Battery power supplies for the Regen

[Cornan]

Thanks @Cornan (post #17) and @JohnSwenson (and @MikeyFresh). All this is crazy, and I thank you for infecting me with it. But that said, I'm only a dabbler. I picked up these units and did some listening today. Is there a break-in time for batteries like there is with other components/cables? On first listen, it's some great, some blah.

 

I am hearing remarkable transparency with the battery over the iFi iPower. But I am not hearing the PRAT I'm accustomed to, and I am not hearing bass lines as clearly delineated/crisply rendered, both of which I do get with the iFi iPower. Terms like "laid back" or "recessed" come to mind.

 

Should I run the battery in the system longer? (Happy to try. But happier with the iFi... for now!)

 

You are welcome feelingears!

IME battery power will always be more laid back and smoother than a good SMPS and LPS...but will gain in transparency and a lower noise floor. You will need some time to adjust your ears to the "new sound" with battery supply. However, it also highly depends on your setup. My sound have become a lot more "punchier" and dynamic than it was initially. This could partly be due to burn-in (could´nt be too sure though) and partly due to a change of USB cables (Elijah Audio Konvertible Lite), no 5v, GND wires on a distance plus Sbooster Vbus2 isolator both before and after USB Regen and external grounding of my battery supply (Entreq Minimus).

Anyway, I would recommend you to give it a "burn-in" and see if you will get use to the new sound.

[Cornan]

That is simply not correct. A very good linear PSU can have a lower impedance that is maintained, unlike that of a battery that is discharging, lower noise, and far greater voltage stability under varying load conditions.

You also need to take into account the proximity of the battery to the device to be powered (lead length and gauge of wire) as well as the type of connection made to the battery. e.g. soldered or via a push fit holder etc.

Long leads from a battery may also pick up RF/EMI.

 

That is why i wrote IME (in my experiance) Alex. I am not saying that batteries are overall more silent than a well made (and usually more expensive) LPS...but when batteries are used disconnected from the mains you will have a potensially lower noise floor since the noise cannot come through the "back-door" which is (so far) impossible to prevent with a LPS. Batteries do have their specific noises as well which is likely one of the reasons why I personally hear such a good improvement from externally grounding my Kingrex uPower through the USB output.

[Cornan]

Hi Alex,

 

Interesting approach! It is just that I always try to avoid voltage regulators were ever possible. However, since I have never tried it myself and I know that there are linear voltage regulators around I will keep it in mind and put it to the test when the next opportunity arrise!

 

/Micael

[Cornan]

Interesting thread guys. I've been using battery power for various parts of a souped up PC-based Streamer/player and the best I've found is the lifepo4 (model number: ANR26650M1-B). It's been mentioned several pages ago but I wonder why it hasn't been followed up...perhaps someone has already tried and dismissed it for this application? In my tests (and various others') it beat every other battery approach we tried.

 

The problem with many of the battery packs are that they have DC-DC convertors inside which don't help.

 

My approach would be to use two lifepo's in series, outputting 6.6v. The spec sheet says 6-9v supply for the mRendu so this would seem to be OK...although most psu's that have been tried are 7-9v.

 

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

 

I think most people would agree that LiFe04 in series would be a great battery pack for the Regen...but it is more difficult to find a suitable battery supply (batterypack with charger) with these batteries. If you know were to find it or have a suitable solution with LiFeP04´s please do post some pictures and links on this thread.

 

I would also be very interested to know if someone have used Ultracapacitors in combination with batteries to power a USB Regen.

[Cornan]

Apologies - I was talking about the mRendu. However, to try to answer your Q's...

 

I have only used single lifepo4's so far. The approach that I arrived at has been to use a standard (single cell) lifepo charger with a relay circuit to switch in and out of charge mode - for ease the one I've been using is Iancanada's design for his fifo project over on DIYA. When I'm done listening I just switch into charge mode and each cell is put into charge mode. This has worked for a good while now.

 

The tricky thing here is that when you have 2 cells in series I suspect that the cells need charging individually. Doesn't seem too much of an issue as we could add another relay to isolate the cells in charge-mode. However, this approach may remove some of the advantages of using the batteries in the first place by introducing components and additional junctions/joins into the circuit. I suspect that when I get around to testing this I will merely find a double battery case and then remove the cells and charge them individually.

 

Specifically on the regen, my best results have been obtained by powering the regen with a single lifepo - achieved by removing the initial regulator and directly powering the rest of the circuit with 3.3v. The 1.2v regulator remains in circuit and the 5v USB line is either 1) removed if you don't need it, 2) bridged from PC or 3) supplied externally. Thanks to JKenny for creating this recipe which I merely copied!

 

Nigel2000 has done much more work than I with batteries (not with regen though afaik) and his posts are well worth checking out.

 

Hope this helps,

Crom

Thanks for sharing Crom!

I have read about JKenny battery tweak of course but never wanted to violate the warranty of my own Regen.

[Cornan]

Sorry--just to clarify and stay on topic, my comments are about using the battery suggested in post 17 with Sonore's microRendu, not with a Regen. I am going to listen to that battery with the Regen in my headphone and office mini-system next. Given my experience with the Regen in those systems, I am expecting a notable improvement over the Mean Well SMPS.

Even if Regen and microRendu have some things in common it is a different animal all together that requires a different power solution. You will need to consider a carefully constructed & powerful battery solution. LPS-1 with a battery supply (that only power the Ultracaps without back-door noises from the mains) could potentially be a really good solution for the microRendu.

[Cornan]

That thought has crossed my mind too, but since I use a low noise shunt regulator after the voltage regulator, I decided it probably wasn't worth the trouble.

I did check ebay for suitable Ultracaps though.

 

Hi Alex,

I have checked for Ultracapacitors on ebay as well. A lot out there. I also found this link of a 9v battery with 10F Supercaps SuperCap 9V battery | Hackaday. This will ofcourse not be a good match for the Regen as is...but it is an interesting idea if used with step-down linear voltage regulators & Ultracapacitors with higher specs. Maybe something that will see more of in the future?

[Cornan]

Hi @feelingears and @Cornan

 

Just wondering how you went with the "Lithium Ion Battery 7.4V 4400mAh (2S2P) with PCM and Charger "after "settling in" period?

 

Did you end up still preferring the iFi 9V iPower?

 

I just discovered this thread and found it very interesting, for my microRendu

 

Hi Em2016!

This is a question for @feelingears only since I am not using a microRendu and have never listen to iFi iPower.

I personally use battery supplies to power my Aries Mini and Regen. I have only one device powered from the mains (DAC/HPA/PRE) while listen to headphones, 5g wifi connection to my Aries (=galvantic isolated), no 5v in USB and no GND in USB after handshake...and that is the point were the real magic starts with battery supply.

 

What I am trying to say is that battery needs a bit of planning and preferly a simple setup to perform. If you add a battery to microRendu you might want to add battery elsewere plus cutting USB power (depending on setup) as well to limit the mains power influences.

 

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[Cornan]

@Cornan That is the kind of post that makes me want to keep tweaking with this stuff! But I must resist... Kenny Barron's fabulous recent recordings are being neglected even though I do love my test tracks.

I hear you! :-) That is one of the reason why I have moved from a complicated pc setup to a managable streamer setup...dreaming of an Auralic Altair or similar in the end.

Music first is my key word...and too much tweaking tend to limit that hobby to pure audio testing 90% of the time. However, now I am were I want to be while saving up for a streamer/DAC/HPA/PRE (maybe with a wireless AOIP connection in the future?)!

 

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[Cornan]

Just want add the importance of removing the charger from the mains alltogether when using a battery supply. IME removing the DC plug only and leaving the charger connected in the power filter together with your other audio gears is not enough. Using a separate power strip with a built in power switch connected to the mains power filter for all chargers make it flexible and improves the sound quite a bit. Just flip the power switch to OFF and enjoy! :-)

 

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[Cornan]

@Em2016 Don't wait up for this... Life happens, and while I did put in some good hours this weekend, it was mainly to determine if there was a reason to keep an Audio-GD DAC-19 (10th) over the new Schiit Modi 2 MB. (Short answer for me: Yes--smoother, more analog sound. Worth $x2? "Maybe" to "no," depending on your system's character.)

 

As for the battery, well, I just don't know if I'm going to prioritize it as serious matters have come up.

 

I will just say that in my tinkering I would advise one to just wait for the LPS of your budget to come up and just go with that. @Cornan likely will disagree but he clearly has a setup optimized for electrical isolation/grounding. From reading here and tinkering, it seems this stuff all adds up so if you're going that route then go all in as that appears to pay. But only if you're all in, it seems.

 

Enjoy!

 

I do agree @feelingears!

Choosing the battery path is not an option just to change a single LPS/SMPS (DC) to battery. IMO it is about changing all LPS/SMPS to battery...leaving only AC mains connected devices in the audio chain. Also taking good care of the mains power and grounding is essential for best results as well as ensuring proper galvanic isolation of USB and Ethernet.

 

I am using no 5v or GND in my USB wires (unshielded). Galvanic isolated Router input plus strong 5G wireless connection to Aries Mini & BubbleDS Next control point (ie. 100% galvanic isolated). Only one device (DAC/HPA/PRE) connected to mains...remaining devices (Aries Mini and Regen) is connected to battery supplies. External grounding of DAC/HPA/PRE and Aries Mini. Sounds awesome!

[Cornan]

I indeed read of such an odd thing using the repeated discharge of inductors to recharge a battery, the findings were very odd indeed.

Personally, odd things makes me very curious. I have been curious if clean power makes a difference when charging a battery. So..what type of odd things came out of those findings?

I am sure there is something more that could be done to optimize battery charging or even make the battery supply cleaner!

 

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[Cornan]

I find If I wash my hands before plugging in the charger, to help.

Might be better if you keep your hands off!

 

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