Best sub-$400 DAC for Mac

[Eric51]

I would not recommend the V-DAC. I had one for a few days that I bought from AA. It sounded so bad compared to my 10 yr old MSB Link DAC III that I sent it back! I dont care how much it needed to burn in! It had that far to go.

 

Now that we are talking about the MSB, that would be a great buy on the used market for a couple hundred bills. Especially with the full Nelson upgrade, or upgraded power supply. You cant have mine! - I'm going to keep it. I am now running a Transporter through a Winsome Labs Mouse t-amp, Magneplanar MMG's outfitted with silver cabling. The Transporter has a better sound than the MSB but the MSB sounds very fine through COAX. I also sold my Rega Apollo after getting the Transporter. I was surprised how good of a resale the Rega was. Lots of folks out there trying to save a couple hundred bucks for a "new" sound.

 

Cheers

Eric

 

[Egon]

I'm operating on a similar dream. Here's what I do.

 

DAC: I like my $300 Musical Fidelity V-Dac, recommend auditioning it.

 

Main room, I feed the V-Dac with an Apple TV optical out. I've found the optical out sounds better from this than the Airport Express (likely jitter effect).

 

Other rooms: Have 3 Airport Express, and the N ones have never dropped out on me. G fights with the microwave and neighbors, so run a dual band network setup with Airport Extreme-N and the old G router you likely have in a closet, which is what I run flawlessly. Powered speakers for each room, can make recommendations on mine under $75/pr.

 

Use the ITouch to control it all. Family friendly interface too. I'm sure you already do this with your Macbook & Itunes. ATV adds a source, so you could have multiple zones of different music in the house.

 

Instead of the Mac Mini or NAS I dream of, I have an old PC in a closet with my router as my server. It's from 2001 and works like a dream for what I need... an ITunes library and a fat hard drive.

 

Video: The ATV can do this. I creatively can access the one I own on any TV in the house.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cubist]

@Eric51:

So you're saying that the VDAC was in your view fundamentally in capable or not a good mis in your system, or just too long to burn in? Love the Maggies - had some for a while and was sad to give them up.

 

@Egon:

It seems you and Eric51 above have had distinctly different results with the VDAC. This is one of those maddening, perplexing things about audio.

 

I have to admit that I am considering a small experiment with a used Express and a USB drive for my Extreme just to see how it works. I figure that's a pretty small investment and I can always sell the Express again if it doesn't work out.

 

Might do the same with ATV, although at this point I really don't 'get it'. I think I'm just not enough of a video person to see the appeal. I see though that you are using it for your audio - What exactly is the the role of the ATV in you system? Jast an AE substitute? Is it a source also? In addion to the old PC? Or is it where Itunes resides? Sorry - cluless on this part.

 

 

 

[Eric51]

Cubist - I think the thing I didn't like about the sound of the V-DAC was that it sounded very digital to me - going in the opposite direction from where I was wanting to go. In comparison, the MSB sounded what I would call NOS (non oversampling) like ie. not as squeaky clean from a distortion standpoint but more lifelike. I could tell right away that MSB used good quality components in their DAC, with a good power supply.

 

That was NOT the experience I was looking for! I let the V-DAC run for a couple of days and the verdict was the same. It could be a system thing. I dont know. I do know that my Magies tend to "show it all" in the mids and highs. There is no place for skinny sound to hide.

 

[Audio_ELF]

I think you might be right that it's (partly) a system thing.

 

If you found the V-Dac to be quite lean sounding, that could be because the Musical Fidelity amps tend to be quite bold rounded sound (sorry thats not a very good description). Certainly the overall sound from my A1008 is definitely not one that you could call lean though the pre-amp does include valve technology so that may explain the difference.

 

Eloise

 

[Egon]

Second things first. Main TV and my listening room are same in my house; I use the ATV video aspect for TV, audio for my critical listening, and overlap them with concert DVDs. Your wife will love the Apple TV if she loves her Touch.

 

Now if as you say you're not into video, the ATV has less appeal for your listening room. Essentially it's an ITunes server, or an IPod with a digital out and wireless access. It won't do anything you can't do on your MacBook, but it'll make it so you don't have to borrow the laptop from your wife when you want to listen to music.

 

Get an Express and plug in powered speakers and see if this makes your wife happy as she can control everything with her Touch. Run the Express at 5GHz to prevent dropouts.

 

So back to the first thing, the DAC. I like my V-Dac a lot, on my possibly less revealing system in my room with my personal tastes. I also appreciate the flexibility of USB, Coax, and Optical In. Whatever DAC you pick, I hope you can either hear it first somewhere, or buy it from a place with a reasonable return policy.

 

I can't comment on how the V-Dac compares to the others on the page because I haven't heard any others. It could be the best or worst of any here, just know it's made me happy. Superb imaging, good sound at low levels, still improving with further break-in.

 

Assuming you can't hear it first, maybe we can isolate what Eric and I heard differently.

@Eric: Could you clarify what you meant when you said it sounded "digital"? I interpret that as either harsh, which it isn't on my system, or else on my system I hear it as extremely precise imaging, possibly unnaturally so. At first it was like the early upsampled DVD players that seemed like sharpness was turned up too high. If you meant the latter, the V-Dac has smoothed out for me over time since my first impressions.

 

Right now I really appreciate having a great local audio supplier.

 

 

[Labarum]

The three runners seem to be V-Dac, Beresford 7510 or 7520 and the Dacmagic.

 

Like the previous poster, I have only heard the one I have - a Beresford 7510 - and I too "just know it makes me happy."

 

I chose the Beresford over the others for its facilities - front panel switchable inputs and a volume control. It looks like a little pre-amp, which is how I use it - driving directly my upgraded Quad 405-2. I switch between Squueezebox and Virgin Cable TV box and still have a spare input for a PC.

 

I have told a lie - I have heard a Dacmagic in Richersounds - the experience told me exactly nothing as I was listening to the wrong sort of music on the wrong sort of analogue chain.

 

[Eric51]

fair enough - here is what i likened the V-DAC (on my system) sound to -

 

I have a cheap phillips upsampling DVD player that I occasionally play around with because I can change the upsampling rate from the menu. I have listened to it at various rates and have found that at first I really liked the 24/196. With further listening It was apparent that the sound was precise and not at all irritating but lacking in "realness" and hence not very satisfying or engaging. I think that our ear is tuned to the realness of sound, and that is what makes an audio system "exciting" (one that can recreate the realness of the recording). I have heard reviewers refer to this as the "goose bump effect" I don't think that these subtleties can be measured in terms of distortion etc. I think it has more to do with timber. That is why vinyl is still popular IMO (even though I don't have any - and I probably secretly wish I still did - I had probably 200 albums at one point - topic of a different thread!)

 

hope that helps!

Eric

 

[Cubist]

@Egon:

Thanks for the further info on ATV. I'm starting to see some possibilities there. I certainly do place the VDAc in the short list. I think it sounds like a good starting point, as does Beresford. DACMAgic is in fact now a little over $400 here so that may be out.

 

@Labarum:

I've actually started to look for VDAC and Beresford. Problem is they seem not to be available here (Canada) so I'll have to get one from the US. I don't like that option because whenever I order something from there it ends up costing about double what it listed at by the time I pay tax, duty, brokerage etc. I'm going to continue my search for a Canadian reseller of these, but if I can't find one I may have to just see what DACs I can actually get and choose among those.

 

 

 

[Labarum]

I've actually started to look for VDAC and Beresford. Problem is they seem not to be available here (Canada) so I'll have to get one from the US

 

I would email Stan Beresford direct and see what he suggests about delivery to Canada. His DAC is a small, light box.

 

[Audio_ELF]

The V-DAC (Assuming you're talking about the device I think you're talking about) is made by musical fidelity. In Canada they are distributed by (according tot he website) ...

KEF America

10 Tinber Lane, Marlboro, NJ 07746. USA

Tel: 001 732 683 2356

 

I'm sure they will be able to give you a list of Canadian dealers.

 

Eloise

 

[Egon]

Thanks for clarification, Eric. I now believe that despite system differences, we heard the same thing from the V-Dac; just different tastes. “Digital” is, as you put it, the perfect word to describe the sound from the V-Dac. At first.

 

To use an analogy, choosing between the best high definition television on the market and a film in the theater, I’ll bet you prefer the smooth, lifelike film. I on the other hand appreciate the bright, precise, defined picture on the plasma screen. The V-Dac is ideal for the plasma lover, but not the film lover. Neither is real, just our 2-D perception of reality.

 

The imaging from the V-Dac on my system is incredibly precise; I can tell exactly where a musical instrument is. At first this was essentially pinpoint accuracy, like a pixelated picture. It was amazing from a technology standpoint, but I listened to the technology, not the music. As it’s broken in, those pixels have become fuzzier and begun to overlap, creating a smoother picture. It’s still not vinyl, but improving (still in my first month). At first it was unnatural, like a poorly done upsampled DVD. Now it’s more like the best high definition Blu-Ray signal. Different from film, but not in a bad way if that’s your taste. And Eric Clapton’s guitar gives my goosebumps with the broken-in V-Dac.

 

Cubist- Sounds like you’ve got a short list and a plan, happy listening!

 

 

[Cubist]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I think any of the devices that have been suggested would be a good starting point. I'm just going to see which of them I can actually purchase in Canada and go with that.

 

@Audio_ELF:

Thanks, I spoke to them. They are indeed the Canadian distributor, but have no Canadian dealers selling the V-DAC at present. It seems they can arrange something, but I'm still concerned about it being held up for ages in customs and then me getting charged some outrageous and arbitrary tarrifs by my government. (speaking from experience here) We'll see.

 

@Labarum

I guess he would know eh? I'll send him a message. I would really like to get my hands on one of these (V-DAC or Beresford as starting point ('til I can afford a USBAsync.)

 

 

 

 

 

[barrows]

I would vote for stepping up to the Cambridge DAC magic. Forget about USB at this price range, there will be too much jitter. Run the DAC magic via toslink from the Mac and you will be capable of playing files up to 24/96 resolution. The DAC Magic is a great DAC, and punches well above its price point via the normal inputs, just do not bother with USB.

The advantage of the DAC Magic over other affordable products is the custom digital filters thay have licensed from the Swiss Anagram folks, the sound of these filters (and they are selectable for "tuning" to your tastes) is going to better the stock filters in other affordable DACs. As mentioned in other posts, the DAC Magic can also be upgraded over time, by adding a better power supply to replace the wall wart.

 

[webby]

Barrows,

 

I have a question regarding using optical cable with a mac to a DAC; what is the maximum length of cable I can use without sound quality being affected, if at all? I have around 6m between my mac and my hifi.

 

Also, what 'grade' cable do I need? Does it matter?

 

Thanks

 

[barrows]

I am of the opinion that everything matters. In my experiments I found that true glass optical cables outperformed any of the plastic ones I had to compare them with. And this was with realatively affordable glass optical cables (I have one called "Sonicwave" which I suspect is exactly the same cable Audioquest sells for lots of money, I have a strong suspicion that both these cables come from the same manufacturer). That said, there are many different cables out there, and there may also be good plastic ones.

I have not tried any long cables, but the audiophile in me believes that long runs would degrade performance somewhat.

 

[Cubist]

I am starting to really miss listening to music. This DAC piece needs to get done, so I'm adjusting my focus from 'what would be best?' to 'what represents the best value among currently available options?'

 

@barrows:

Despite the fact that it comes in a bit over the $400 mark I am putting it under consideration on the strength of the generally high regard in which it is held and per your comments.

 

The options listed below are estimates of what it would cost ($Canadian) to bring the DAC in the door. Some are new and some are in the used market. Cabling not included here.

 

New Beresford TC 7520 (from distributor web site)

Price is estimated based on list of USD 249 and the fact that most things I buy from the US end up costing nearly 2x list in CAD by the time I get them in the door.

$450

 

New Cambridge Audio DACMagic (local shop)

$542

 

"New" Musical Fidelity V-DAC (classified add, private)

This comes with the UK power supply. MF web site says use only theirs, however I don't see why any good quality 12V 500mA power supply would not work. Does anyone see a problem with this?)

$365

 

Musical fidelity X Dac V-3 (classified ad, private)

$530

 

PS Audio Ultralink Two (classified ad, private)

$500

 

"New" Musiland MD-10 DAC with USB (classified ad, private)

$325

 

You comments are, as ever, most welcome.

 

[webby]

Would the Beresford be cheaper shipped to a US address? Do you know anyone in the states? Sorry, just thinking....

 

[Egon]

You are correct that any power supply with the correct adapter should work for the V-Dac. There's a forum elsewhere discussing swapping out the V-Dac PSU, which they feel is a weakness on it (underpowered). The bottom line was it must be 12V and have the correct end (small, ~1.1-1.3mm) to plug into the V-Dac, and deliver 500mA or more. I've personally used mine with a $15 switching power supply with the many end adapters that you can get at any hardware store, 12V and 1000mA current, with no issue and possibly even better sound.

 

[Cubist]

Also to be added to the list of possibilities:

 

Firestone FooBar (local dealer)

$179

 

Firestone Spitfire (local dealer)

$339

 

@Webby

Well I could get it delivered to the UPS store, but then I still need to cross the border with it, and I can no longer get into that country without dropping another $85 on a passport! It's unfortuante, becuase it sounds like it would be a very cost-effective device for me.

 

@Egon

Thanks for the advice I'll seek out that thread.

 

 

 

 

 

[mr macgee]

Look into the Valab DAC $200 shipped, it's very well reviewed.

 

Do a google search, it's extremely popular on other forums, one thread with almost 100 pages & 1,400 comments on it.

There's a whole cult following for the Valab and a bunch trying to hot rod it out. A lot of people in the industry have been recommending it. There a new revision now for sale.

 

Here a link of a thread here on CA, read through and down the posts:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/First-Post-Cheapish-DAC

 

 

[Cubist]

@mr macgee:

Thanks for yet another compelling option. (you guys killing me) It's interesting (bewildering) that there seem to be polar opposite views reperesented in the CA thread. I will check out the Head-Fi one too. Speaking of gear I'm scared to import here, I note you have the Devilsound in what I guess is your video rig (not sure) How do you like it?

 

[mr macgee]

I guess that's the beauty of forums.

 

Good sound/music is very subjective, there's many different opinions. Just read up, do your homework, take everything with a grain of salt and go with what you like and what makes sense to you.

 

I use to be heavily involved in audiophile personally and professionally. I now just want to come home, turn on the stereo and listen to music. Not fuss over the gear and not have it take over my rooms. I would like to keep it simple and with a small footprint while still have very good music.

 

I have the Devilsound ordered and should arrive in a day or two. If you check my other post on this site you'll read why I went with it. It's been well reviewed by good reviewers and it's a very slick, very low foot print and a simple setup, made with good materials and it all being one piece, cables and all. When you start adding up all the cost for the audio quality cables (if you believe in such things, I do to a degree), power cord and shipping. The Devilsound is very competitively priced.

 

I have two another house and a office with sound, I like the idea that of taking my Apple laptop with my library and Devilsound and easily travel with it, connect it to any stereo and have audiophile quality sound but it will mostly stay at my house. I'm really looking for a small footprint. It is for music as well as video.

 

I'll audition it after break in and compare it to my other DAC's and post the results.

 

Not sure where your located but the Valab has been safe to ship to the States. If you look at the thousands of posts, it's obviously making it to them OK but for the price ($200 incl.. ship.) and high recommendations, it seems worth it, I have ordered many things on eBay from that region without any problems. I'm buying a Valab and will compare. For the price, unusually highly interest and recommendations it's make it worth to try.

 

Hope this helps. Cheers,

 

[Cubist]

@mr macgee:

It's been very educational, this post, and I appreciate all the feedback. To be quite honest I have no problem at all buying from a reputable e-bay store in Taipei. My hesitation relates to the x factor introduced by my own government. They seem to delight in delaying, taxing, and assessing arbitrary tariffs and brokerage fees on anything I try to import. I may indeed go for the Valab NOS DAC, but not before getting something a cheap and locally available while I wait for customs to clear it.

 

 

 

 

[icebreaker]

6M is the max but the shorter the better. As few turns as possible and I prefer glass toslink