EMI Beethoven,Triple Concerto, comments?

[wdw]

Hello All,

Anyone downloaded the 24/96 EMI remaster of the Triple Concerto? Always loved this piece and am tempted to buy but hoping someone may have and could offer their comments on the sonics.

Happy Listening,

WDW

[Kenneth Horne]

Not of much help to you - I have the SACD and the Triple Concerto sounds very very good.

 

At the moment the only high resolution alternative is LSO Live's as part of Bernard Haitink's Beethoven symphony survey which has a more modern approach to the performance, leaner textures and so on. However, good as the London soloists are, the combination of Oistrakh, Rostropovich and Richter is irresistible.

[JonP]

I have not downloaded the 24/96 version but both the Great Performances CD version and the Hi-Q vinyl version both end in a significant amount of overload distortion towards the end of the last movement. It is as if the enigneers let the recording levels go well and truly into the red and let the meters hit the bump stops. This really detracts from the enjoyment as far as I am concerned, especially as there are no real problems in either of the first two movements. My fear is that since I have heard it on both CD and audiophile vinyl formats, then it probably exists on the master tapes. And my guess is the existing CD release of it is probably a down-sampled and dithered version of the high res version, in which case the distortion will obviously still be there.

[Kenneth Horne]

And my guess is the existing CD release of it is probably a down-sampled and dithered version of the high res version, in which case the distortion will obviously still be there.

 

I'll have to have another listen to the last movement on the SACD. However, the mastering was done in 2011, brand new for the Japanese SACD release, and so different from the GROC, Karajan Edition etc.

 

In fact, all the EMI SACDs are completely new and fresh re-masterings which started with all the Furtwangler recordings -

 

[JonP]

I'll have to have another listen to the last movement on the SACD. However, the mastering was done in 2011, brand new for the Japanese SACD release, and so different from the GROC, Karajan Edition etc.

 

In fact, all the EMI SACDs are completely new and fresh re-masterings which started with all the Furtwangler recordings -

 

 

Hi Kenneth,

 

On the CD version (and the Hi-Q vinyl which was a remastering from 2011), it really hardens up at the end of the final movement. Infact when I bought the vinyl I thought there was a problem with the pressing...until I heard the CD version which had the same problem. It's like the massed fortes at the end of the movement are hitting a brick wall limiter, which is odd because the recorded level isnt any higher than the rest of the piece and the first movement (which gets just as loud in parts) is perfectly fine. Not only does it get badly compressed, but it loses the air (or what air there is) at the top end as well. Again, this happens on both formats. Maybe the tape heads were dirty by the end of the last movement...

 

It would be interesting to know if a different source is used, but to my ears, at least the CD versions and the vinyl versions used the same source, though the CD version has inferior sound and shows evidence of some sort of processing that is not apparent in the vinyl. Whatever the case, the vinyl version claims to be remastered from the original master tapes and was done at Abbey Road last year. And as I say, the hard limiting effect is exactly the same as on the CD version.

 

Actually, talking about brick wall limiters, I read somewhere that EMI tended to use limiters on their classical recordings and that they had some sort of engineering "rule" that the dynamic range had to be restricted, so it would not surprise me if this compression is what I am hearing, in which case it obviously happened in the recording studio at the time the recording was made. It's either that or that in combination with tape deterioration, though if it was stored tails out it should not have deteriorated at the end of the movement.

[Ivan]

...and happy I did. There are no explicit sonic pitfalls, pitch is great, especially part 3.

A bit expensive for such a small record, but there are very few like this one.

It's remastering of 1970; not sure plotting FFTs/spectrum would make much sense.

Bottom line is: If you like these performers you better get this record.

 

Yours truly,

 

-I.

[wdw]

I downloaded as well. We enjoyed a great musical evening, last night. Highly recommended.

Thanks for all your comments,

WDW

[JonP]

I'll have to have another listen to the last movement on the SACD. However, the mastering was done in 2011, brand new for the Japanese SACD release, and so different from the GROC, Karajan Edition etc.

 

In fact, all the EMI SACDs are completely new and fresh re-masterings which started with all the Furtwangler recordings -

 

 

I watched this video just now at 720 quality. I much preferred the sound of the original material in the Wagner demo. In my opinion the remastering that was performed has detracted from the original sound quality, reducing transparency, adding a fatiguing, sour sort of colouration to the string sound and compressing the dynamic range of the material. I wish they would have just left it alone. You can even see how the dynamic range has been reduced visually by looking at the before and after waveforms. And that higher degree of compression makes for un-easy and uncomfortable listening compared to the original. It's like putting on a well worn pair of leather shoes (the original) versus a brand new pair of stiff original designer ones (the remastered audio).

 

Also, they mention the audio has been in and out of the analogue domain once again for the EMI EQ to be performed (which in my view was not only un-necessary, but detracts from the quality of the original). Yet, the audio level appears to be well above -5.9dBFS. In my opinion and experience (and that of an extremely well-respected independant remastering engineer) they should have kept the audio level at a maximum of around -5.8dBFS as the distortion introduced by monolithic ADCs above this recording level is clearly audible and almost certainly at least partially responsible for the less transparent sound of the remastered version.

 

So during this remastering process, they have compromised sound in three ways (i) by performing un-necessary EQ (ii) by passing it into the analgoue domain and back to digital again and (iii) by setting the recording level too high on the second analogue to digital conversion.

 

As for CEDAR being transparent to the music, Mr. Gibson and I are going to have to agree to disagree on that point.

 

But this seems to be a problem with EMI in general. They just can't resist with mucking around with the audio and "improving" it, when all they are doing is making it worse than it already is. In my view, the original Wagner excerpt they played was of excellent quality and easily rivalling and often beating recordings made in the late 50s and even 60s. It should have been left alone.

[Kenneth Horne]

I'm really sorry to read your comments. Not having heard the Furtwangler SACDs, I can't comment, but was hoping they'd be issued in the West.

 

However, I have listened to and compared with earlier CD releases, Gieseking's Debussy recordings and in their latest incarnation they sound better than they ever have (in my opinion, of course). Big, open, mono sound, firm piano tone with much less of the fur on the sound in earlier issues.

 

I've not been able to do any listening for a few days, so haven't been able to check out the Beethoven Triple again as yet.

[JonP]

On a positive note though, I was impressed with the diligence they employed in finding the source material which would auger well for improved sources over the earlier CDs and vinyl.

 

Regarding the Japanese reissues, I have bought some from HMV Japan without any problems at all (I live in Australia). If you dont mind the wait and the shipping cost (and a good portion of the sleeve notes being Japanese), it is a good way to acquire specific releases.