Focusrite REDNet

[mourip]

Ok. I am stumped that this tech has not taken off here. I have seen a few posts buried in other threads so I am going to start one dedicated to this wonderful PC to DAC interface.

 

I became interested in it while following a developing thread on HEAD-Fi. It started as a spin-off from a prolific and enthusiastic poster who has done tireless testing and listening of USB to SPDIF devices. As the ball got rolling he came upon a fairly recent but not well covered device called the Focusrite REDNet 3. This is a true AES67 ethernet to SPDIF converter which works in association with a Dante virtual sound card which allows an application to use ASIO to communicate via an ethernet port to another AES67 device which in turn outputs to a DAC.

 

The two most common devices are made by Focusrite and called REDNet3 or REDNet D16. They both do essentially the same thing which is to accept audio over TCPIP, even through a switch, and then output it as SPDIF via RCA or AES or optical connectors. They are not cheap at $1000 and $1600 respectively but that is moot as I will explain in a minute.

 

Focusrite is a Pro Audio company. There are very few companies making AES67 compatible equipment and no audiophile companies that I know of. These devices are capable of processing many channels at once and are overkill for audiophiles. They also top out at 24/192K, have a fixed input rate that must be manually changed as needed, and do not support DSD. This is also moot as I will soon explain.

 

OK. Stay with me. I have been slowly building up my system for about 30 years. I have tried a lot of things. I have always found digital to be bright and somehow fake sounding... at least until this year when I bought a Schitt Yggy DAC and added a Mutec USB converter in front of it. I was pretty happy and thought that now digital has reached or possibly surpassed analog.

 

After reading the thread on HEAD-Fi I decided to take a chance and try a REDNet D16. It has two ethernet inputs and AES and RCA outputs. It replaced a good quality USB cable, a REGEN Amber with HDPlex LPS, Mutec USB converter, and Paul Pang USB card with dedicated LPS. Probably better than $1500 of USB band-aids. The REDNet D16 cost me $1500 from Sweetwater(recommended).

 

It was not exactly plug n' pray. It took several phone calls to get it to work at the 192K rate. I also had to set JRiver to up-sample to 192K to match the D16. Frankly I have never been a fan of up-sampling but I decided to give it a try based upon the enthusiasm of others(understatement) using REDNet.

 

Why am I telling you this? I am now getting the most realistic, non-fatiguing, tonally satisfying sound that I have ever been able to achieve. It is WAY better that my USB system. I will not go further as I do not want to over sell this equipment. I only want to start dialog concerning it and it's possibilities.

 

I really hope that others will give it a try and that at least one audiophile company will take it seriously. My guess is that with some care, pruning down of Pro audio features, and adding automatic sample rate recognition, devices could be made for much less that $1000 or better yet incorporated directly into a DAC.

 

Best,

 

Paul

[mourip]

Is there a quality difference between the rednet3 vs the D16? (In terms of being a better digital transport for feeding a DAC)

 

As I have only heard the D16 I cannot speak to SQ differences but I believe that the differences are mainly in features and those being mainly for Pro audio.

 

The dual port ethernet on the D16 is nice as it allowed me to connect directly to my PC and still have a port to connect to the LAN. An alternative of course would be to have a dual port NIC in your PC.

 

The other advantage is the AES output connector on the D16.

[mourip]

I do wish it worked over wifi. My understanding is you must have wired Ethernet so far.

 

That is my understanding also although I do not know if the limitation is having wireless anywhere between the PC and the REDNet receiving device or just not having a wireless card on the PC.

 

I have not yet tried placing the PC at a distance across my LAN from the D16 to see if my switches pass the signal through without issues. I am envisioning having one PC and more than one REDnet device. I could then eliminate on PC and associated USB chain from my system. Currently I have a main system and a separate headphone rig.

 

I realize that I could use something like the Micro Rendu for a similar purpose but that leaved me back with USB. It hope someone will compare the two soon.

[mourip]

Thanks, Paul (mourip). I too have been following the head-fi forums.

 

Would like to try but for the lack of Linux support (am using a Melco N1A at the moment).

 

For discussion purposes, how does this differ from the network bridge solutions offered by Lumin/Aurender/Auralic? The uPnP protocol being not as good as AES67?

 

I have not used any of those devices. That would also be a good head to head comparison. In reading on CA I was left with the impression that AES67 might have the edge however. Just theory for me though.

 

All I know is how much better things sounded in my own system compared to the Mutec, which is a great device BTW.

 

I am trying to not over sell and avoid the "Trout Farm Syndrome". Ever been to one when you were a kid? The owner takes you to the pond, tosses in a hand full of corn meal to fish that are starving, and then the pond becomes chaos. You can then catch fish with a bare hook. Have seen this too often with new products on the forums we all love :-)

[mourip]

To the OP, the Mutec can still be used to provide the clocking between the source and as a Word clock input to the Focusrite..

 

For Dante, don't you need a Dante master as such, or will a driver/app live on a host computer?

 

OK. I do not want to sell myself as the expert as I am still on the steep side of this learning curve but I believe that you would need another Focusrite or AES67 device to be the Master according to their scheme. They do make a REDNet PCIe card with dual outputs and the Sweetwater REDNet specialist said that it could act as master. It is also my understanding that the DVS (Dante Virtual Soundcard) cannot act as Master. I am using the DVS which comes as a single license with the D16 and I believe the RN 3.

 

I do not think that the Mutec can be used before the D16 in a serial arrangement. Perhaps it could be used in "parallel" with it via a WC input. Rob on Head-Fi has used a Mutec after the REDNet 3 to reclock and said that it gave a nice SQ improvement.

 

I have another AES cable coming this week and will tryout the Mutec in conjunction with the D16 as a re-clocker.

 

Plenty of room for fresh exploration here!

[mourip]

I have been following the other thread since it's inception. I ordered a D16 from SweetWater early last week (it was back ordered) but just received notification that the product shipped today. The proliferation of USB "fixers" and NADAC provided the stimulus for me to do some basic research on other audio implementations. Sounds like many others have also been curious.

 

It's been an interesting week. Last Wednesday I received a uRendu and have spent about 20 hours putting it through its paces in RoonReady and HQP NAA mode. While I reserve the right to change my mind, my current assessment is that uRendu has better SQ than my dual PC setup with JPLAY (Using dedicated CAPS Pipeline). Given that the uRendu is about 1/4 the price that is pretty amazing.

 

I hope to start listening to the REDNet this weekend and will provide some initial thoughts between the two devices. I also have a Mutec MC-3 USB+ that I can use as a reclocker. Should be fun.

 

Glad to see interest growing. At the very least we have more choices these days!

 

I though that I would add that with my USB setup I was using Windows Server 2012 in core mode with Audiophile Optimizer. The good news is that I was able to install all of the Dante and REDNet software and drivers in 2012. The remarkable news is that I was previously running OA optimized in Core mode. The improvements in SQ so far with the D16 and DVS are all in GUI mode with OA rolled back. I tried reinstalling OA but it broke something and have not bothered to retry it yet and so am just running in vanilla Windows GUI mode.

 

...So either Audiophile Optimizer is no longer necessary when using DVS to ethernet or I have more improvements to come!

[mourip]

Dante has been pretty popular in Pro circles recently. Thunderbolt as well I have to say.

A recent entry to the Hi-Fi market from a Pro Audio company is the RME ADI-Pro 2 which I'm going to get to replace my current DAC.

IMHO REDNet seems a bit overkill for the majority.

 

Agreed that the features are overkill but at ~$1000usd for the RN3 which probably has the same SQ as my D16 it wonderfully surpassed my PPAv2 USB card>REGEN Amber>Mutec 3+ USB chain with everything but the Mutec on an LPS.

 

It seems pretty possible someone could/will make a scaled down and cheaper unit that will be killer.

[mourip]

Very interesting, have you tried redbook without upsampling, maybe it's the upsampling that's making the improvement? TIA!

 

I have tried upsampling at various times and have not liked it. I was disappointed when I had ordered my D16 and read that it did not do a pass-through of the original sampling rate.

 

Once I had the D16 in my system all of those concerns vanished.

[mourip]

I also wanted to point out some other reasons why I wanted to try out the REDNet and that is my growing recognition and appreciation of PRO audio devices. The Mutec opened my eyes. It's a great audio "Swiss Army knife" that IMO provides very good value for the $. The more I look at PRO devices (and Companies) the more I like their no-nonsense approach to Audio.

 

I pulled all of my USB paraphernalia out of my chain and started with just the supplied RN ethernet cable to RN D16 to Apogee Wide-Eye AES cable to Yggy. Wonderful improvement. Tonight I added the Mutec 3+ USB back in after the D16 as a re-clocker. 192k in and 192K out.

 

This brought the sound up to a whole new level of clarity and refinement. Choral music now gives me goose bumps.

 

I had originally hoped to just keep the D16 and sell the Mutec to fund that purchase but now have tossed that idea!

 

+100 for well chosen Pro Audio devices...

 

So I now have Pro Audio digital devices, an R2R DAC, a preamp with 80 year old tubes, 50 year old Western Electric speaker cables, DIY interconnects made from Belden Pro Audio wire, a single ended SS amp, and single driver crossover-less speakers.

 

Mix and match can get you there :-)

[mourip]

Pretty cool. Thanks a bunch!

 

Anybody know if the s/w could be installed and run on WS 2012R2 ? I don't see it listed and hoping that the Windows 8 version would work with the WS ?

 

I have the Focusrite and Dante DVS software successfully installed on my Win2012R2 server. SQ is stunning.

 

Installed without issue except for a couple of nag screens about firewall but works perfectly.

 

I did try running Audiophile Optimizer but it broke DVS. Might still work with tweaking but I have been too busy listening to music to worry about that :-)

[mourip]

The main reason for me is AES which I currently prefer with Mutec and Yggy. The only "spec" difference I am aware of between the two cards (Brooklyn I Module of Rednet 3 and Brooklyn II of D16) is that the Brooklyn II will handle sample rates of 176kHz. I can't comment on SQ yet because D16 is still in transit.

 

Another nice feature of the D16 is that it has two ethernet ports. This allows you to direct connect the D16 to your server and then use the other port as a "switch" making your LAN accessible to your PC. putting an un-managed switch between your PC and D16 may affect your ability to get beyond 96K according to the Sweetwater Rednet tech I spoke to.

[mourip]

Glad you are getting very good results with Rednet and Rednet/Mutec combo. Almost exclusively positive reports from what I have read so far.

 

FedEx tracking is showing the Rednet D16 should arrive Friday which means I'll have the weekend to play around with the unit. Looking forward to it.

 

Especially looking forward to your thoughts regarding the D16 vs uRendu. I think you will be the first to have both!

[mourip]

Great news then. On the AO, we should involve Phil and see if there is something he can do about it. What DAC and s/w player are you using ? Will Roon/HQP combo work with the ASIO drivers ?

 

Using JRiver and a Schiit Yggy. No experience with Roon/HQP.

 

Seems like Phil has his hands full getting Win10 to work. Someone suggested that AO turned off one of the DVS services so I will start with that. It is also possible that ethernet is less susceptible to the OS. It sure sounds good using the D16 with none enabled...

[mourip]

I was able to run Audiophile Optimizer on my Win2012 server using DVS with my D16 today. Previously I had tried it and got no sound out. This time I did not disable "drivers and services". I will try it again and enable that feature to see if it turned off one of the DVS services.

 

Truthfully it did not make much if any difference compared to when I had my USB chain in place. It is possible that AOIP makes these server tweaks less necessary ... and possibly entirely unnecessary.

 

I will experiment more.

[mourip]

Best as I can tell, which isn't necessarily saying much, I think somehow my D16 isn't registering on my network properly.

 

I just don't know why or what to do about it.

 

Joel

 

If you are not already doing so try connecting your PC directly to your D16's first ethernet port with the supplied RN cable. Then use the other D16 ethernet port to connect to your LAN. This might eliminate any connectivity issues while you get it up and running.

 

I had to do this and then I could start tweaking the settings.

 

Hang in there. It will be worth it.

[mourip]

One more thing.

 

My Windows playback device is now showing "remote device".

 

Is that what I want?

 

Joel

 

Mine does also and I am getting sound via JRMC. You need to choose the ASIO driver from within your playback application.

 

If you are using ASIO I think that it bypasses windows sound altogether.

 

What app are you using?

[mourip]

Gldgate, every time you play an album with different sample rate, do we need to change the settings in the Rednet control SW ? I have lot of playlist with different sample rate - does this mean I can't play them at one short ? One way to solve this could be to up-sample everything to, lets say 192k but with Yggy they don't sound as good.

 

The short answer is yes, at least until August when there is rumor of a firmware update for sample rate pass-through.

 

I have never been a big fan up upsampling however I also have an Yggy and can say that all of my files even Redbook sound remarkable through the D16 upsampled to 196K. I is the most musical, dynamic, and detailed my system has ever sounded. Big deep sound stage.

[mourip]

A few questions.

 

Has anyone connected their D16 directly to their server?

 

If so, any tips on how to do this or is it pretty much plug and play?

 

If a second cable with internet service goes to the D16's secondary port, will I still be able to remotely control my server after its direct connected to the D16?

 

Finally, on rednet controller, I'm not getting 176.4 as a sample rate option. I thought that wasn't an issue with the D16. What am I missing?

 

Thanks in advance for any help offered.

 

Joel

 

I have my D16 connected directly to my PC and then use the other port on the D16 to connect to my LAN. Works great with RDP and JRMC Remote.

 

Not sure why 176K does not show up on yours.

[mourip]

Thanks Mourip. What s/w are you using to up-sample - HQP by any chance ?

 

Just JRiver...

[mourip]

Do you have the latest software update for your D16?

 

I have the D3 and have another issue: the device doesn't show up in the Rednet controller. It's not really a big deal as I can work around with the Dante controller.

 

I updated my D16's firnaware when I first got it a couple of weeks ago. Probably a good thing to try.

[mourip]

Thanks for the reply, mourip.

 

Any changing of IP addresses in the software packages required or does this happen automatically?

 

Joel

 

Seems to default to DHCP so no need to config the IP address.

[mourip]

OK, I have to confess, I could use a little help here.

 

I have the Mutec MC-3+ USB but don't know how to set Dante controller to sync externally with my Rednet D16.

 

When I try to check the box for that option, it doesn't stay checked.

 

What am I doing wrong?

 

Thanks.

 

Joel

 

I am out of town or I would post my settings. If you bought from Sweetwater just call them. They have a tech that specializes in Rednet and is very helpful.

[mourip]

I did update the firmware, to no avail.

 

Another annoying issue is that the Wifi breaks whenever I send audio to the Rednet. I bought a beefier router (Asus RT-AC56U, with dual core and 256MB RAM) but the issue remains.

 

Do you guys have a separated (managed) switch? Or do you use a consumer grade Router with the Rednet?

 

I believe that RedNet does not support Wi-fi. I am not sure if that means that you cannot use a Wi-fi card on your PC for the ethernet out or if there cannot be a Wif-fi link anywhere between the PC and the RedNet device.

 

I use wired ethernet out directly to my D16 and then use the second port of the D16 to connect to my LAN.

[mourip]

Okay, just browsed through some of that. I don't trust sighted listening impressions for such differences. So I wouldn't put much weight behind it myself.

 

Those were not "sighted listening impressions" Dennis. He closed his eyes!

 

Can someone kindly tell me what "sighted listening impressions" means?

 

Do you mean impressions based upon theory rather than actually listening?.. or the opposite?

 

Or is this the endless measurement vs listening argument?

 

Or none of the above...

 

Thanks!

[mourip]

It means listening to component A vs B knowing which is which and then giving a comparison of how they sound different.

 

Thanks. Was not really sure but that makes sense.

 

My personal subjective experience based upon replacing a pretty tweaked USB chain that included a REGEN, which I liked a lot, and a MUtec +3 USB , is that the REDNet devices offer a very big improvement over USB in nearly all areas of my listening experience.

 

I have not tried using the Mutec as an external clock but found that letting it re-clock after the D16 was a worthwhile improvement, enough to justify keeping it in my system regardless of it's expense.

 

I think that for audiophiles the direction of AOIP is so new that a lot of folks are curious but trying to sort out hype and speculation from content. I do find the bickering and passive aggressive posts a turn off. If I was new and reading this thread to gain information I might turn away without being able to form an opinion about the benefits... which I think are considerable.