ISO REGEN launch thread! (product web page up; photos, etc.)

[Energy]

18 minutes ago, satfrat said:

After 35 years on second shift, it's what I do even now that I'm retired. Plus music always sound better at night.

It's true. Either I'm more calm at night like you are, or the mains power line has less noise.

[Energy]

I believe John created the list wrong and it goes more like so:

1) Separate LPS-1 on microRendu and ISO Regen

2) LPS-1 on ISO Regen and something else on MicroRendu

3) Same LPS-1 on MicroRendu and ISO Regen

 

FIRST - Two separate LPS-1's being used on each unit would provide the best rejection of AC leakage current for each device thus letting each perform well in it's own isolated domain. Since there are two independent linear power supplies, their positive and negative do not make contact between ISO Regen & MicroRendu thus offering proper separation.

 

SECOND - Single LPS-1 being used on the ISO Regen to provide clean power and 100% AC suppression. No leakage loop is created thus won't be passed over to the following device such as a DAC or digital converter. MicroRendu is powered by another power supply, preferably linear. The two are still properly isolated, however because the MicroRendu is not using the LPS-1, it's circuitry is still affected by AC leakage current and perhaps utilizes a noisier power supply (versus ~4uV of LPS-1).

 

THIRD - Single LPS-1 used to power both the MicroRendu and ISO Regen using a split DC output power cable. Due to both units sharing the same output power from the LPS-1, they both make contact with the same ground. Even though a new ground is created by the ISO Regen, it is in fact not new due to being tied with the same linear power power supply (LPS-1) thus can no longer offer galvanic isolation. The MicroRendu is SUPPOSE to be galvanically isolated through it's ethernet input however If by some chance that it is NOT isolated, leakage current can still be passed onto the ISO Regen if they are both connected through the same power supply.

 

All in all, If separate units are used, the ISO Regen can offer an isolation advantage. But like John says, who knows if any of this will account to sound quality improvements. These are only recommendations from a technical standpoint. 

 

Quote

 

If this ISO REGEN is galvanically isolated and data stream regenerated under a femto-clock, there doesn't seem any reason for the microRendu anymore. The simpler (and cheaper) SonicOrbitor SE with any power supply to the ISO REGEN with LPS-1 should work.

 

Or if one already has the microRendu with LPS-1, then just getting an ISO REGEN and using the already purchased LPS-1 with it and any power supply with the micro-Rendu would work also. 

 

Is this correct?

 

 

I would assume so as well. It seems as though any upstream device would work since full high speed galvanic isolation is provided after the streamer, source, or transport.

From what it looks like, the only gain from using two independent LPS-1's would be that the MicroRendu's audio circuits would perform better due to the cleaner power and AC leakage current suppression, however I'm not sure where it goes into the picture as it will be galvanically isolated anyhow once reaching the ISO Regen. I wouldn't think that any AC leakage would be passed through galvanic isolation barrier but could be wrong. In that case I would just use a low quiet power supply for the MicroRendu like an iFi iPower or DIY Sigma 11 (o11) with 9V output.

 

Anything I said above must be confirmed by either Alex or John for validity. 

 

Personally I am using a laptop computer and connected it directly to the ISO Regen. It in turn will supply a clean and regenerated signal to the following component, the Singxer SU-1 through the use of the USPCB Bridge (with 90° rotation). Both units will be powered by the LPS-1. This lets both units perform at it's best, and in addition, saves the DAC from AC leakage loops thus letting it perform even better.

 

Cheers,

Timothy

[Energy]

25 minutes ago, jos said:

Can I use the old Regen together with the new one? Will this improve te sound qualiy further? I am still happy with the old one and have to read more about the improvements the new one will make, so I wil be not an early adapter. First things first for me and that will be a better DAC and then I will decide, or just live with the old one.

 

It will not improve the sound further, using two in series is not advised.

The ISO Regen is better than the Regen, so it's best if you just sell your old one and get the new one.

 

Computer > Regen > ISO Regen = ISO Regen performance (but possibly extra degradation from the Regen just sitting in between)

 

Computer > ISO Regen = ISO Regen performance

 

Basically, there's no point for the Regen to regenerate the signal and pass it down to the ISO Regen if the ISO Regen was already going to do a better job anyways.

[Energy]

6 minutes ago, kalinka said:

What about having a ISO Regen before an ifi usb purifier, would it be of any use?

 

I use the original Regen this way and like the results.

 

The iPurifier as I know is another product of regeneration so it helps to minimize cable degradation such as impedance deviation or signal integrity loss from long runs.

 

Like firedog days and I stand corrected, double 'purification' may yield benefits. 

[Energy]

@Superdad

 

Alex. Like with what John says regarding losing galvanic isolation if the MicroRendu and ISO Regen shares the same LPS-1 power supply, does the same go for if the ISO Regen and Singxer SU-1 shares one?

 

I know the ground from the ISO Regen will make contact with the SU-1's USB Input, however after XMOS, the signal goes through digital isolation chips and pulls new power from the internal power supply. If this power supply is also run from the LPS-1, doesn't both sides of the boards become linked due to shared ground?

 

Also, the ISO Regen takes 6-8V whereas the SU-1 takes 5V. Using a split power cable, how can I properly power both units with one LPS-1? Do I need to use a voltage drop resistor for one device when the LPS-1 is set to 7V?

 

And finally, Is the 90 degree rotated USPCB your most recommended configuration for use with the Singxer SU-1? I tried looking at it multiple times and doubt that horizontal placement of the ISO Regen behind the SU-1 can be made.

 

Cheers,

Timothy

[Energy]

2 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

Yes if you do manage to power the ISO REGEN and the SU-1 from the same LPS-1 you will be bypassing the isolation in the SU-1, but you still have the isolation in the ISO REGEN.

 

Alex has previously responded to the question about voltages and the SU-1, make sure to find that post for the details.

 

John S.

 

Thanks John!

 

This is what I know so far:

BEST) ISO REGEN and Singxer SU-1 powered by separate LPS-1's

I figure this would be the best configuration, but I, alike many others do not have the funds for it.

 

Given your explanation, which of the three combination would you say is technically superior?'

 

1) ISO REGEN and Singxer SU-1 powered by LPS-1

2) ISO REGEN by stock SMPS |  Singxer SU-1 by LPS-1

3) ISO REGEN by LPS-1 | Singxer SU-1 by stock LPS

 

1) Being powered by the same PSU, digital isolation on the Singxer SU-1 is no longer functional.

Perhaps it's no longer required as the ISO REGEN already does a better job?

PRO:

• Clean Power
• Full Galvanic Isolation (from USB)
• 100% AC Leakage Current Isolation is provided for BOTH devices

CON:

• Possible noise from the ISO Regen's output is now connected to the SU-1

 

2) Being powered by separate PSU's, digital isolator's from devices are fully functional.

PRO:

• Clean Power
• Full Galvanic Isolation (from USB)
• 100% AC Leakage Current Isolation is provided for the Singxer SU-1 only
• Digital Isolation Between Both Devices

CON:

• ISO REGEN does not gain benefits from AC leakage current isolation offered by the LPS-1 due to the use of stock external SMPS
• ISO REGEN may bleed AC leakage current into Singxer SU-1 (and DAC thereafter)
• ISO REGEN may not perform as well due to using a SMPS instead of a LPS

 

3) Being powered by separate PSU's, digital isolator's from devices are fully functional.

PRO:

• Clean Power
• Full Galvanic Isolation (from USB)
• 100% AC Leakage Current Isolation is provided for the ISO REGEN only
• Digital Isolation Between Both Devices

CON:

• Singxer SU-1 does not gain benefits from AC leakage current isolation offered by the LPS-1 due to the use of an internal LPS, however has less overall leakage current when compared to SMPS
• Singxer SU-1 may bleed AC leakage current into the DAC
• Singxer SU-1 may not perform as well due to using an internal LPS

 

Now to my understanding, the ISO REGEN already regulates clean power from the Linear Tech. LT3042 voltage regulators to feed the Singer SU-1's USB Input (XMOS). With the isolation barrier working due to the use of separate PSU's, wouldn't it be best to use the LPS-1 to power the Singxer SU-1?

 

For someone intends to use a converter like the Singxer SU-1 after the ISO REGEN, wouldn't the improvements of the LPS-1 feeding the ISO REGEN be less significant than if it was used on the SU-1?

 

Cheers,

Tim

[Energy]

1 hour ago, JohnSwenson said:

WOW fantastic understanding of the situation, it really nice to know that people are starting to "get" this stuff.

 

All three block leakage loops from the computer to the DAC. #3 still has a leakage loop from the SU-1 PS to the DAC, so I would not recommend it. Both #1 and #2 have no leakage loops. So it comes down to #1 or #2. My gut feeling is that #1 might be slightly better, but it is close so either one could be the best. Really it is going to come down to trying them in real systems.

 

John S.

 

Thanks so much John, you are a ton of help!

 

Concluding questions if you may.

 

I thought #2 would still have a leakage loop due to use of the SMPS feeding the ISO REGEN? Wouldn't the outputted signal from that device to the Singxer SU-1 carry a leakage loop or is it neutralized at the asynchronous XMOS receiver or through the digital isolation stages of the SU-1?

 

If you stand by your word that #2 contains no leakage loops, then wouldn't #2 be better than #1 as each device utilizes it's own separate power supplies despite the ISO REGEN taking in a lousier SMPS?

 

I presumed that the SU-1's digital isolator would be beneficial in separating the reclocking circuit from it's input circuit as well as the ISO Regen's circuit. If the ground's are tied together, this would not be possible.

 

Unless powering both units up with the LPS-1 has more to gain than the isolation itself?

In that case, is noise coming from the ISO REGEN and into the SU-1 not as big deal of a deal as it's noise floor is already low? I don't know too much about ground loops, but wouldn't something like this be considered one and thus be considered undesirable? 

 

Cheers,

Tim

[Energy]

20 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

For all the people wanting to use an ISO REGEN with a SU-1 and an LPS-1, I just talked to Alex about this. He has done it, the recipe is:

 

Set the LPS-1 to 5V, use a Y-cable to power both at 5V. (see the DIY DC Cable thread on how to make your own) The VBUS output regulator will be undervolted so it won't actually be regulating (but the regulator in the LPS-1 is the same as in the ISO REGEN). The measured voltage is 4.95 V on the VBUS coming out of the ISO REGEN, this is fine to drive the upstream side of the SU-1.

 

This will preclude the isolation in the SU-1, but the isolation in the ISO REGEN will still be working.

 

If it were me I would get the external power kit from the manufacturer and cut off the internal cable, leaving pigtails on the both connectors. Then use a piece of 4S6 starquad to replace the cable you just cut off.

 

John S.

 

John (or Alex) is there any down side when the SU-1's isolation is no longer in affect?

 

Is there any ground loops or noise passed from the ISO REGEN over to the SU-1?

 

Would powering them with separate LPS-1's provide any incremental gains?

 

[Energy]

No problem at all John. You have done way more than what others would have done. Thank you so much for that.