The Great Cable and Interconnect Swindle: An Etiology

[sandyk]

Prufrock

Why would anybody other than a pure cable agnostic want to read a blog by some newbie, who starts such provocative ,and in the main incorrect, thread titles as this one? You have just ruled yourself out as providing any worthwhile impartial resources on this subject.

 

SandyK

[sandyk]

"Although I don't believe that there would be a mother around who say that this is altogether "healthy" activity. I am sure Dame Edna would agree. "

 

I don't believe that there would be a mother around who would say that a young married man flirting with a horny single female (? ) on line would be an altogether "healthy" activity either. I feel sure that Barry Humphreys would agree too. ( evil grin)

It could be much safer playing with cables ?

[sandyk]

"Once again I think the Dame would agree that there is a certain amount of fixation at the anal stage going on. "

 

I think the Dame may be too busy trying to lose weight with Jenny Craig, than worrying about potty training and other things anal. (wink!)

[sandyk]

"Yes, amplifier oscillation can be a problem with badly designed amplifiers, and zobel networks are widely used on transmission systems, but properly designed amps should not rely on external components (cables) to take care of that.- Julf "

I agree with that in general, however a Zobel network is designed to work optimally with a selected loudspeaker impedance.

A few amplifiers use external Zobel networks IF required.Perhaps the manufacturers of the more expensive amplifiers should provide a way for the consumer to optimise the Zobel network to suit the speakers being used ?

 

"Originally Posted by Paul.Raulerson

I reckon for any such test to have any meaning, the cables need to be shipped around to each tester, along with the test files on a USB stick, and played on the tester's own systems."

 

I agree with Paul, and that is what I do these days wherever possible. Currently I have a Corsair Voyager GT being passed around the European members of another forum.

Julf refuses to accept the possibility of file degradation due to uploading and downloading etc. despite quite a few subjective reports to the contrary.Award winning Recording Engineer Cookie Marenco even provides her DSD downloads as Uncompressed Zips to reduce file degradation.Barry Diament even refuses to provide Lossless DLs to avoid file degradation,

and provides his high resolution material on DVD's burned to order with the user's preferred Non Lossless format.

 

Alex

[sandyk]

Julf

The silly superstition here is the inability of most EEs to accept that there is more to hearing than sine wave hearing tests. The rise time of the waveform allows older people to still appreciate high res material, which is something you appear unable to do.Yet EEs like yourself.still base their designs around this outdated information.

I was talking about Paul's suggestion of passing around a USB memory stick.

Alex

[sandyk]

"Some loudspeakers have built-in Zobel networks in their crossovers. I have not seen fancy loudspeaker cables come in "4 ohms" and "8 ohms" versions - wouldn't that be the logical thing if they really are intended to work as matched impedance transmission lines?"

 

Audio Power Amplifier Design Handbook 5th edition by Douglas Self on pages 227 and 228, gives further information about Zobel Networks as NORMALLY fitted INSIDE amplifiers.

[sandyk]

"OK, so your objection to the test is that downloading the files will change their sound, while transferring them on an USB stick won't? "

As per what Cookie Marenco has found , the files on the USB memory stick would be best saved to it as Uncompressed Zips.

Yes, there is still a smalll degradation, but not as bad as going through several servers and perhaps 100s of optical repeaters.

Not that I expect you to accept any of this ! Paul is simply suggesting a method that should ensure that everybody receives an identical copy of the comparison material.Even if you refuse to accept any reasons for differences, surely that method should be acceptable ?

[sandyk]

"At this point I am not suggesting trying to find out how and why the audible differences happen, but simply see if there are any audible differences. I would appreciate your views on why a series of ABX tests on hi-res files recorded from the output of the DAC on a decent system, but using different USB cables, wouldn't show if there are audible differences or not. "

 

Just a reminder that Mark Powell took that a step further when he tried batteries instead of USB power.

Perhaps a good choice of cables would be a normal generic type, and an upmarket cable where the power and data are in separate cables until the sockets ?

[sandyk]

"And as operating systems only copy the bits, wouldn't your audible differences disappear just copying the file from one disk to another? "

 

 

Not according to Martin Colloms or the authors of the TAS Report on .flac vs. .wav.

 

Despite what you may wish to believe, I am not the only C.A. member who hears similar to the TAS report either.

 

Is it so hard to compromise so that both Objective and Subjective camps sides are happy ?

 

A more in depth test may even involve an option where a SOtM USB device is used.

According to some, that shouldn't make a difference either !

 

Or would you prefer to see a quick result that is open to criticism because the Objective side has set the rules ?

[sandyk]

Julf

I am not getting into the other area again. Believe what you want.

On the subject of older people still being able to hear these things that I refer to, perhaps the attached link may be of interest ? Israel is a >80 year old ex U.S. A Professor of Music. He details differences he hears with a recabled headphone using Cardas cable. According to presently accepted hearing dogma, and according to you guys, what he reports should be impossible, shouldn't it ?

 

Rock Grotto Audio Forum - For Headphones - Headphone Amps - Amplifiers - X-Can V2 - Musical Fidelity - headphone Discussion - Amplifier Discussion - DIY - Amplifier Kits - Projects - SCHA - Sennheiser - Beyer - Grado - Audio Technica - Headphone amp ( reply 118)

I believe that the use of the USB stick as Paul has suggested, has the best chance of obtaining meaninful results provided that the equipment used to generate these differences is suiutable.

[sandyk]

Prufrock

I suggest that you use the Search facility, as if I go there again, Chris may have my scrotum for a " Beanie"!!!

If you are genuinely interested, there is a brief write up at the attached link. There is also a brief discussion about the use of cat6 vs, cat 5e cables and other items such as Linear PSU vs. SMPS for the Naim Unitiserve..

Audio Networking: A potpourri of computer network audio findings, including updates on the Naim UnitiServe, gigabit switches, CAT 5/6 cable and ripping issues. Review By Martin Colloms

[sandyk]

"Israel is a >80 year old ex U.S. A Professor of Music. He details differences he hears with a recabled headphone using Cardas cable.

According to presently accepted hearing dogma, and according to you guys, what he reports should be impossible, shouldn't it ?

 

Uh, why? And what does this have to do with anything?"

 

I believe that this report about differences between headphone cables fits in with the title of this thread.

"The Great Cable and Interconnect Swindle: An Etiology"

Not only is he reporting things that present hearing dogma would suggest is impossible due to sharp hearing decline with age, but he reports hearing differences between 6' long headphone cables that Dennis and others seem to believe is not possible on technical grounds.

[sandyk]

"So you consider one person reporting subjectively hearing a difference objective proof that there are real, audible differences? "

No, I am simply pointing out that there are other highly trained people that can hear these things, and that people like yourself shouldn't be so dismissive of these reports based on present technical knowledge.

Now some of you you even want a thread of your own where the Objective side can discuss these things free of annoying replies from the other side.

You can just about bet your left one, that if the subjective side tried to do the same ,it would be met with howls of protests and extremely sarcastic replies, as is almost always the case where there are any kinds of subjective reports,no matter what the subject, and the thread would end up getting locked by Admin. This is a regular occurrence on MANY different forums.

[sandyk]

"I wouldn't bet on that one - there has been several cases on CA where the OP has asked for purely subjective impressions and no technical discussion, and in general that wish has been respected. "

 

And far, far more, where the request of the OP has been completely ignored.

 

Anyway, I hope that something worthwhile comes out of this latest initiative with files created using different USB cables.

Goodnight from Sydney Au.

[sandyk]

"It's easier to fool people than than to convince them that they have been fooled"

 

 

Don't they have repeats of "Candid Camera" on TV where you live ?

[sandyk]

"and, heaven forbid, it is also time to plan an IC opamp based output stage (sacrilige) for my DAC to satisfy my curiosity... "

 

Metal can, or DIP8, or SOIC ? They all sound the same , don't they ? (grin)

[sandyk]

"HaHaHa... It is just a TPA IVYIII, so OPA1632s, they only come SOIC. I generally prefer discrete circuits, but I have heard other components using these parts and they sound really good for an IC, plus they have super specs, which everyone reading here will appreciate, and they have more current drive capability, which may give them an advantage driving the input stage of my Pass amp directly... "

 

Hi Barrows

Yes, current drive capability is the key here. It reduces the effects of those "impossible" interconnect cable differences.(grin)

For those who believe that the same chip in different encapsulations MUST sound the same, the replies by Mark (Audioman 54) who was part of the N.S. team before being made redundant, may be of interest. YES, the metal can LM4562HA/LME49720HA etc. do sound better than the DIP8 versions. The metal can versions run surprisingly warm compared with the DIP 8 versions . Perhaps better thermal management is part of the reason why they sound better?

Regards

Alex

 

National opamp inflation - diyAudio

[sandyk]

ipeverywhere

Nobody has disputed at any stage, that the actual binary contents of the files are different,when checked using SHA256 or whatever.

[sandyk]

ipeverywhere

In post 94 in this thread there is a link to a copy of an article from HiFi Critic magazine by Martin Colloms.

I got so fed up with the same endless arguments, many of them dripping with sarcasm, from some of the EE and software brigades, here in C.A. , in Rock Grotto and DIYAudio, that I took the opportunity of contacting C.A. member Martin Colloms, who is arguably one of the most respected technical writers , reviewers , and HiFi magazine editors with >30 years experience. He is also a Chartered Engineer, author of several books and a loudspeaker designer, in addition to being an Acoustic Consultant. I uploaded several sets of comparison .wav files for Martin that had identical checksums. Martin heard the same differences that I reported hearing ,and organised 6 separate listening session with different trusted listeners using Blind A/B/A 3 minute sessions . All sessions came back with with positive results, and all reported hearing similar differences with the same .wav files. In the Absolute Sound earlier this year there was a 2 part report about .wav vs. .flac. They also reported that the .flac file derived from the original .wav file did not sound as good as the original .wav file. Furthermore they stated that the resulting .flac file, after being reconverted to .wav again did NOT sound as good as the original .wav file despite identical binary content.

HFC Forum also has a couple of reports by Martin Colloms about the listening sessions that were not included in the final published article.

Alex

[sandyk]

Just to lighten the mood, and upset somebody else for a change. (All in good fun. )

 

An Engineer in Hell

 

 

An engineer dies and reports to the pearly gates. St. Peter checks his dossier and says, "Ah, you're an engineer -- you're in the wrong place." So the engineer reports to the gates of hell and is let in. Pretty soon, the engineer gets dissatisfied with the level of comfort in hell, and starts designing and building improvements. After a while, they've got air conditioning and flush toilets and escalators, and the engineer is a pretty popular guy.

 

One day God calls Satan up on the telephone and says with a sneer, "So, how's it going down there in hell?" Satan reply’s, "Hey, things are going great. We've got air conditioning and flush toilets and escalators, and there's no telling what this engineer is going to come up with next."

 

God replies, "What??? You've got an engineer? That's a mistake -- he should never have gotten down there; send him up here." Satan says, "No way. I like having an engineer on the staff, and I'm keeping him." God says, "Send him back up here or I'll sue." Satan laughs and answers, "Yeah, right. And just where are YOU going to get a lawyer?" they are all down here.

[sandyk]

"sandyk,

 

How about starting a thread on 'file degradation' ? I'd like to say a few (respectful) things about it, but not 'off topic' "

Dave

Sorry, but there is more than enough stuff posted here about that already.As I said a while back in the thread, I sent some comparison files to Martin Colloms to check out. I suspect that the listening equipment that he has access to would be far superior to what most C.A. members have.If people refuse to accept what he and his listening team have reported, the authors of the TAS report have said, and a few highly respected Recording Engineers report, as well as several other regular posters still keep saying, especially about .flac vs. wav, then that is their prerogative. I would be interested to know why so many people like their SOtM cards when the binary information remains unchanged.( I don't doubt for a moment that they may result in audible improvements, because I concentrate mainly on the PSU area too.)

Regards

Alex

[sandyk]

Hi Dennis

Looks like Demian's post must have rattled you a little ? (grin)

That is an uncharacteristic outburst coming from you.Don't worry, we still all love you though.(wink!)

Kind Regards

Alex

P.S.

Apart from the conclusions you draw on some occasions, I must say that I agree with many things you say both here, and in your Blog. FTR, I don't own any very expensive cables either. I feel that in some cases they are being used to try and correct for minor technical deficiencies elsewhere. However, I certainly wouldn't rule out the possibility that some designs may be slightly different sounding to others. Perhaps you need to redo those comparison files with a better A/D converter ?

[sandyk]

"I am frustrated that so many seem intent on holding onto the small part of the elephant they have their hands on. I think much more could be accomplished if that weren't the case. "

Dennis

I hope you aren't suggesting that some of us are holding on to that thing that get's shorter with age ? (grin)

Kind Regards

Alex

[sandyk]

Most of the above can be said of cables also.

 

 

 

 

 

With power cords (for example), it is much more counter-intuitive to suspect that there are going to be audible differences... Power cords? Bad example!

 

I thought you were staying away from cable debates (for mental health reasons)? Probably not a bad idea actually.

 

 

SOMEBODY obviously has clear feelings about the improvements resulting from the use of high quality power cables. (grin.)

 

 

The Computer Audiophile's Album: Listening Room

[sandyk]

The first from McIntosh on speaker wire being wire,

 

 

 

 

Originally Posted by McIntosh Labs

 

I credit the success of the speaker wire industry to their expert sales and marketing ability. However, it is my experience that ordinary copper wire, as long as it's heavy enough, is just as good as name brands.

 

 

With longer speaker cables, there may be a clear advantage to not only having heavy duty copper wire protected as far as possible from future oxidisation, but also using methods to reduce mainly the overall capacitance of the cables ?

 

Alex