Help with dsf to flac conversion

[zonka]

I have a track in dsf format - sounds great. I converted it to flac for comparison purposes (to 24/88.2). The track also sounds nice but the volume is much reduces. When I ran them both in Foobar's Dynamic Range Meter they both showed peak volumes of -7.12.

How is that possible when one track is clearly not as loud. Do I need different software to find the actual volume differences between the tracks?

Sorry if this is a silly question - I'm pretty new to this stuff and I am trying to see if I hear in degradation converting dsf to flac (24/88.2) for storage purposes and to have all tracks in flac. However, I do want them to be the same loudness so I'm trying to understand how the DR Meter works and what the values are telling me.

 

Thanks for any help you give:)

[orangem]

I have a track in dsf format - sounds great. I converted it to flac for comparison purposes (to 24/88.2). The track also sounds nice but the volume is much reduces. When I ran them both in Foobar's Dynamic Range Meter they both showed peak volumes of -7.12.

How is that possible when one track is clearly not as loud. Do I need different software to find the actual volume differences between the tracks?

Sorry if this is a silly question - I'm pretty new to this stuff and I am trying to see if I hear in degradation converting dsf to flac (24/88.2) for storage purposes and to have all tracks in flac. However, I do want them to be the same loudness so I'm trying to understand how the DR Meter works and what the values are telling me.

 

Thanks for any help you give:)

 

Hi zonka,

 

I got similar experience when trying to convert DFF or DSF track. Volume of converted track was much reduced or normalized. I am not an expert to answer your questions precisely, but I would like to share my experience with you:

 

1) I had tried to convert DFF file to some other lossless formats (e.g. FLAC) using Jriver MC, Foobar2000, and dbpoweramp. All resulted in different degrees of volume reduction.

 

2) Finally I tried Audiogate 2.3.3 build 5528 and found the volume level of the converted file is very close (by hearing, though) to that of the original file.

 

FYI, Audiogate 2.3.3 is a freeware for anybody with a Twitter account and it is still available at the official website:

 

Korg

 

(click the 'software' button at bottom of above web page to expand the download list)

 

By the way, what conversion software are you using? Please advise so that some experts here may better answer your questions.

 

In the meanwhile, see if you want to try out Audiogate2.3.3. Cheers.

[zonka]

Thanks for your reply. Yes, I used dbpoweramp as well. I just don't know why the dl meter would return identical values for the two files when one is obviously not as loud (unless I don't understand what the dl meter values mean - a distinct possibility!). I'm just trying to find an exact value I need to boost the gain on the new file so it is the same as the dsf file.

[kumakuma]

Thanks for your reply. Yes, I used dbpoweramp as well. I just don't know why the dl meter would return identical values for the two files when one is obviously not as loud (unless I don't understand what the dl meter values mean - a distinct possibility!). I'm just trying to find an exact value I need to boost the gain on the new file so it is the same as the dsf file.

 

6 db is the usual value used when converting DSD to PCM:

 

Why is There a Loss of Volume with DSD Files? | DSD | ForumsPS Audio

[orangem]

6 db is the usual value used when converting DSD to PCM:

 

Why is There a Loss of Volume with DSD Files? | DSD | ForumsPS Audio

 

Thanks for your input. I also know 6db is the usual value when converting DSD to PCM. However, same significant reduction in volume occured when I tried to convert DFF to DSF (for better tagging) using Jriver MC ..... maybe Jriver converts DFF to PCM before finally to DSF ????? That's why I am using Audiogate until I can I find better way for the conversion.

[zonka]

Would I "normalize" or "apply replaygain"? If I apply it to an entire album I probably want replaygain as it maintains the volume differences between album tracks, right? I want it to be a permanent alteration of the file (I have backups). So +6db, right?

 

Thanks

[testikoff]

^^^ Keep in mind that 0dbFS DSD = -6dBFS PCM (however, the SACD Scarlet Book allows the DSD audio peaks up to +2.9dBFS DSD = -3.1dBFS PCM. Peaks on quite a few SACDs go over 0dBFS DSD (most of Uni Japan SHM-SACDs, also some AF SACDs, i.e. CCR catalogue, etc.). Very few SACDs even breach the Scarlet Book recommendations, though (notably Michael Jackson - Thriller [uS SACD]). So, I would be cautious using auto +6dB pre-amplification in DSD->PCM conversions...

[kumakuma]

maybe Jriver converts DFF to PCM before finally to DSF ?????

 

This is my understanding of how JRiver does it.

[kumakuma]

Would I "normalize" or "apply replaygain"? If I apply it to an entire album I probably want replaygain as it maintains the volume differences between album tracks, right? I want it to be a permanent alteration of the file (I have backups). So +6db, right?

 

Thanks

 

I can't answer that as I just turn up the volume if needed.

[zonka]

Good info - so maybe +3db is safe? Is there software that can tell me exactly how much to add (that would require software that can decipher the volume, if that is even the right word, of a dsf file)? Otherwise, it seems like guesswork - which isn't a huge deal as long as it is close. I just don't want to go over the ceiling.

Thanks for your insights and education of a novice.

[testikoff]

^^^ If you are using a foo_input_sacd plug-in in fb2k & perform an album ReplayGain scan, you will also get the track & album peak values (in dBFS PCM) as a result. Then you can calculate the safe pre-amplification for the album peak not to exceed -0.3dBFS PCM & run a DSD-to-PCM conversion with this gain applied.

[zonka]

I just read that thread but i think it is saying just the opposite of my situation. My dsf files are noticeably louder than a flac pcm file made from the dsf file.

My receiver recognizes the file's as dsd and pcm, respectively, and the oppo isn't adding anything as I play tracks through usb.

So.....If the dl meter is telling me peak of -7db for both files then it is because the dsf file is first converted to pcm by foobar making both files identical.

Therefore, if I raise the flac file by +7db I've brought the volume back up to the dsf file when played by my oppo.

Am I finally starting to get this through my thick head?

[orangem]

Hi zonka, don't forget your ears are the most important pair of devices in deciding what will suit you best. All the figures are for your useful reference only and all test results still need final approval of your ears ... And what's good for other person's ears may not sound unacceptable to yours.

 

By the way, you may find following article interesting:

 

Archimago's Musings: ANALYSIS: A Comparison of DSD Encoders & Decoders (KORG AudioGate, JRiver MC, Weiss Saracon)

[testikoff]

I just read that thread but i think it is saying just the opposite of my situation. My dsf files are noticeably louder than a flac pcm file made from the dsf file.

My receiver recognizes the file's as dsd and pcm, respectively, and the oppo isn't adding anything as I play tracks through usb.

So.....If the dl meter is telling me peak of -7db for both files then it is because the dsf file is first converted to pcm by foobar making both files identical.

Therefore, if I raise the flac file by +7db I've brought the volume back up to the dsf file when played by my oppo.

Am I finally starting to get this through my thick head?

Well, your receiver may be converting DSD to PCM internally & applying 6dB or so gain while doing it...

[testikoff]

BTW, here is an example of another rare SACD, which has peaks exceeding the Scarlet Book recommended values (need to correct my earlier post; they actually are -2.9dBFS PCM = +3.1dBFS DSD):

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: The Rolling Stones / "Sympathy For The Devil" Remixes [DSD]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR         Peak         RMS     Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR7       -4.83 dB   -14.69 dB      4:05 01-"Sympathy For The Devil" The Neptunes Remix (Radio)
DR8       -5.07 dB   -14.48 dB      5:52 02-"Sympathy For The Devil" The Neptunes Remix (Full)
DR10      -4.30 dB   -15.56 dB      4:14 03-"Sympathy For The Devil" Fatboy Slim Remix (Radio)
DR10      -4.13 dB   -15.90 dB      8:22 04-"Sympathy For The Devil" Fatboy Slim Remix (Full)
DR11      -2.34 dB   -14.59 dB      3:44 05-"Sympathy For The Devil" Full Phatt Remix (Radio)
DR11      -2.26 dB   -14.45 dB      5:33 06-"Sympathy For The Devil" Full Phatt Remix (Full)
DR10      -5.32 dB   -17.82 dB      6:16 07-"Sympathy For The Devil"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks:  7
Official DR value: DR9

Samplerate:        2822400 Hz / PCM Samplerate: 176400 Hz
Channels:          2
Bits per sample:   1
Bitrate:           5645 kbps
Codec:             DST64

[mansr]

BTW, here is an example of another rare SACD, which has peaks exceeding the Scarlet Book recommended values (need to correct my earlier post; they actually are -2.9dBFS PCM = +3.1dBFS DSD):

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: The Rolling Stones / "Sympathy For The Devil" Remixes [DSD]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR         Peak         RMS     Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR7       -4.83 dB   -14.69 dB      4:05 01-"Sympathy For The Devil" The Neptunes Remix (Radio)
DR8       -5.07 dB   -14.48 dB      5:52 02-"Sympathy For The Devil" The Neptunes Remix (Full)
DR10      -4.30 dB   -15.56 dB      4:14 03-"Sympathy For The Devil" Fatboy Slim Remix (Radio)
DR10      -4.13 dB   -15.90 dB      8:22 04-"Sympathy For The Devil" Fatboy Slim Remix (Full)
DR11      -2.34 dB   -14.59 dB      3:44 05-"Sympathy For The Devil" Full Phatt Remix (Radio)
DR11      -2.26 dB   -14.45 dB      5:33 06-"Sympathy For The Devil" Full Phatt Remix (Full)
DR10      -5.32 dB   -17.82 dB      6:16 07-"Sympathy For The Devil"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks:  7
Official DR value: DR9

Samplerate:        2822400 Hz / PCM Samplerate: 176400 Hz
Channels:          2
Bits per sample:   1
Bitrate:           5645 kbps
Codec:             DST64

 

The peak level of a DSD depends on the lowpass filter used. A higher cutoff will increase the peak level due to ultrasonics. At the extreme of no filtering, every sample has maximum amplitude (0 dBFS PCM).

[testikoff]

The peak level of a DSD depends on the lowpass filter used. A higher cutoff will increase the peak level due to ultrasonics. At the extreme of no filtering, every sample has maximum amplitude (0 dBFS PCM).

 

I used FIR40 filter in my example, BTW.

[mansr]

I used FIR40 filter in my example, BTW.

Meaning what? The specified levels are only meaningful in combination with the associated filters. For SACD that's a fairly sharp filter with a cutoff at 50 kHz. If your filter differs significantly, the resulting levels don't mean much.

[testikoff]

Meaning what? The specified levels are only meaningful in combination with the associated filters. For SACD that's a fairly sharp filter with a cutoff at 50 kHz. If your filter differs significantly, the resulting levels don't mean much.

FIR40,i.e. finite impulse response filter with 40kHz cutoff frequency.