Updates- Intona High Speed USB Isolator

[One and a half]

Hi everyone,

 

After reading the positive comments about Intona I have decided to purchase one Intona Usb isolator.

However have a concern about compatibility. I use Hegel HD 12 Dac in my system and would like to ensure whether the Intona is compatible with Hegel hd 12 dac or not? Any idea for that?

 

A lot of water under the bridge since CA first knew of the Intona. If you buy one now, the firmware has the handshaking under control. Still, for what it does, it should be separately powered to provide enough drive that the load demands. Another time.

[One and a half]

After reading about Intona, I decided a week ago to get one for my headphone system, which is Oppo HA-1 which has a sabre chip DAC. I recieved the Intona 2 days ago and it did wonderful things to my system. just like described.

 

But today I got my Hegel HD25, and the same cables and Intona going to HD25 dac instead of Oppo dac, and HD25 doesnt sync with the computer.. just a slow blinking signal after some fast blinking.

 

I can only assume, but I guess Hegel knows about the USB noice issue and is dampening the usb noice on reception side before sending the data packets to the AMK chip. And adding another noice reduced like the Intona, the clock sync is not strong enough for the DAC to sync with computer.

 

A little disappointed, as I wanted to present as clean digital signal to HD25 as possible.. and it worked wonders for the Oppo, except that the HD25 is way more highly resolution in soundstage.

 

Yes that can happen, one DAC works fine, the other is dead in the water.

If the chain is PC -> Intona -> DAC, the computer enumerates the DAC only, the Intona is transparent and doesn't use any driver, it is considered just a wire as far as the computer is concerned.

 

I've had some success in adding a simple powered USB2.0 hub between the DAC and the Intona when the Intona maybe has not enough power to drive the DAC's USB input. The hub provides a load that the Intona can work with.

Sometimes the computer's USB port doesn't play nicely either. Also try some very cheap USB cables keep them short as you can, but they need to be USB2.0 standard. Quite a few exotic USB cables have failed to work with the Intona.

 

At this stage try the hub, if not then refer to Blake's suggestion.

 

The more you unplug/replug, the DAC enumeration gets worse and creates multiple entries in the device register for the same device, this is for Windows. In the end it doesn't know one from the other, so it's best to remove the redundant entries and start from fresh. I remove the driver first, then remove the entries, reboot and reinstall the driver.

 

USB Tree Viewer

 

USBDview This software can delete obsolete entries in the registry

[One and a half]

Im so sorry for so many updates on the Hegel HD25, but I unplugged the power adapter to the small Logik usb hub, and the Intona Isolator connects to the DAC. So I do not need a powered USB hub. Still I dont like the hub solution as it adds another lengthy cable after the isolator to the DAC. so I need to find a solution regardless, but that was just something I figured out as I removed the power to usb hub.

 

Followed your posts so you are not alone Keep writing, it's good.

 

Good progress at least with the Intona connecting with the hub. From your listening, the 8kHz switching is known problem with USB transmissions where it meets another electrical receiver/layer and that it comes through to the audio is testament to the DAC! The 8kHz spike is known to Intona, and they remove any artifacts of that problem, so it's a non issue.

 

Give Intona some time, they do respond to problems, the Hegel is a relatively new DAC which may catch Intona by surprise. I can see you are keen to have a solution, the hub at least proves that the Hegel can work with the Intona. The reason I suggested the hub, is that for my system, the hub is substituted with an Icron Ranger 2212 USB extender and even if the DAC is switched off, the Intona still feeds the signal into the Icron at full LED flash level speed. The 8kHz is removed by MC-3+USB converter, so it's not a problem for my system.

 

To get USB right requires staggered or progressive filtering from the PC to the DAC, that's what I find. The Intona is a great start, others have used a Regen from Uptone Audio, or the Wyred Recovery Reclocker from Wyred for Sound straightens out the USB, and reflects gunge back the source. It does need more cables, but keep them short like 15cm or hard adapters. I use the Lindy 15cm cables, they are dirt cheap, and work better than the Oyaide Continental 5s expensive USB cables. So long as you use the cheap cables from PC to the last filtering device before the DAC (in the dirty digital domain, DDD), it's all good.

 

From my experience, the last cable to the DAC matters, so the use the Nordost here. The rest of them can be generics, short of course. I measured the amount of hum at the DAC for each cable on a scope, the Nordost came out better by some 50mV ahead of the Oyaide ad Generics, so I use this from now on.

[One and a half]

Thanks for a great post. It tells me a few things.. Short cables really short. I agree. My friend a electro engineer told me the same thing. So I will try to get a usb cable which is not a micro usb cable to the hub, and really short.

From the laptop I use a 40 dollar 2m cable, nice to move laptop around with. To the DAC its same type of cable made for stereo with gold termination, this one 1 meter.

 

I can not hear difference between the dead cheap printer cable and the audio cables with gold termination. not even a hum. But I do not have a big setup. it is the dac then the amplifier to my lcd3's.

 

Btw, I have ordered a Tascam UH-7000 to measure the analogue signal after the DAC to check for any 8khz spikes or any hum by changing cables. Before really investing hardcore in 500 dollar usb cable, I want to measure the effect if there is a hum or any other effect. I got some ideas with clear tones in different spectres to measure any distortion. not just tones on one frequency, but tones moving eg. from 7khz-9khz and back down.

 

Also, I want to measure jitter with J tests changing cables. just like the canadian. Just waiting for the Tascam device atm.

 

I see I have some spelling mistakes, sorry for that.. english is not my native language.. but I do speak and write more or less fluently.

 

It's great to see a method and then the practical experiments to back up findings. I believe you will find some very strange things in the search.

The Tascam will pick up any strange noises for sure. The hum is 50Hz superimposed on the shell voltage of the USB connector. It's the same as an analog interconnect, causes shield currents. So it is another reason to keep the raw USB from the computer out of the DAC.

 

As for the same mono frequency appearing louder in the right channel is certainly strange but an explanation exists. If the Intona is not in circuit, the frequency tone shifts and Intona in circuit, the tone is correct for both channels. The DAC must be picking up the extra unwanted rubbish and treating it as a real signal. Great pickup!

 

Even the best of of English posters make mistakes, it's OK, can see through and get what you are writing.

[One and a half]

I just searched for "hegel hd25 galvanic isolation" and yes it is. There is a product pdf specifying that the USB input is galvanically isolated.

 

Can you find out from Hegel what level of volts is required to overcome the galvanic isolation? Typically this should be 1000V or higher.

[One and a half]

Hegel has been reluctant to answer any electronically questions, but I am not an electro engineer, so I have no idea asking a question like that makes sense to be honest.

 

But I started reading about Schiit DAC's and none of them are galvanic isolated on the USB input, in fact, the USB input apparently draws current from the USB 5V connectors. No wonder why Intona and regen works on the Schiit DAC's.

 

I do know Hegel has their own built inhouse clock on their circuits, so I can only assume that the regen won't be audible on the Hegel products either.

 

It surprises me that users that owns Schiit Yggdrasil reports good results with the Intona and regen modules.

 

I guess if I had access to one Yggdrasil, I could measure possible similar things as I have seen with my Oppo HA-1 with and without the Intona. I do plan to measure test tones in the bass and mid-range to see how this affect the tone itself. Especially since this is so audible with the HA-1.

 

That's a shame about the replies. The figure will give an idea of what component is used to provide the isolation, sometimes devices are only 50V, this is not the effort.

 

What you are working on here is system integration, something that each manufacturer tends to ignore, but we the audio listeners have to take on issues and work through the problems for ourselves. I found the Intona has a dramatic impact on the sound and also the behaviour of signal flow and is/can be reliant on the regen or similar devices working as a whole including the cabling which changes the sound again. For reasons of isolation and adverse signal flow, it is best to keep the USB processing out of the DAC as much as possible and feed the DAC with AES3 or better still I2S/LVDS.

 

As for one day one device that can do everything, that may be well into the future, but in the meantime we need to cope with a Frankenstein of different pieces of kit that surprisingly works very well.

[One and a half]

Here's a really early post at CA talking about isolation.

[One and a half]

Hi Alex,

 

In the situation : Computer >Intona > Regen > DAC

Does the JS-2 to power the Regen can preserve the isolation benefit of the Intona ?

If Yes, what does the LPS-1 can bring more instead of the JS-2.

 

Sorry if that has been asked before.

 

In the situation mentioned Computer >Intona > Regen > DAC. The Intona is self powered and an isolation unit. It separates the leakage current from the computer to the DAC.

 

If there is another device, like the Regen or RUR or something else that's powered by another power supply, the leakage current from THAT power supply is fed back through the device to the DAC, which re-introduces noise again to the DAC which is no bloody good.

 

To avoid leakage current from the fixer power supply, replace that power supply with an LPS-1, to totally isolate the path of leakage current from the fixer and power supply to the DAC. There's no path to the DAC via a power supply.

 

Example:

 

 

This is the simplest approach using the Intona. Note the Intona has two lines through it to indicate it's an isolation device. Leakage current doesn't flow through (much anyway) past this barrier.

 

Now add a USB fixer, like a Regen or RUR something.

 

 

Leakage current from the Regen's power supply now ADDS to the USB signal again, which is what we don't WANT. Even using the JS-2, leakage current can pass to the DAC.

 

To fix, we use an isolated power supply, like the LPS-1 (which has a barrier like the Intona) so no leakage current paths to the DAC are created.

 

[One and a half]

Thank you for your explananation.

I understand that the power supply of the Regen could introduce a leakage current.

My question is, can I use an Uptone JS-2 power supply to power the Regen ?

Because for what I know, the JS-2 has isolated outputs that could avoid to introduce leakage current through the Regen power supply.

 

No. The JS-2's outputs are floating above ground and aren't referenced to ground. That does not mean the voltages from the JS-2 are galvanically isolated like the LPS-1.

 

The JS-2 has an AC mains friendly front end, which reduces crud caused by internal switching elements inside the JS-2. It's an ideal candidate to power the LPS-1 with some resistance due to the price..

[One and a half]

Thanks so much for pitching in Gary. Really liked the diagrams too.

 

For others reading, everything Gary wrote is correct.

(It's been a really busy week so hard for me to keep up with forums, e-mail, and production.)

 

 

 

 

Larry is also correct. None of iFi iUSB devices provide galvanic isolation.

 

There's a post I wrote in the sponsored amr page that links to a photo of iGalvanic 3..!

No responses as yet, the unit looks like it's bus powered and like the Intona will have less current for the dac's front end. Despite needing an lps-1, an isolation device really needs to supply the full 500mA to a dac to cater for all possibilities.