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    MHWilliford

    Moving To The B&W 802 D4

    At few days more than a month into my Bowers & Wilkins 802D4 speakers taking the place of their 804D2 predecessors, the initial unboxing and connection euphoria has subsided and I’ve both consumed enough music purposely and walked-in on enough tracks served randomly by Roon to evaluate these speaker’s sound signature – and more specifically, to comment on how they compare to their 804D2 predecessors in case other readers might be considering an upgrade both in 800-series size and generation.

     

    To quickly summarize, if you can afford the upgrade, there is an immediate palpable difference delivered by the 802D4’s.  Without question the bass is more solid and coherent (even though I had long ago augmented the 804D2 predecessors with a 2x7inch PV1D subwoofer, it leaves that combination well-behind), and the midrange is more open and revealing – though this may also come from improved tweeter contributions as well - the fact that I cannot tell which driver is making the magic speaks to the overall coherence, and I suspect it is some of both.

     

    I believe the tech that Bowers & Wilkins has employed to improve this generation of Diamonds is not marketing hype – the increased cabinet stiffness, refined cross-over, improved turbine damping, new midrange driver suspension, and improved tweeter housing design among others - it all works.  Already I’ve experienced many “I’ve never heard that before” moments while listening to the 802 D4s, and I was plenty-happy with the older 804 D2s.  The considerable extra expense, extra mass, and extra imposition on my listening room affected by the Schwarzeneggeran 802D4’s has been worth it to me – I’ve had no buyer’s remorse.  Yes, being recently retired and not of unlimited means, I did have a couple of “I did what?” moments associated with spending half-a-nice-car on a pair of speakers, but never remorse.  Already, many moments of deeper music appreciation have been delivered, and if you are like me - also enjoying movies or binging the latest series with your wife or partner of choice, these experiences too have been elevated.

     

    bw_802d4_one.jpgTo detractors who comprehensively dismiss Bowers & Wilkins speakers as overly-bright, I would first and foremost state the obvious and say that this, like the great majority of choices we make in the “audiophile space” is a matter of taste.  Second, I would be sure to understand their reference point when you consider it.  Are they referencing 800 series or some other Bowers & Wilkins series that does not benefit from the precise and yet refined diamond tweeter? If 800 series, which generation, because each generation also has its own subtly-evolved sound signature. The point is to be careful of un-specified opinions.  What I would objectively report to potential buyers of the 802D4 is that these speakers are truly reference-class, with their larger sibling 801D4 (featuring the exact same turbine head/midrange driver and nautilus tube/diamond tweeter as the 802D4) being employed in some of the top recording studios around the world – thus, they are depended upon to replay the music fed to them as accurately as possible. 

     

    As you would then expect, when properly fed with well-recorded source material through quality amplification, these loudspeakers will bring you closer to an in-studio sound than you have likely experienced before.  Likewise, they will just as faithfully expose poor recordings that are not properly miked, too loud, too compressed, overly brassy or otherwise deficient.  This can be readily demonstrated if you listen to close-miked tracks where peak levels are clearly pushing well into the red, or if already distorted guitar amplification (the good, textured kind) is pushed-up another level to become etched and irritating, to say nothing if you navigate the waters of many 80’s and 90’s recordings (yes – of course there is plenty of quality music from this era, but it seems that recording engineers at the time were mostly sent to the pedal-to-the-metal-school of mastering subtlety).

     

    Audio scholars succinctly characterized the sound of the 802D4’s as monitor-like – and in my listening opinion that is, like the 802D4’s themselves, entirely accurate.  This is not to say that you cannot enjoy a whiskey while you listen to the 802D4’s – of course you can.  Select your source material appropriately, relax and surround yourself with aural goodness if that is what you are feeling.  As an example, Brian Bromberg’s The Saga of Harrison Crabfeathers from the album Wood – (44/16 via Qobuz) will have you sipping that whiskey at the edge of the stage in an intimate jazz club, Brain’s stand-up right in front of you, drums behind, and piano off to the right.  As I drifted into a musical trance enveloped by bass realism, I was honestly tricked for a flashing moment into thinking “this is a night I will never forget”.  No worries, the 802D4’s allow me to recreate it anytime I want.  Isn’t that the repeatable high most of us are striving for in our audio journey?    

     

    bw_802d4_absolute_mobil.jpgLikewise, don’t expect the 802D4’s to make excuses for recordings or sources in your collection or system that are lacking (mine exposed a bad PC audio driver in my first listening days, and I also learned that the 802D4’s do not require the same degree of toe-in as the 804D2’s – the upshot being several instances of significantly-wider sound-staging noted in my listening thus far).  I think accuracy vs. “warmth” or “listenability” is a tradeoff most of us understand.  If you are looking for a speaker to smooth-over everything in your collection and sound “good” no matter what it plays, you should probably consider other options.  If on the other hand you crave an in-home reference experience, and like me are addicted to the visceral reaction that music can trigger when we suddenly hear something evocative or strikingly more realistic from even familiar recordings, then this speaker may well be for you.  The effortless and yet often startlingly-good bass presence alone would be enough for the serious audiophile to justify their purchase.  What I wasn’t expecting was the amazingly open and layer-revealing nature of the midrange and tweeter that goes above and beyond my previous reference, bringing additional life to vocals and revealing new sounds that we all crave in our deep listening sessions.  Placing the 802D4’s into service marks the 5th landmark improvement in sound quality I have experienced in my audio journey of 40+ years.  They are precise, visceral, and highly recommended.

     

     

     

     




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    Yeah,  I had to wait 9 months last years on a car delivered from order time last year. 

     

    On the MA9500,  I primary upgraded for its newer upgradeable DAC, the better headroom, 8 band vs 5 band equalizer, better speaker connects and the claimed circuitry upgrades.  THE DAC was the key driver, since the MA7900 had a DAC that was not upgradeable.   Also, the MA9500 was the only SS integrated Mac amp that qualified for the upgrade program.   The upgrade program allows upgrade to separates.  I seriously looked at the MC462 Quad Balanced.  It would have been great (and def lower noise floor and distortion), but the necessary Mac preamps available for the upgrade seemed to more in the hybrid or tube focused camp not SS.   The SS separate preamps "seemed" to be just the same circuits packaged as separates for $8K+.  LOL   Just not a good fit for me.   I wanted to put that money on the B&W speakers.

     

    On digital, I would like to use my Apple Music, which now supports lossless, on the MA9500.  Right now, I just use for the ML car audio. streaming over wireless WiFi CarPlay and it works well.  So I have a good digital source already, but would be open to something like Tidal, if necessary.    Frankly, not sure the best way to get the digital source in to the Mac Mac.  Maybe Apple 4K TV, but the new device only had HDMI/ethernet- no optical out anymore, Nor does my TV have the eARC output.  However, I would like to use the Mac's DAC.  I guess, if necessary, I can always  go external DAC, but that is not optimal for cost and  setup compexity.

     

    So not sure the best way.  Maybe an external steamer or just fall back to an external DAC, as needed.  Roon seems to be more of a SW approach.   Heck, I don't know what would happen if just put the Apple TV 4K in to the Mac's ARC input.  The MA9500 manual just comments it has to be a TV source.  Could it just be that simple and they would negotiate a connection and the Mac's DAC ignore the video signal?  LOL

     

    Oh, the demo system, the dealer used a MA462 and 801D4 streamed with Rose Streamer using Tidal as digital source.  Supposedly, it supports Apple Music too. .  Not sure how they got it into the Mac system from Rose.  I assume RCA/phono connects.  I can ask.

    Open to anyone suggestions.  Thanks. Gary

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    you will want your digital source (say your Apple Music) fed digitally to your new MA9500 DA2 card. The DA2 accepts different types of digital input, but probably the USB input is best:

     

    Digital USB Input Sample Rate

    32-bit/44.1kHz to 384kHz (PCM)
    DSD64, DSD128, DSD256, DSD512, DXD352.8kHz, DXD384kHz
     
    So you need a source to play your digital music. What do you currently use that is physically close to the MA9500 location ? A computer ? or do you not yet have a digital source ? (maybe just your phone & wifi ??)
     
    If you have nothing, then the easiest solution is a standalone streamer with a USB output, assuming you don’t want to build and use a computer… To be honest the options are so wide and varied it’s hard to suggest something without understanding your current setup, and if you really have no source equipment to understand your budget too….. 
     
    It would be a great shame to buy 802s with an expensive McIntosh 300W amp and waste it using a phone & bluetooth !
     
     

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    Yeah.  lot of options, but kinda surprised it still is so clunky even today- like having to still use an attached laptop or maybe an Apple MAC mini.  Or even worst, overbuying  buying say a steamer (or high-end DAC)  and only really needing the digital output that the limited digital inputs t the  Mac stereo amp can accept today.

     

    I worked at IBM as an IT Architect, so tend to have strong views what the future holds or should be.     This state of art today reminds me of in the early 90's building a custom house and trying to decide what cables I just run while all the wall were open for three level.   I actually did none to my friends surprise.   In hindsight a good call, who runs coaxial cables in the wall today of a home.  Heck, even the 10mb ethernet cables would be dated today?    I think the same for today, there are lots of things that can work, but not really a best accepte  practice for high-end digital yet.

     

    And, as noted, the primary reason to upgrade the amp was to get the better McIntosh  build-in DAC.  It is still pretty limited in digital options like not having ethernet or any wireless options.   I personal would have dumped the very (to me) dated hard coded back panel  home control space  for a bigger footprint for  future proofing digital upgrade model.  Yeah, strong views.  LOL. .

     

    But I did not want to pass up the effectively $5400 that I go for my old 7 year old Mac Int amp.   It would have not aged well in the use market place.    I am betting betting that the DAC is good enough now and can live with the limited connect options. And someday there will hopefully be a DA3 from McIntosh.  And worst come to worst, I just tose in the towel and buy a high-end HW streamer or having those dang computer off the racks or my lap.  LOL

     

    If I was buying totally new from scratch, I would have gone with say the separate MC462 power amp and one of the more forward thinking preamp designs with lots of AV input/output, lots of wired/wireless connectivity with a good DAC.  And maybe even a decent LCD screen to show the song and configure.    LOL

     

    But,  I will figure out something.  I have to around late June to decide.   I am kinda fear I am seeing maybe a hidden Apple Mac mini hidden behind that hunking big McIntosh amp.    Or a streamer.  TBD. 

     

    Thanks

     

     

     

     

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    15 hours ago, skoor said:

    But,  I will figure out something.  I have to around late June to decide.   I am kinda fear I am seeing maybe a hidden Apple Mac mini hidden behind that hunking big McIntosh amp.    Or a streamer.  TBD. 

    The "problem" you're going to face is that your excellent new speakers and amp are going to reveal the shortcomings of a suboptimal front end.  You may want that high end streamer sooner rather than later

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    Yeah.  Always the problem.  Improve one area to just expose a weakness in another.  LOL

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    Having recently gone through a very similar upgrade path, I will strongly second the emotion (thanks Smokey) that you are going to find the 802's extremely revealing, and this will not have the benefit (as I hear it, realizing this is a pure taste issue) of the C2700 tube-based pre-amp.  This means you will hear the best from great recordings and the flaws in poor ones.  You will also hear your source better than ever.  After about 2 years of considering all the pros and cons, I first bought a Weiss 502, thinking the DAC was now the weak link in my system.  After conducting double-blind listening tests (including my son's young musician ears as a check to my 60-something year old sensors) we determined the Weiss was not delivering a consistently discernable difference.  So I went to the next most-likely culprit, my (undedicated) PC running Roon.  I trialed an Aurender N200 and no listening test was even required.  The upgrade in delivered music quality was instantaneously recognizable.  Incidentally, it was recommended by Aurender that I connect to the DA2 via coax vs. USB and that has been absolutely issue-free, whereas the USB drivers for McIntosh can sometimes be testy.  Now I wish I had the Weiss back, as I suspect with the premium source, it would be a great and audible pairing, but that (or perhaps a T+A DAC 200) must wait for next year's budget.

     

    I've not really liked Conductor vs. Roon as an HMI.  Musically it is fantastic, just clunkier to operate.  Compromises.  Maybe in the future Aurender will work with Roon - this is rumored but we'll see.  I your case skoor, I would seriously consider a purpose-built, completely dedicated PC (isolated LAN, isolated USB and or COAX, isolated power supplies, etc) running Roon and streaming either Qobuz or Tidal.  This is going to deliver you more musical joy given the construct of your new system.  

     

    As far as a DA3 is concerned, I am a little frustrated that McIntosh does not seem to be keeping pace, though they seem to be doing so (at least to a degree) in new standalone products.  Regardless, it seems unlikely to me that a module can deliver all the advantages of a stand-alone DAC, though I would love to be wrong about that and simply upgrade my module as well.

     

    Eager to hear more about things once you get up and running!

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    When I was researching to see if I should use the latest McIntosh upgrade program to the MA9500, I ran across this review from Hi-Fines by Paul Miller.  He had a small quip focusing on the DAT2 in the Mac (see below).  I can live with not to shabby when compared to a big $$$ DAC, I  think.   Hope it is reasonable true.  LOL

     

    Probably what I will do just to get some music streaming is use my 2nd MacBook Pro 14 (the one with Apple chip and mini-led screen) with just a usb cable and Roon.   I can dedicate  it to the DAC, since is was mainly just for travel.  Yuck, kinda of a kludge, but it should stream and test out the DAT2.  I think.   Of course, my server will the the Mac/Roon combo.

     

     

    "...Although I preferred using a dCS Vivaldi One [HFN Feb '18] as my audio source via the MA9500's balanced inputs, a Melco digital media server into the amp's internal DAC via USB wasn't too shabby..."

     

     

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    Sounds good as a starting point. You are going to find that your integrated amp plus the 802’s is well beyond not too shabby. Note the use of the Melco digital server in the setup you reference. Most folks find the digital source does make a difference.  That improvement is something to look forward to, and as you say, constantly evolving, so waiting a while to address your digital source will just provide, better, more affordable options. 

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    Hopefully any quality DAC will buffer and reclock any reasonable stable data stream from a server. 

     

    I worked out a way to get Apple Music into the Mac using Apple TV 4K.  Just not sure of the data stream quality- ie. bit rate or format.  It mayor may not sound good.  But I had been thinking about getting one someday anyway, so will just try it out.  They are relatively cheep.  The prior model actually had optical output, but the new is ethernet/hdmi only.

     

     

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    Well, done some preliminary research for a streamer.  So far here are my min requirements:

     

    1) WiFi 5/6E

    2) HDMI, USB C preferred (USB A acceptable) output

    3) Roon Ready

    4) Capable of streaming  up tp 96/192 bit perfect/low electroal circuit noise  to an external DAC (i.e. Mac DA2)

     

    Optional (as far as know now)

    1) Bluethoogh 5..0 (5.3 preferred)

    2)Coaxial/optical/HDMI/Ethernet outputs   Note: HDMI looks every interesting.

    3) External SSD support up to at least 1TB (preferably higher)

    4) Built-in DAC (if reasonable high quality) with phone inputs/ maybe balanced also. But I on't think I would actually ever used a built-in DAC in a streamer.

     

    Possible low cost candidates:

     

    1) Mac mini M2 8gb ram/ 256gb SSD

    2) EverSolo DMP-A6 Streamer

    3) WiiM Pro streamer it own app (don't cringe too much- lol.  Only use it as transport)

     

    Consideration/observations:

     

    The WiiM Pro at $149 could get the job done just using it as a hopefully bit perfect streamer.  Right now, it does not support Roon, so you would have to use their own app.  Also the DAC for input/out is basically junk, so optic/coxial output only to external DAC.  They have been promising Roon support for some now, but no delivery yet.

     

    The EverSolo DMP-A6 looks promising- very Rose like streamer look/features  Seems to have all the features-networking, input/outputs and and ESS DAC.  Apparently new to market, so support short/longerm is unknown.  Stree price maybe around $900, but TBD.  Concerns, I don't really need the built-in DAC nor is the external display really necessary, but it would be nice.  Nor do I see any need now for ADC capability.

     

    Apple MAC Mini.  Right now on sale for $500.  I already have Macs/Iphone so it just fits in.  Roon Ready.   Great networking/CPU capacity.  Long term good SW support.  Limited audio outputs to Mac DA2, but does have HDMI/USB.  About the same size as WiiM Pro.  Based on my M1 Macs with the new apple processor, the fan likely will never run or very slow, so probably very quiet and easy to hide on support shelf, since already headless.

     

    And??  Probably just get the Mac mini.   Tested and well-known support. But the DMP-A6 Is intriguing.

     

     

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    Understanding your connection preferences (though I would advocate for a hard-wired LAN), to achieve sound quality that is in line with the rest of your system, my experience is you will need to move-up to a purpose-built machine (whether by you or others) that will provide:

    1) Galvanically isolated LAN (wifi may mitigate this, but is widely debated)

    2) Isolated DAC output - especially if USB.

    3) Separate power supplies for the CPU, Outputs, etc. - i.e. as many isolated power supplies as you can reasonably afford - this really helps the noise floor and minimizes signal cross-talk between the computer's functions.

    4) High-quality, singular clock (does not have to be external, though the ability to be able to move to this in the future might be desirable) to eliminate signal competition between clocks (most PCs, Macs, etc. have several clocks onboard) and ensure highly accurate timing, which effects how accurately digital signals are transmitted.

     

    My suggestion is to watch some Hans Beekhuyzen vids on YouTube.  He has an excellent technical grasp, and maintains several systems at different levels.  Based on my own experience of using a nice PC-based streamer/server vs. the Aurender N200, you will want to shoot for something in that neighborhood to maximize the potential of your system.  There are Roon-ready options that fit the bill, and even Aurender is rumored to be Roon compatible in the future.

     

    Best -Mark

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    I have decided to go with the Eversolo DMP-A6 streamer used as a transport.   I will test with its internal DAC against the McIntosh MA9500's DA2, when I get it- just in case it does sound better. LOL  I was able to order it from Amazon for $860 USD.   

     

    Seriously thought about just going with either a headless Mac mini with Roon.   I would have tested on my 2nd MacBook Pro 14 at first.  But the $500 for Mac mini and and the 5 year cost of Roon for $900, def make the DMP-A6 it a very interesting first try candidate.  Actually a no-brainer maybe.   A digital transport steamer just does not have the sound quality issues vs using a streamer DAC. 

     

    The only high quality l digital transport only I could find was the Lumia U2 Mini. But at 3x the cost of the DMP-6A and itdoes not have WiFi. Steve Hoffman claims the DMP-6A as a transport only was equal to the Lumin Mini.  An he liked the app better.  Also, there are no local Lumin dealer in my area to even look.

     

    The Amazon 30 day return window should be enough time to evaluate myself.  ASR has give it excellent technical measurement and many audio reviews are amazed with the sound and build quality.   

     

    Oh, my router is upstarts, so major rewiring pain to not try WiFi first.

     

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    7 hours ago, skoor said:

    The Amazon 30 day return window should be enough time to evaluate myself.  

     

    I'm psyched for your new speakers and amp, they are great choices.  I hope you'll try higher end sources (and cables) during this 30 day window and report back.  Good luck!

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