Best sub-$400 DAC for Mac

[Nuke Yuler]

There's a whole cult following for the Valab and a bunch trying to hot rod it out. A lot of people in the industry have been recommending it. There a new revision now for sale.

 

The latest revision adds a second clock (reclock) at the I2S right before the DACs and it can't be bypassed as is. Use to be only the USB had a reclock in the circuit. There are advantages and disadvantages to it depending on the quality (absence of jitter) of your source.

 

The Valab is a very rich sounding NOS DAC. "Rich" like the aural equivalent of eating bakery cheesecake. It's not a particularly clean DAC, though. Very sweet at $200 USD delivered. Keep in mind it's a NOS DAC for 16/44.1 only. Requires nearly 200 hours to burn in and open up properly. (Sold on eBay.)

 

- Rand

 

 

 

[Cubist]

Still waffling, I decided to get a set of interconnects that would plug into the audio output of the Macbook and thence to the integrated. I figured that I would then have a basis of comparison when I plug in my first dedicated DAC. It was better than I expected, particularly the percussion instruments at lower registers. I heard drums on a number of tracks from 'Rain Dogs' (ripped ALAC in iTunes) in a nice punchy way that I had never heard before. There is obviously a reasonable (if pedestrian) DAC in the MB. It lacked signal strength though, so I had to run at full volume on the MB and crank up the integrated more than usual.

 

Where it really fell down was opera. I listen to a fair amount of opera, all good quality, name-brand (DG, EMI Classics etc.) recordings, ripped to ALAC in iTunes. But this was harsh and shrill and just not that enjoyable. I found the soprano voices in particular seemed indistinct and perhaps 'muddy'. They also tended to meld with the strings in an unappealing fashion. I go to enough live performances to know that this is not how it should sound. Has anyone had any luck finding an opera-friendly DAC? Or is it really just a function of overall system quality?

 

 

[Erik333333]

Hi Cubist,

 

Just a couple of words from my sight.

 

My lack of knowledge of opera genre has settled me to choose a ref piece that I like to use for comparing audio setups - "Giordano: Andrea Chénier - Act 3: La Mamma Morta" interpredted by the magnificiant Callas.

 

Every time I used to listen to this digital recording I have been observing that the voice sounded strident, center constricted and was accompanied by a blunted narrow orchestra stacked on a back wall. There wes two distinc planes not sounding related, lacking dynamics and very uninterresting to listen to, but the interpretation of the diva.

 

The first satisfying encounter I had with opera playback happened with the Apogee Duet. It was quite a shock.

I was floored by the dimensions of the orchestra. It would still sound far behind Callas but felt like it is very wide, deep, detailed, layered with subtleties, dynamic and very dramatic. The way it was recorded really works at supporting the golden voice, just like a pedestal. The signer is, yes, centered and closer to the listener, but still very dimensional. Her voice could sound cristalline, very powerfull, constricted or cataclysmic. Actually, it follows her interpretation as she intends it to sound like! And hold on to your chair cause it is quite a ride!

 

At the risk of being judged, I was exposed unaware of the shrills that were awaiting me.

After just a few seconds she had begun to sing, my eyes were floating. After a minute or so, I was swimming in my own tears and convulsing in intense emotions, like a puppet under her control. I was instantly crushed. The power of her intrepretation was at least naively quite unexpected by me.

 

___________________

 

Of course the line-out of your mac won’t show what hifi is all about. None the less, it still can source music trough your system without an external DAC.

 

After multiple attemps at DIY and several hundred bucks of investment in parts and mistakes, not even considering the time for the learning curve, a well engeneered DAC was the solution for me at the end. It was a GIANT leap forward higher fidelity playback. (Forgive me Yeo, though I really did enjoy dancing with your Monicas for years!)

 

I could have picked another DAC than the Duet amongst a plethor of affordable devices. It’s xlr preamp was a no-brainer’s decision for my needs: portable, firewire bus powered, phantom power, stereo pre device with awsome converter.

 

So… I tend to egree with what has been said earlier in this forum:

Just pick one on your short list and it will give you plenty of what you’re looking for. It shure is wise to compare and try to reach the top investment/shine factor but we never know how it sounds before it is in line with our other components and fully implemented and burned-in. Of course This doesn´t add much to what i’m shure you already know, but I find it hard sometimes to comprehend how much efforts money and time audiophiles put into the great quest of the St-Graal of sound, just like I do.

 

I know I don’t have the best playback setup yet, just like I shure will "need to upgrade" soon enough but I try to forget about it. Hey, if a simple Duet can turn me into crumbs, it is probably not sane for me to try anything better!!! ;o)

 

I hope you will soon find a solution that will just let music stick to your soul, and forget about the rest.

 

Erik

 

P.S.: T’is funny how an intended couple of words tend to grow out of proportion.

 

[davidR]

Take the Apogee Duet into consideration, it has a volume control as well.

 

[alcina]

It is bewildering when people have diametrically opposed views on how something sounds - surely they all can't be right? However, I have reached the conclusion that they *are* all right, the problem is that the topic is subjective. There is only one way round this that I can see: jump in with both feet - just beg/borrow/buy (I won't advocate stealing here!) one of the DACs on your shortlist. Listen to it in your system. Work out if you like it, if you feel it's lacking something, if you feel it has any flaws, if you feel it has any fabulous features etc.. Then come back to the forums. Read all the reviews again - take particular note of the reviews that match your own thoughts. These reviewers are probably going to be on your wavelength. You and they are probably looking for the same experience. They are not "right" and the others "wrong", it's just that you probably like the same sorts of things as they do sound-wise.

 

Once you've got an idea of the baseline for each reviewer (both those with whom you agree and those with whom you disagree) you can start to interpret what they write. To be simplistic: if Person X says that the MegaDAC sounds thin and and boring, but you find it rich and satisfying, then if Person X next comments on the SupaDAC and says it's involving, rich and moving, then the chances are you are going to find it too coloured or boggy even. And vice versa.

 

Also take note of their whole system (often in people's sig), again if you have the same tastes in amp and speakers, you'll probably have the same tastes in DACs.

 

But, unfortunately, there's no getting around that first jump.

 

For my 2p on which DAC you should just for first - I started with the Apogee Duet and I now use the Valab NOS DAC. I am after a wide, wide, deep sound stage. The wide sound stage is important as I hate boxiness. I like to "see" clearly where the performers are positioned in the stereo mix. I hate sibilance with a vengeance, but I don't want to lose clarity and upper harmonics. I want musical, involving richness. I don't mind colour providing I like the shade So...that's the experience I'm after, and all my comments should be interpreted in the light of what I like.

 

I hope that helps you make up your mind which way to jump first!

 

@Erik

Ooer....isn't it just!

 

[Cubist]

@ Erik333333

Maria C. looks down (from the poster I have hanging on my office wall) even as I type this. A rare talent, I think.

Your experience of digital opera sounds very similar to mine, except that I have yet to have the eureka moment you describe.

The Duet is under consideration, but only if I can find a used one. I have decided that if I can't audition these things then I should not buy them new.

 

@alcina

Thanks for your considered response. It is of course true that this is entirely subjective, although my approach is always to ask: Does this sound like it would have sounded if I had been present at recording. Of course I don't know what it sounded like at recording, and that is why I consider it important to get out to hear live music from time to time, to learn/remember how instruments and voices actually sound.

Getting my first dedicated DAC box will certainly help me learn about what I like. I am pleased to have learned a bit about what I don't like about my current setup.

 

I got close earlier in the week to getting a Beresford 7510 , however the vendor is looking for better offers. We'll see.

 

 

[theppd]

I'm strongly recommend you to audition the VALAB and mhdt labs Paradisea 3 NOS DACs

 

[mr macgee]

I also highly recommend the Devilsound V.2, they have a 60 day free trial. I have one and it has vastly surpassed my expectations. Once burned in, I compared it to some very high end gear (Meridian 808.2) and it came very close but more equal or better to the Meridian G08.2 . I can't say where I went but I took my MacBook Pro laptop and devilsound to a store with a $150K system and was able to do a long A/B in the system against other sources playing the exact same music (there Test cd's ripped onto my laptop) with very impressive results. If I were you I would give it a try.

 

 

 

[Cubist]

When I was looking at the MF V-DAC, some time ago I came across lengthy discussions of the power supply and how to replace it with something better. I believe there are similar threads relating to Beresford and others. If external power supplies are of such concern that people feel they need to be upgraded, where stand the DACs that draw power from the computer? Are they not at significant disadvantage? I think that Wavelength has taken this question on in the Proton by using what I will over-simplify as a battery. I also wonder about the Duet. Does Firewire by design always provide suitably clean power at optimal amperage?

 

 

 

[Erik333333]

I have no knowledge about firewire power disign. But owning a PowerPC G4 TI and a G5 Quad, one interresting thing I noticed is that the sound with the Duet plugged to the tower is more "magical" than when it is fed with the laptop.

 

Could there be a difference in amperage or even power noise…?

Though I don’t understand why, the difference is obvious to my ears: with the Titanium, there is less "you’re-there" factor.

 

(A little bit out of topic here but I thought I should spread the word: Enybody interrested to mate a Duet with the first generation of MacbookPro should verify if the firewire bus is compatible with it. Apple made big efforts to produce laptops that where very frugal with battery power and went a little over board with firewire bus amperage limitation. I don’t have a ref link but a quick search will lead you to critical info.)

 

Erik.

_______________________

I’m having a BLAST with an Eugene Ormandy - Original Jacket Compilation

 

[smolteni]

Hi, for this price the only DAC that you have to take in mind is the Echo Audio Fire 2, or if you need digital SPDIF in and out take the AF4. I told you this think after move to a very expensive DAC (Weiss DAC2) and the differences between the two are very, very small!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[bluedy1]

I own an audiofire 2 and a dacmagic. Dacmagic is a superior dac. Audiofire is firewire and dacmagic is usb as well as spdif. If you use a standard usb cable audiofire and dacmagic are at the same level. If you use a good usb cable (in my cas a ridge street audio poiema) the dacmagic is much superior to the echofire. When I compare spdif and usb I feel they are pretty much at the same level (using a cheap digitel cable for spdif vs the poiema in usb): that seems to validate the Stereophile conclusion.

Audiofire 2 is extremely cheap so it is easy to test.

Hope that helps.

 

[Nuke Yuler]

I have (had) a DacMagic in a frugal but truly high resolution system. Considering again what I discovered before John Atkinson published his measurements and Gordon Rankin stated in an unrelated thread about the same CM108 USB receiver chip in the DacMagic...

 

The DacMagic's USB is not a critically proper input. Its CM108 USB chip produces high jitter and the USB channel measures badly against the SPDIF channels which produce superb measurements. My experience is there is a huge difference between the USB and coax SPDIF channels. The coax SPDIF can produce much better quality sound with characteristics typical of critically low jitter (clarity, focus, stereo spatial projection, etc).

 

I first fed the DacMagic with a Locus Cryoparts USB cable and then a Ridge Street Poiema USB cable in typical computer to DAC connections. The DacMagic produced a clean, clear, but flat and undefined sound typical of adaptive USB with too much unresolved jitter.

 

I then fed the DacMagic by coax SPDIF from an M-Audio 2496 PCI card. This was significantly better sounding typical of lower jitter. Next I placed an older model Monarchy DIP mk2 between the M-Audio card and the DacMagic coax SPDIF input. The sound quality was again noticeably better.

 

I went back to USB using an Empirical Audio Off Ramp 3 with an Audiocom Superclock 4 module. Server >Ridge Street Poiema >Off Ramp >Audioquest VDM-5 coax cable >DacMagic. This setup allowed the system to project well into the room with definition, focus, and spatial characteristics far better than any setup before it.

 

I'm repeating myself in this post but I do so to make this point: It's very important to remember there is a synergy between components that folks achieve with differing results. One person's subjective testimonials with relative, progressive experiences can often tell us what hardware changes can produce and what certain pieces are capable of giving.

 

My current setup solved jitter issues but If had it to do over I would probably start with a Wavelength DAC and avoid the adaptive USB problems in the first place. Like Gordon says, why fix jitter? On the other hand if you need to fix jitter the Empirical Audio reclockers actually, truly give you what you pay for.

 

This again raises a question: If the DacMagic SPDIF channels produce measurably superb low jitter characterisitcs, why did it perform so much better with a very high quality reclocker feeding it? This makes me wonder what an Off Ramp can do for better DACs.

 

- Rand

 

 

 

[Cubist]

Hi all,

 

I have started using the Ariport Express so that the (in constant demand) laptop doesn't need to be in the same room as the audio gear. This is working very nicely. Can even use fast user switching on the laptop (running iTunes) without interrupting the music and access both libraries frrom the iPod touch.

 

All this to say that my near term DAC requirement is now TosLink input first and foremost. I was really starting to lean toward firewire, but that may have to wait for a later phase when I have a dedicated music server of some kind. It is actually a relief to have at least some constraint (beyond $) on this now.

 

I am also resigned to the idea that high res may need to come at a later phase. For now 16/44 will do.

 

@Erik333333

I don't really have the expertise to pronounce on this, but I will say that I have read of people having similar experiences with different computer sources and I have read that a power supply that is able to supply the correct voltage at a higher current can improve the sound of a DAC. More accurately, if the current is too low or the voltage too inconsistent, increasing the first and regulating the second can bring improvement. YMMV. Look at any discussion of the MF V-DAC PSU for anecdotal evidence.

 

@smolteni

Thanks - I had not heard of these, but it turns out they may quite easy to get here. Unfortunately, because of the TosLink restriction mentioned above it is not a suitable option at this time.

 

@bluedy1

Thanks. Nice to see how different inputs on different DACs stack up to one another.

 

@Nuke Yuler

Fascinating stuff. Forgive my ignorance but what was the function of the Monarchy DIP mk2 in the second step rig?

 

This again raises a question: If the DacMagic SPDIF channels produce measurably superb low jitter characterisitcs, why did it perform so much better with a very high quality reclocker feeding it?

 

Without wanting to start a big jitter 'thing' it would seem that in this situation you is a disconnect between measured and perceived jitter characteristics.

 

 

 

 

 

[modjibe]

I wonder which of the two is actually better. The M-Audio cost 2,5x the Beresford, which is acclaimed from the critics.

For 120£, i'm ready to change.

 

[Nuke Yuler]

@Nuke Yuler

Fascinating stuff. Forgive my ignorance but what was the function of the Monarchy DIP mk2 in the second step rig?

 

Monarchy Audio sells a couple current DIP models. A simple Google search will bring the information right to you. The DIP mk2 was introduced in 2000 and sold for a couple years before the next model was introduced. Prices have remained fairly consistent around $300+ USD. (I got mine used on eBay a few years ago.) The Monarchy DIPs are SPDIF reclockers-upsamplers-signal reconditioners. The original idea was to place the DIP between a CD transport and an external DAC. The DIP mk2 model I have does not upsample. The benefits I heard are from its reclocker and signal reconditioning abilities. It works well for its price point, but it doesn't perform half as well as the Empirical Off Ramp with the Superclock option at over 3 times the Monarchy DIP's cost.

 

- Rand

 

 

 

[Cubist]

Well not quite. I finally managed to buy a cheap used DAC locally as was my hope. What I got was a 'TC-7510' manufactured by a company in Taiwan called Technolink. Not wanting to step into anything here I will reserve comment on what in fact this DAC is or isn't, but I found this link to be interesting reading:

 

[*]http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/about-pull-trigger-beresford-tc-7510-a-333695

 

In terms of sound quality, I will say the typical sorts of things. Highs are better defined particularly cymbals and such, which sound present, as in I feel as though I'm standing near the drum kit. I hear picks scrape guitar strings. Jazz trumpets sound like they have valves. At the same time the sound is in general is less fatiguing. I can (and do) sit and listen to albums from beginning to end. Opera is still a bit shrill and unfocused to my ear, but I'm beginning to think that opera - or at least the bel canto variety is challenging material for recording. Would love to hear some Opera on vinyl.

 

Having babysat others' high-end gear for months at a time, I know there is room for improvement. (For example: I am using throwaway interconnects and unmatched lamp wire for speaker cable at present.)

 

Thanks for all the advice; this has been a great learning experience.