I never thought of John Handy as rock in any way shape or form.  

I'll check out some of the his earlier work when I have some free time. I went to jr. high and high school with John Handy Jr his son.  He was a crack up.  I haven't seen him since he graduated High School.

 

 

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44 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

There's "Open Country Joy" on "Birds of Fire," which I always loved, but these days I suppose we'd think of the quiet parts of that song more as Americana than country.  Yeah, I can definitely see a violinist getting into Jerry Goodman and picking up some Mahavishnu along the way.

I was always trying to figure out what that song had during the beginning section and where it came from.   Americana wasn't really a name I had heard until much recently.

 

Go listen to the live versions that are on concertvault.com They have over 50 concerts available and they do things with their catalog on some nights that are just insane. Too bad they didn't have all of their concerts along with the later revisions of the band.  

 

Yeah, even the Dregs were kind of a Mahavishnu cover band before they went original.  remember them?  That's another great fusion band that came a little towards the tail end.  Jerry has been playing with them, which is cool.