I did'nt care for the sound of a 24bit/192 Download of the Hans Schmitt Isserstedt/Beethoven 9th so I reduced the bit depth to 16bits

[Jud]

Alex -

 

Your reply is not careful to distinguish between three situations which to me are quite distinct:

 

- A CD and a rip. There are good reasons these can and almost certainly will sound different from each other.

 

- Rips to two different lossless formats, one compressed and the other uncompressed. Again, there are reasons these can sound different, for some of the same reasons different software players can sound different.

 

- Two bit-identical rips to the same lossless format, played back by the same chain. Here I think it is fair to say that you feel there can be sonic differences, but have not determined what would cause it. I don't know what the mechanism would be either, and am not aware of any ripping software that claims to make a repeatable difference in this situation. Are you?

[sandyk]

Jud

I deliberately refrained from going into detail here, as it is in my opinion a waste of time to do so, and John said that we should agree to disagree.

I was simply pointing out that not everybody agrees with what John has stated as fact, and that a qualified E.E. also clearly heard the differences between both of the Yello tracks despite them having identical checksums, and using the same playback chain.It is now up to technically qualified people whether or not they want to pursue these now confirmed differences from many other people, including several C.A. members,Martin Colloms and 2 Professors of Music. One is from the U.K. and the other from the U.S.A.

Regards

Alex

[Jud]

Jud

I deliberately refrained from going into detail here, as it is in my opinion a waste of time to do so, and John said that we should agree to disagree.

I was simply pointing out that not everybody agrees with what John has stated as fact, and that a qualified E.E. also clearly heard the differences between both of the Yello tracks despite them having identical checksums, and using the same playback chain.It is now up to technically qualified people whether or not they want to pursue these now confirmed differences from many other people, including several C.A. members,Martin Colloms and 2 Professors of Music. One is from the U.K. and the other from the U.S.A.

Regards

Alex

 

Hi, Alex. Yes, the above is the thing on which it seems to me you and John have agreed to disagree.

 

I doubt John would maintain that a CD must sound identical to a rip, though of course he can speak for himself on that.

 

Whether John thinks different software players can sound different when playing bit-identical material without sample rate conversion or DSP, I don't know. I think they can and do.

[sandyk]

Whether John thinks different software players can sound different when playing bit-identical material without sample rate conversion or DSP, I don't know. I think they can and do.

Hi Jud

Of course they sound different, although I don't know about them all being bit perfect, which I personally believe is an over rated concept.With Windows for example, some such as Power DVD, SF9's playback, Creative Media Source Player etc., all go through the dreaded Microsoft Mixer.Bypassing that gives an improvement in S/N ratio.

Others may use Asio4all, and others use pure Asio, where the files are played directly from System Memory with the Windows Mixer bypassed.There is a general consensus that Asio4all does not sound as good as pure Asio. Then there are different versions of that, that don't give exactly the same SQ results.For example, many will agree that Foobar 2K using it's own Asio doesn't sound as good as cPlay using Asus Xonar soundcard's Asio. Whether or not it's due to the different versions of Asio is another story.It may also involve software "Jitter", that the designer of cPlay tries to minimise.Others will prefer XXHE or jPlay.There are marked variations with how they sound with the same material. Some people even prefer the sound of a little added Jitter !!!

Regards

Alex

[Nocompression]

Sorry, but I believe you're laboring under a misconception. Yes, there are various programs that can make sure in a couple of different ways that a rip is bit for bit accurate. In the vast majority of cases these are bit-identical to iTunes rips. A rip that drops bits will result in gross errors, sounding like "ticks," not playback of lower sonic quality. The sorts of errors that result in lower sound quality - e.g., timing errors (jitter) - are not something any ripping software I'm aware of claims to affect.

 

Sound quality differences may well occur with playback software, but rips will either get the bits or not, and if they don't, what results will not be music.

 

You may very well be right about much of the perceived differences in rip quality my be due the upgrades I've made to my playback system . I had'nt considered that , but on the other hand have you actually tried some of this software ?

 

I seem to recall many of my upgrades were made after I changed the ripping techniques I was using. When I first started using EAC I re-ripped quite a few of the same discs I had ripped using iTunes as my ripper . I did this for a few weeks, until one day I said to myself " This is nuts, I know what works for me" It was'nt iTunes ! Does iTunes work better on Mac than PC ? (& the funny thing is I don't think EAC "works" nearly as well for me a dBPa does!)

 

Shhh!, let's not let too many people that "I am laboring under a misconception" as I plan to continue to follow the "path of the unenlightened" as long as my results continue to be this enjoyable . Alright, now Chris can move my status back to newbie for not conforming to the suggestions made by my more learned brethren here !

[Jud]

You may very well be right about much of the perceived differences in rip quality my be due the upgrades I've made to my playback system . I had'nt considered that , but on the other hand have you actually tried some of this software ?

 

Yep. :-) Many different ones, on four different operating systems. I've settled on XLD on Mac, with which like dbPowerAmp you can check that the rip is bit perfect.

 

I seem to recall many of my upgrades were made after I changed the ripping techniques I was using. When I first started using EAC I re-ripped quite a few of the same discs I had ripped using iTunes as my ripper . I did this for a few weeks, until one day I said to myself " This is nuts, I know what works for me" It was'nt iTunes ! Does iTunes work better on Mac than PC ? (& the funny thing is I don't think EAC "works" nearly as well for me a dBPa does!)

 

 

About the same, I think. Most of the time it rips perfectly well. But just a couple of rips with dropouts and having to re-rip is all it took to persuade me that it was overall easier and less aggravating to make sure it was done right the first time, which you can with the rippers you and I use.

 

Shhh!, let's not let too many people that "I am laboring under a misconception" as I plan to continue to follow the "path of the unenlightened" as long as my results continue to be this enjoyable . Alright, now Chris can move my status back to newbie for not conforming to the suggestions made by my more learned brethren here !

 

Of course it's up to you. Just wanted to let you know that what you're hearing (sound quality improvements) is not the characteristic audible evidence of bit perfect rips vs. rips with errors. Rips with errors will give you audible dropouts, usually a lightning-fast dropout with a "tick" sound. Sound quality improvements can come from things like differences in jitter and various other characteristics of playback hardware and software, but I haven't read any claims that ripping software can provide sound quality improvements, just a lack of audible dropouts.

 

This isn't out of some desire on my part to appear learned, it's to suggest paths you might look at for better sound. If you'd like to pursue better sound through ripping software and come up with what seems to you like a good repeatable demonstration, then let us all know, because we're always looking for ways to improve our sound.