What is the next logical upgrade?

[IronHide75]

Hi All,

 

Been lurking here for a 1/2 year or so and finally decided to sign up!

 

I wanted to get some opinions on what I should upgrade next in my setup. I have a hodge-podge budget system made up of used and new equipment. It sounds very good for a variety of music (to me), but I feel pop and rock songs could use a little more punch and snap. I don't want to add a subwoofer, as my "listening room" is quite small and already full.

 

Basically, I use my system for streaming Spotify and/or MOG and hope to rip my CD albums to FLAC and play them from a NAS in the near future.

 

Anyways, here's what I have:

 

- Old Sony Pentium 4 Laptop running XP (will be replaced soon enough with "newer" used laptop, so don't need a recommendation on this)

- Musical Fidelity V-DAC II w/ Pyramid PS4KX 3 Amp Power Supply

- Adcom GTP-400 preamplifier

- Sonance Sonamp 260 amplifier

- BIC DV62si bookshelf speakers (w/ Ed Frias crossover mod)

- Monoprice interconnects, speaker cables, and USB cable

 

I originally used a Chinese t-amp (Topping TP20 mkii), but a friend gave me the Sonamp. I found the Sonamp had much better bass, soundstage, and separation.

 

I'm not looking to spend more than $300 on my next upgrade if this is possible.

 

I appreciate any help you folks can give. Thanks!

[mayhem13]

IMO the weakest link in your system may be the most costly to upgrade and yet $ for $ will offer the highest performance gains......the speakers. While your space is small and probobly provides a signifiacnt amount of cabin gain for the lowest frequencies, midbass is probobly the area you are lacking, and not for the reasons you might suppose. More than likely, you have a deep null somewhere in the 60-100hz range making pop and rock music subdued with not enough attack from drum hits or dynamics for bass guitar or synth bass.

 

In this area, a single 6.5" midwoofer simply can't move enough air to get the job done so either a larger midwoofer or multiples as in a floor stander is in order. A well done 3 way would be better, but all are pricey options and even within the pre owned market are a bit out of your budget. To compound matters, even the more robust speaker system still may exhibit a lean midbass as nulls are often a product of placement and room interaction, an area where a subwoofer really comes in handy as placement is flexible, enough so to allow you to mitigate or even eliminate any LF nulls.

 

Enjoy your quest and try not to sweat the small signal stuff! When painting, deal with the walls first, and paint the trim afterwards.

[bluesman]

IMO the weakest link in your system may be the most costly to upgrade and yet $ for $ will offer the highest performance gains......the speakers.

 

I agree completely with this, with one exception I'll cite below. The BICs are excellent value for general use, but they're simply not (and not intended to be) audiophile components. There are several excellent speakers at under $300/pair (e.g. Tannoy Mercury, PSB Alpha B1, Emotiva XRM-6.1). Go listen to a few and I think you'll be inspired.

 

In this area, a single 6.5" midwoofer simply can't move enough air to get the job done so either a larger midwoofer or multiples as in a floor stander is in order.

 

Having loved my Rogers LS3/5as for 37 years, and being quite happy with their bass output and quality in my 10x18x8 listening room (currently driven by a 35 WPC PrimaLuna Prologue 5 but great with many tube and SS amps before that one), I can't agree that you need bigger drivers. I did use a Yamaha servo-powered 12" sub for years along with SS power amps - but once I figured out speaker placement and achieved the tightest, cleanest bass I could, I removed the sub. With the Prima Luna's great low end, I'm happier with great bass from 40 up than I was with bass that went to 20 but lacked the quality of the main systems (and was marred by some crossover effects). Even though the $300 Tannoys, PSBs etc aren't up there with Rogers and other $2k+ systems, I'd rather have the sonic quality of speakers like the Tannoys than the greater sonic compromises of larger speakers in the same price range. If you can stretch the budget a little bit, the Emotiva XRT-5.2 towers are on sale for about $500/pair right now - these are about the lowest priced floor-standers I've heard with which I could happily live.

 

Now for the caveat: as I recall, the Sonamp 260 was designed to drive 2 channels in a home theater system - it, too, is not an audiophile product. I seem to recall that they were originally marketed to drive subwoofers and had no controls except a screwdriver-adjustable volume pot. I never heard one, so I can't comment on their sonic qualities - but I suspect there's a lot to be gained from moving to something like a NAD 316 (which, for under $400, gives you 40 WPC of excellent sound along with I/O flexibility).

 

A great small speaker like the Tannoy may reveal flaws in your amp (e.g. harshness) hidden by the BICs. And a great little amp like the NAD may not reveal its full benefit through the BICs. So the important news is that there are wonderful speakers and amps out there for under $400 (for an amp or a pair of speakers) - but deciding which to upgrade first is not an easy choice. If you could try speakers with your amp and amps with your speakers at home, you'd be well advised to do so (even if it means ordering from a web dealer with the intent to return one or the other). Good luck - the hunt is half the fun!

[mayhem13]

I can absolutely say that your Rogers were incapable of usefull content below 50hz and if not high passed, the small midwoofer has no suspension control below the tuning freq (Fc). THe magic of the Rogers is in its BBC, a product of a very well designed crossover and excellent voicing.

 

I'm of a different school of thought.....anything but 20hz-20khz response is unacceptable. To call one's self an 'audiophile' or other monikers and accept anything less that full spectrum response just seems counter to the entire idea. Most middle aged folks can clearly hear and enjoy content below 30hz yet the same group if tested for 15khz and up perception mostly fail.....and yet enthusiasts and mfgrs tout and publish rubbish responses above 20khz??.......

 

As I mentioned earlier, LF content is derived from displacement through either cone surface area or linear excursion.....of which the Rogers and similiar speakers have neither. That's not to say they are bad at what they do......contrary......just don't ask too much of them.

[bluesman]

anything but 20hz-20khz response is unacceptable

 

The problem with this approach for me is the difficulty of achieving truly clean, tight, balanced and neutral sound across the full audio frequency spectrum at reasonable (to me) cost in a package I (and my wife...) can live with happily in our space. I achieved this a few times in my life, most notably with Infinity Reference Standards driven by a Hafler 500 on the bottom and a Citation II or a Marantz 8b on top. Sadly, when we could afford furniture once I finished my residency, my wife decided she'd rather have a nice house than big speakers.

 

I'd rather have the quality across an abbreviated spectrum than a wide spectrum with lesser quality. I love the way music sounds through my Rogers and would rather have this than an extra octave at the bottom (in which there's little fundamental energy in most music anyway - low E on a string bass is 41.2 Hz, and that's only down 3 db on the Rogers with careful corner placement). And my audiogram is textbook normal. Most inexpensive "full range" speakers sound bad to me, and the best I've heard are still compromises I find more unpleasant than a rolled-off bottom octave.

 

To each his own - it's one of the beauties of life!

[Jeff In San Diego]

If your listening room is quite small then I think some room treatments to get rid of first reflections might be just the ticket. Unlike bass traps and other types of room treatments, absorption strategically located to dampen mid and high freqs bouncing off nearby walls and back to listening chair can be quite small and inexpensive.

 

Maybe not as "sexy" of an upgrade as a new pair of speakers...but much less expensive.

[mayhem13]

I can accept that, and I have no doubt you've tried to work within your space to flatten your bass response but something to consider......given the very wide band operation of your Rogers' midwoofer, in order for them to extend as low as they do, that cone needs to move quite a bit linearly. As much as you enjoy your smooth top end, there's vast room for improvement in the critical midrange by eliminating the need for the midwoofer to extend below say 400hz. As if the system became a three way, where below the high pass,,the Rogers would still behave just like the same point source speaker they are now for the lower midbass and bass radiates in an omni pattern......so no change to imaging or spacial qualities of any kind, just an improved top end where the small midwoofer doesn't have to move in a linear fashion. The use of stereo subs in proximity to your Rogers using DSP for crossover and PeQ functions is pretty simple and inexpensive to accomplish. Instead of just accepting your current response, I would suggest that you at least look into it.

[Guidof]

I vote for absorption at the first reflection points as potentially the most effective improvement for the least investment.

 

Best luck!

 

Guido F.

[IronHide75]

...midbass is probobly the area you are lacking, and not for the reasons you might suppose. More than likely, you have a deep null somewhere in the 60-100hz range making pop and rock music subdued with not enough attack from drum hits or dynamics for bass guitar or synth bass.

 

Hi mayhem13, I think you may be on to something with the midbass. After reading your response, I tried playing a bunch of songs that have good midbass (I Got You - James Brown, Billie Jean - Michael Jackson), and my system definitely seemed lacking in that area. It's not that the songs didn't sound good, but I could tell the bassline could use a little more "umph."

 

I don't think a subwoofer or a three-way is an option at this point, though. I can't go for floorstanders, either, as we have a cat who will probably shred the grill covers!

 

Will keep this piece of info in mind. Thanks!

[IronHide75]

I agree completely with this, with one exception I'll cite below. The BICs are excellent value for general use, but they're simply not (and not intended to be) audiophile components. There are several excellent speakers at under $300/pair (e.g. Tannoy Mercury, PSB Alpha B1, Emotiva XRM-6.1). Go listen to a few and I think you'll be inspired.

 

 

Thank you, bluesman. You've provided me some food for thought. I think it'll be worth my time to go to a local shop and audition some equipment. Our hifi shops tend to have exotic, high-end and high-priced stuff, but it couldn't hurt to ask about some of the equipment you've suggested and give them my spending range.

 

And you're right about the Sonamp. Based on what I could find on google, the Sonamp does seem to be more of a home theater amp than an audiophile amp. And yes, all it has is those screw R/F volume controls. That's why I ended up getting the Adcom preamp.

[IronHide75]

Hi everyone, I'd definitely like to give room treatment a try. It's got to aesthetically pleasing to my wife, though =)

 

My "listening room," which also doubles as my computer room, measures about 12 X 7 and has very thin wooden walls.

 

I have noticed that my left speaker, which has a bookshelf next to it, consistently sounds better than my right speaker. I played around with my balance knob last night and confirmed the observation. I'm guessing that's because the bookshelf is preventing sound reflection?

 

What might I try hanging next to my right speaker to get a similar effect?

[mayhem13]

It's important that both symmetric first reflection points be equal......in both distance and makeup.

[bluesman]

It's got to aesthetically pleasing to my wife, though =)

 

I've learned a few things from 40 years of marital bliss (a very few things, according to my wife). There's only one room treatment found to be universally acceptable by wives.....

 

I managed to go from

to

with neither anesthesia nor a net (web images - that's are not my house). Love is not only blind, it's apparently also hearing-impaired.....

 

Enjoy!!

 

David

[IronHide75]

It's important that both symmetric first reflection points be equal......in both distance and makeup.

 

I didn't think it would be possible, but I'll be getting a matching bookshelf next to my right speaker. Will let you guys know the results!