ECdesigns

[yogibear]

24” x 45” with 18” side baffle along the side walls. Mounted on 25mm thick black granite slab, polished on all edges, and top. Has plastic buffer feet for easy toe in. All 8” FR with nearly 95dB sensitivity and each 8 ohms. Top two and bottom wires in series, and then parallel = 7.2 DCR 

 

FRs from Top to bottom:
HF extension decreases, Qts decreases a bit, Fs decreases as well.

Top to Bottom: National FR, Calrad, Betsy, JBL Le8T

 

 Next plan: wire them all in parallel….. amp needs OPT swap… awaiting them.
 

May be some day soon, PDS and same set of speakers to compare… (Till I gather my choice of four pairs of identical FR)

 

Crazy experiment but with some tracks the impression is shocking…. I can safely say 17k to 50hz… ( more optimization pending before I measure these)

[yogibear]

7 hours ago, Norton said:

One thing I wondered  about these, as there’s no enclosure why do they need to be so wide, and with the drivers mounted to one side?

I wonder how wide are these ? Haven’t looked up ECDesigns website. The drivers are off centers to avoid peaks / dips in Open Baffles. I prefer to centre the drivers on front baffle and add a side baffle on one side which off centers the drivers (as per OB acoustic rule) and also reduces the front baffle width. And this also helps in better low end, giving full bodied sound and warmth to the vocals. 

[yogibear]

6 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

They are 60 cm wide. 

I should take some measurements (frequency response) of the speakers. 

 

That’s pretty fine, 24 inches wide for 8” drivers. I added another 18” deep side baffles on one side, keeping all drivers centered.

 

Before you measure them, toe in them at your listening position for optimal sonics and measure them centered at your listening position at ear height. Measurements at any other location would be misleading. 

[yogibear]

@hopkins Though I do consider the OB designed by ECDesigns for PDS to be very ingenious and well mated but if you can try and are interested, there are two drivers well suited for single driver duty in Open Baffle, perfect to be driven by PDS and who knows, may even supersede the OB array. The drivers are pretty high dB (97 and 101) and with wide frequency response in both the ends. 
 

https://www.fane-international.com/view-product/SOVEREIGN-12-250TC

 

https://www.fane-international.com/view-product/SOVEREIGN-15-300TC

 

I have played both and can suggest the baffle dimensions. 

 

 

 

[yogibear]

2 hours ago, hopkins said:

Playing only one speaker with some mono recordings (Coleman Hawkins) the sound is really incredible.  The absence of any crossover combined with the quality of those Tang Band speakers offers an ideal match for the powerDAC-S. I have personally never heard digital sound this good (and what is funny is that the source is basic!). In fact, this is probably the most satisfying audio system I have ever heard. I can now retire from this forum :) 

 

 

I would say it’s the magic of match made in Heaven, high dB OB plus Power DAC S. Since you now know what a small OB array sounds like with PDS, you should try a single driver OB too, as it will bring more sonic goods as OB array does have some shortcomings…. (One cannot go around laws of acoustics….)

 

Fanes have excellent frequency response from 17k to down under 50hz. There must be something special about them else a thread on them on diyaudio would not run to hundreds of pages and thousands of admirers… Pretty inexpensive to attempt as well.

[yogibear]

2 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

I hear you but I am worried that the Fanes may be a tad brighter. Have you listened to the them? 

I had both 12” and 15” in open baffle for about two years running off 1.5 wpc of Tube 45 SE to 17.5 wpc of ST35. 
 
They were a treat to the ears….

 

With a PDS I would be very curious to try and compare both OB array and single driver OB. PDS deserves both…

[yogibear]

17 minutes ago, hopkins said:

@yogibear concerning the limitations of arrays are you referring to timing differences? The ECD OB's four speakers are close to each other and occupy a relatively small surface so I am not sure this should be a major concern. 

No doubt it’s an ingenious, well thought design. The drivers are 8” so there could be some cancellations cause of lobing in certain areas however I am sure it brings out much more good at expense of a few shortcomings…. They are surely keeper for life. 

 

However a good single driver will be a point source, and it will be interesting to see what PDS brings forward with it. Hence I suggested Fanes as they are fairly very wide range, pretty high dB and high Qts, and inexpensive, making them a first choice to experiment in an OB with PDS.  
 

Also please read about Telefunken Open Baffle too… A well respected single driver OB design…. Glowinthedarkaudio is one interesting site… Just imagine PDS all over it ! 

 

I am just thinking about all these as what magic PDS could bring with them… it could be worth finding out…. 

 

[yogibear]

BUT, I almost forgot, Fanes are 8 ohms…. My bad…… 

 

Anything above 2-3 ohms won’t be desirable to mate with PDS……

 

I am sorry. Please disregard, everything I said earlier….. 
 

After building my own OB array with 8” drivers, I am leaning to experiment with Faital Pro 4Fe35 drivers…. Just to compare between both setups, with a desirable final 2 ohm impedance. 

 

 

 

[yogibear]

I bolted my baffles on a 25mm thick 2x2 feet polished granite panels, supported by four nylon buffers for easy placement. It worked just fine. 

[yogibear]

@hopkins This is where I took mine to with the PDR plus amp setup. It’s calculated at 110dB sensitivity. More upgrades planned…

 

[yogibear]

I am experimenting, prototyping, all are reversible and non destructive on the original L shape Open Baffle Line arrays. Currently after horn loading these have maximum output in the front and minimal in the rear hence no unwanted rear reflections. At present the sensitivity is estimated to be 105dB.

 

I am awaiting a pair of custom wound OPT for my tube amps with a secondary tap of 2 ohms which will make it possible to wire all the drivers in parallel resulting in further increase in sensitivity to 110dB.
 

Hopefully someday PDS will drive these and could be directly compared with PDR plus amp. Till then I am

most happy with PDR and enjoying the experiments…. 

[yogibear]

You must be experiencing quite decent low end and great dynamics.
 

To add sub bass to this, you may consider Ripole or PPSL in future, made around twin 12” drivers each side. 

[yogibear]

2 hours ago, Norton said:

This has sparked my curiously. For the sake of simplicity and a little more domestic acceptability,  would it be possible to have an OB design with just a single full range driver and have enough bass (at least for normal domestic listening)?
 

Is there such a thing as a 15” full range driver, for example?

For OB yes, check Fane 15-300 TC. Great specs and frequency response. 

[yogibear]

15 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

I love the specifications: "Superb when deployed for house of worship applications offering well defined vocal presence and clarity." 

 

But in all seriousness, this could be a great option - have you asked ECD what they think ? The frequency response curve is not a clean as the TangBand, and I do not know whether the mechanical properties are similar.

Because the powerDAC-S is so unique (very low distortion) you really need something that can live up to the challenge, in a sense, and will be able to reproduce the sound without introducing its own distortions - this is how I see things, but I may be overthinking it.

There is one more:

 

Fane 12-250 TC. Again excellent specs.

 

I wish these came with optional 4 ohm impedance and would have definitely attracted their attention. Nevertheless, worth trying and finding out.

 

There was hardly any indication of peaks when driven by tube amps. I loved them both. 

[yogibear]

28 minutes ago, hopkins said:

My long journey as an audiophile, which started when I walked in to a hi-fi store 25 years ago and heard an all analog system that impressed the hell out of my young years, is now probably over as I have found with this system a sound that is finally satisfying and convincing with all types of music. 

 

The speakers are probably perfectible, and I will remain open to improvements there, but the rest of the "quest" (sources, dac, preamps, amps, câbles...) is history, and what a relief that is! 

 

Interestingly, I am having similar experiences in this parallel world. The current horn loaded Open Baffles, run by combo of my latest tube amp with PDR, are giving me the sonic experience of the life time, surpassing the Philips setup that I listened to, at the age of 12  which haunted me till recently but now no more…

 

However, there seems to be no limit to “yet better sonical enjoyment” and I intend to make few significant upgrades in the chain following weeks…

 

However the PDR will remain the same, beyond which all further tweaks would happen. I am sure PDS would be a step up and I would know that someday soon. Till then it’s quite fun these days and no going back….

[yogibear]

On 4/3/2022 at 2:14 AM, hopkins said:

I finally measured the speakers (open baffle), but could only do this in my office, not living room - the room is much smaller. Microphone was placed roughly 1M away, centered with respect to the baffle (horizontally and vertically).

 

 

Nothing short of incredible….

 

Please also take measurements at your listening position.

[yogibear]

You are getting great low end because of the baffle sizes only, so enjoy them. The frequency response is all one would desire from his setup irrespective of any design….

[yogibear]

5 minutes ago, hopkins said:

By the way my evaluation of some of the music I mentioned in a previous post has changed as I have played around with the placement. For example, I think I mentioned that one of  Marvin Gaye's, album sounded  a little disappointing. This is no longer the case now and everything sounds great, with deep bass, clear mods and highs. 

 

The level of realism of the system is really impressive. There is, absolutely no way of going back to a conventional system. The issues of source quality which occupies a lot of space here on AudiophileStyle now seems like a bad memory, and there is no desire to tweak anything, only to sit back and enjoy music. Highly recommended! 😁

Congrats ! You are a lucky audiophile now !

[yogibear]

13 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

I'm a happy purist, and I am sure there are many more out there. They will find their way to ECD ultimately 😏

 

Power DAC S is great creation, no doubt and even 4 watts output is just fine. And since it’s an amp and DAC, the price I guess is right but the issue is not with its price or 4 watts output, it’s the impedance of 2 ohms it demands for maximum output.

 

High sensitivity bookshelf speakers play just well from 1.5 to 2 watts of SET amps. But they are mostly 5 to 8 ohms. 

 

Not everyone is a fan of Open Baffle line array. I wish ECDesigns come up with a DAC with same attributes as S model but only 2 volt rms output as all other DACs, no amp section. It could be priced less too and will give users to connect amps and speakers of their own choice and will appeal to all….
 

 

[yogibear]

S model DAC part is one step (or may be more) ahead of the R model. Hence I wished for a DAC only model at par with S which would be an upgrade over R. 

[yogibear]

After launch of S model, I guess they said there is nothing to improve upon wrt “DAC” part. So this is the final product and is a definite upgrade over R model. 

[yogibear]

8 hours ago, hopkins said:

I'm so in love with the sound of the powerDAC-S and the open baffles that I have decided to get a professional version of the open baffles made to my specifications (which after several months of tweaking sound good to me, in my room). Here is a mockup:

 

 

The inside wing will have a 30 cm extension (not shown above), attached with neodymium magnets. I'll be bolting the wheels (piano casters) after I receive the speakers. The base and panels will be made of Baltic birch plywood. The  front panel will be 24mm thick, with the speakers mounted flush. The structure will be more rigid due to the extra thickness and better "build". It should also look very nice. 

 

I am considering installing, in a second stage, foldeable lateral wings in front, perhaps made of acrylic to keep them light. I have been testing this and it seems to provide even more refinement to the sound. I will test it further with the new version of the speakers, to make sure I get things right.

 

The speakers without the extensions are fairly compact, and can be easily moved out of the way when not in use, with the extensions folded or stored in the back of the speaker.

 

Enjoying right now the sound of an LP, playing through my M2Tech ADC, connected to the powerDAC-S: https://www.discogs.com/master/1460546-Gildo-Mahones-Im-Shooting-High

 

Some audiophile friends came for a listen and were very impressed, describing the sound as natural, transparent, pure, non-fatiguing... You get the benefit of full-range speakers, without some of the often-found drawbacks (sometimes "shouty", sometimes limited bandwidth, etc...) - probably like listening to Quad Esl 57's midrange, with a little more "gravitas" ? 

 

I am sure there are other speakers out there that would do the powerDAC-S justice, but that will be for others to find out. 

 

One important lesson learned for me in all this has been to understand that many "theoretical" limitations that some people find with this system (toslink input, NOS limited to 24/192, limited power, line array speaker design, etc...) may be true but of little relevance when listening. For example, I read recently here that 16/44 could not reproduce music correctly 🤔

 

 

 

 

Now this baffle design looks very fine. Make sure the base is thick and heavy. I always end up using 20mm thick granite slabs and the baffle bolted to it. A slice of ply can be placed on the top of slabs. 

[yogibear]

1 hour ago, Marijn said:

Hi all,

 

Went ahead and bought the last Powerdac-s of this batch!  It should arrive next week, and after reading throught these pages I must say I’m very much looking forward to using it as a dac and, who knows, as an amp!

My speakers are 98db sensitive Altecs and I have diy tube monoblocks, based on 46 and 300b tubes, so I’m very curious if the amplifier part will deliver…

 

I am contemplating to DIY Tube 46 SE amp. Very curious about this tube. At present only reference I have is the JE labs simple 46. If there is anything else, please suggest. 

[yogibear]

27 minutes ago, Huubster said:

I'm still very happy with my PowerDAC-R by the way. Went further with some small mods, also in the John's Power supply, with really worthwile results.

 

I rust replaced all the cheap caps by now and used Elna Silmic II and Blackgate n-types. Not cheap at all, but with so much more musicallity as a result, really great. The PowerDAC keeps suprising me, it's so crazy good! These small changes have such a profound effect on sound quality for the better.

 

I want to really encourage you to try this, very easy mods most of you can do yourself I think.

Can you please link your post on the mods ? So far I am too quite happy with Power DAC R. 

[yogibear]

Thanks for sharing details on your tube amp build. I thought it’s two different amps each based on tube 46 and 300B. I have recently indulged in some sleeper tubes, F2a, RS1003 and after tube 45, next is tube 46. My builds are simple. 
 

Next iteration of above would be choke input. Iron is no issue at present as a good friend hand winds everything with some 0.20mm lamination cores in hand. Specifications and measurements exceed that of big brand names. We do OPT, chokes, heater transformers and power transformers for all the builds. 
 

Power DAC R is my benchmark DAC to compare all the builds. I also mocked up Open Baffle Line array, horn loaded it to get 105 dB sensitivity. Now with some exotic new drivers, will attempt a next version. 
 

I guess Power DAC S could be a fantastic combination with F4 amp as it has enough drive and the combo could drive any power hungry speakers….