UpTone/Swenson USB>Ethernet Audio Bridge

[Superdad]

From a much longer than intended answer/post I just made in another thread. I intend to go quiet about the project for a few months since we are busy and I have other important work to focus on. Plus, talking about unreleased products may be frowned upon by the kind management here at CA.

 

Superdad, can you confirm that your solution requires that the source computer has to be on all the time?

 

Yes, it does. Here is how it will be used:

 

a) The computer (anywhere in the house, and playing any locally stored, network stored, or web streamed files) gets a small dongle (about the size of your thumb) plugged into its USB port. An Ethernet cable--yes, a second one separate from the one already connecting your computer to your LAN--runs from the dongle to your Ethernet switch/router, or if you want, could run directly to your DAC.

 

b) The dongle looks like an async-USB2.0 XMOS-based 32/384 (and DSD128 via DoP) sound card--because that is what it is! Just as always for XMOS, no drivers needed under OS X, licensed Thesycon drivers provided for Windows. So just like with any USB-connected DAC, you can use ANY player s/w you like, and ALL streaming services, web browser, whatever can send audio out through it.

 

c) At your audio system end--anywhere else on the same LAN (can't cross Ethernet bridges without some special configuring) a DAC with another tiny module (consisting of Ethernet PHY, another XMOS chip, clock for those, ultra-low noise regulators, and special format isolators) pairs with the dongle via MAC address and not via IP address (we did not want to have to include a web page into the device for setting IP address, etc.--keeping it totally simple). This module (which can include a USB input if the DAC licensee wants that as well) accepts the master clock from the DAC and outputs to the DAC's main board a special format signal (sorry, important part of secret sauce, having broad implications for future), where it is received by isolators, run through a flip-flop and finally results in a I2S signal for the DAC.

 

d) Remote control of the user's chosen player s/w (since keeping the computer in a separate room is a typical application) can be via whatever of the many available means the user chooses. Anything from tablet/phone remote app (Apple's Remote app is fine on iOS if one is just using iTunes), to screen sharing/VNC, to whatever is available specifically for chosen player s/w.

We are staying out of the software business. The whole idea is to offer 99% compatibility with whatever s/w you use, and to not have any s/w support headaches.

And no, it is not multi-room, multi-channel, or anything fancier than what I have stated.

 

I hope you can all see how the UpTone/Swenson USB>Ethernet Audio Bridge solution will be very different from DLNA or other server/renderer models. There is no OS, no big giant processing chips, no s/w system, etc. We are just breaking apart the USB stack, putting the data into an Ethernet packet stream, receiving at the other end and finishing the USB protocol (not nearly as simple as I make it sound; lots of serious code written). And of course, this being a John Swenson affair, isolating, clocking (from DAC master clock), and PS regulation are all state-of-the-art. We, and our prospective OEM licensees, will be carefully comparing SQ of the Ethernet link to USB (both on the same DAC-side module, and versus the client's existing USB input). If it is a winner, then 2015 will be a very big and busy year for us.

 

To make this post the last word for a while about what is still a work in progress, let me preempt the obvious question about broader availability: After we get a few OEM licensees under our belt, we intend to offer a DIY version that capable users can install in their DACs in much the same way as they do with a typical USB>I2S board. Such a kit version will most likely include USB input in addition to the Ethernet (why not? the XMOS is there; just needs another PHY chip and a USB jack), and low jitter/phase-noise audio clocks--while still offering the line in to run from DAC master clock. And of course our required USB>Ethernet dongle will be included for the computer end (I guess if someone wanted our board set just for the USB input we would knock something off the price to omit the dongle from the kit).

A stand-alone, external box retail version does not make sense (unless we output I2S), but we have some radically different other ideas for when we get there--a long way down the road.

 

Thanks all for the interest. But please, no more questions on this for a while. We must first get it out there and prove the concept.

 

HAPPY NEW YEAR,

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

Ironically, this system seems to be far more complex than UPnP/DLNA as far as its network use is concerned. As opposed to the 'simple' streaming of non-realtime audio file data that UPnP makes use of, making clocking issues of the audio signal irrelevant (as far as the network is concerned), the UpTone/Swenson USB>Ethernet Audio Bridge is potentially introducing these issues by what appears to be its use of sending realtime audio signal data over the network. If this is so, for me the obvious question is how does its network hardware avoid these problems.

 

No, that is NOT how it works. We are still using standard Ethernet packets--going through any Ethernet switch. You will just have to wait and see.

[Superdad]

Can you clarify this?

Does the dongle/DAC module hardware pair do the necessary 'magic' to avoid the potential network timing issues of sending a realtime audio signal?

 

There is a small buffer. Ethernet is PLENTY fast anyway. Really don't want to say more at this time, thanks.

[Superdad]

On 3/18/2017 at 4:00 AM, R1200CL said:

 

Alex

 

I know this was two years ago. Is this what turned into the MicroRendu and if so, how come this ended up under another company's product line ?

 

Are there any plans of making a Ethernet to SPDIF Brigde ? John said it would be expensive, but can it be done below 1K ? (And it won't happen this year)

 

Any plans of developing an audiophile switch, or modify an existing one ?

Or spesify one, and have manufactures quote for it ?

Or start a joint venture with D-link or similar ?

 

Is it possible to take a NUC board and make a audiophile version of it. Or I probably should also ask is this within you and John's capabilities to do ?

 

What could such modifications be, or is it better to define the specification and have the motherboard manufacturers quote for it ?

 

How many boards would you think had to be made in order for a motherboard manufacturer to get interested.

 

Does anyone else have good suggestions for products not invented or made yet

Our USB>Ethernet OEM Bridge Solution project was put on the back burner for a bunch of reasons I won't get into here.  It still would be a market-viable product, but we have other things brewing.

 

But no, this is NOT what turned into the microRendu.  The projects that I do with John versus what he does for Sonore have found a natural dividing line: SOFTWARE.  

I only want to do products that are not heavily dependent upon custom software, operating systems, drivers, etc.  Don't want the support headaches and while John writes plenty of code, doing custom drivers and stuff that has to be kept up with OS changes, etc. is a real turn-off for him. (You will note that he did only the hardware engineering for the microRendu--Andrew, Jesus, and the rest of the Sonore team do all the s/w stuff.)

 

As for an Ethernet>S/PDIF "bridge":

a) I am not an S/PDIF fan (would rather see a DAC done right with really good Ethernet>I2S or USB>I2S built in);

b) Until the perennially promised Ravenna OEM modules show up--with free or modest license virtual sound card (VSC) software (on all major platforms, supported well to changing OSs--and not sample-rate restricted)--I don't think we are going to see the Ethernet inputs on DACs move much beyond DLNA server/controller/player schemes.

 

With regards to our other active product development projects--for both this year and next--I don't make those plans public until we are very close to production.

 

Cheers,

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

12 minutes ago, mourip said:

I would agree with John that ideally this technology would be built in to the DAC. My dream DAC would contain a Dante card build in with an ethernet input.

 

As you know I have been saying for years:  When both the Ethernet>I2S modules AND the VSC software become readily available, then you will see more Ethernet DACs.  

Dante is almost there, but you know the limitations.  I think it may take small, affordable Ravenna boards--and the leadership of someone giving away full-function VSC s/w with every board--before it will take off.

Every year is promised at the "Year of the Ethernet DAC."  Yet most are still waiting.  Your choice of the Focurite units is one of the very few choices available.  And as a pro-sound piece you know it has a learning curve beyond what most users expect.

Best,

--Alex.

[Superdad]

Hi Guys:

 

Wow, lots of misunderstanding and conjecture going on here.  I won't wade too far into it as I don't have the time.  And I'll let all these posts of the last 12 hours sit for a few days but might come back and sweep them away.

 

As far as what we were calling the "UpTone/Swenson USB>Ethernet Audio Bride OEM Solution" (a mouthful that would eventually get some catchy marketing name), that project has been on indefinite hold for sometime.

There are various reasons, but I won't state them here.

 

But to be clear, the product was never going to have USB output.  The DAC-end board would be strictly Ethernet>I2S for use an installation inside a DAC.  Hence the "OEM Solution" portion of its name.

 

I'm not going to repeat what I have said dozens of times before about not being opposed to other Ethernet renderer modules (Covelez Bach, maybe something from Merging eventually, Audinate Dante if they update them, etc.).  But I won't get excited about them or expect to see them in use by mainsteam hi-fi audio companies until open or reasonable licensing of simple, supported, and transparent virtual sound card software (VSC) is offered.

 

--Alex C.