USB Sampling Rate to DAC

[pc2tube]

Hi,

 

I am new to the world of computer audiophile. I have got questions on USB sampling rate.

 

After reading some of the forum postings, I need some clarifications to wrap it all up...please humour me.

 

1. USB out - sampling of more than 16-bit/44.1kHz cannot be achieved? Is this true?

 

2. Is it because Windows and Mac OS X do not support USB Audio Class 2?

 

3. Unless a proprietary driver is written for the DAC? True?

 

4. I have a Cambride Audio DACMagic. If the above were all true, can anyone other than CA tell me why its USB connection is restricted to 44.1kHz sampling rate?

 

5. What happens when I playback a 24-bit/96kHz hi-res audio track? Am I losing a lot of signal/data from this track during playback?

 

6. My DACMagic takes a maximum incoming sampling rate of 96 kHz. If I go through say a M2TECH hiFace (which could technically achieve 192kHz) on my laptop, I would be able to reach 24-bit/96 kHz?

 

 

[flatmap]

USB out can provide at least 24/96. But your DAC has to support this.

 

Sorry, I'm unsure if higher bit rates are achievable... but I'm sure that others here will know.

 

[blueixus]

1) USB will support 192kHz 24 Bit

2) I think OS X does support Class 2 and windows can with a third party driver.

3) Proprietry drivers are usually needed for the computer not the PC

4) Most USB connections on DACS where limited to 44.1kHz due to major Audio manufacturers lack of foresight and knowledge about computer audio. High res transfer via USB has been driven by a small group of companies (E.G. Wavelength, M2Tech and Empirical Audio) who are at the bleeding edge of this technology. As things develop Audio manufacturers are now licensing their high res USB outputs from these companies (eg Ayre uses Wavelength technology)

5)Yes if it is played back at lower resolution

6)Yes, providing all is set up properly. You need to check sample rates in Audio Midi or PC equivalent.

 

[pc2tube]

 

Thanks to both flatmap and blueixus. This helps! Happy New Year.

 

[bottlerocket]

1) Not true. There are a lot of products now that support either 24/96 or 24/192 on USB.

 

2) I think both Windows and OSX support USB 2.0 although every product I've seen that goes to 24/192 USB on Windows requires a driver.

 

3) see www.usbdacs.com for Wavelength's site. There is some good info there on USB. Wavelength licenses software to handle asyncronous USB transfer and I assume this is considered a proprietary driver, but one distinction is that with many USB DACs, no additional driver installation is required on the computer to achieve 24/192 if the computer is a MAC.

 

4) The DACMagic was designed several years ago. Alot of ground has been covered on the USB side in the last couple of years. Some manufacturers understand SPDIF well and USB not so well and the DACmagic is a better SPDIF installation than USB. But you are correct to say, CA would be the best to answer this.

 

5). If you playback 24/96 on the DACMagic via the USB it will get down-sampled to 16/44. You will see this on the idiot lights on the front of the unit. Note that the optical out on a MAC to the optical in on the DACMagic works great up to 24/96.

 

6) I think the Mtech HiFace would work fine up to 24/96 (and higher on another DAC). It would use the USB out on your computer and the SPDIF coaxial in on the DACMagic. I have a DACmagic and I've collected mostly 24/96 material in hi-res. For the 24/192 tracks I have, I made copies at 24/96 using dbPoweramp so there would be no on the fly downconversion going to the DACMagic. Also my Mac is limited to 24/96 on the outgoing optical so that was a concern as well.

 

 

[sq225917]

The Dacmagic uses an older USb receiver chip and is limited to lower sample rates because of that choice.

 

There's a replacement for the 840c waiting in the wings, so expect a Dacmagic update in the future as well. it would seem likely that higher bit rate USB/Async could be on the cards for these.

 

Also, Anagram tech seem to have dropped their higher end stuff so maybe it's a completely different design due to tech obsolescence ?

 

[pc2tube]

 

Thanks to bottlerocket and sq225917 and again, earlier to flatmap and blueixus...you guys helped put the pieces together.

 

I guessed I am old-school trying to breakout. It all started with a mouldy and peeling Dire Straits CD...and thought its time I started a project to archive the 1200+ CDs collected over 20 yearsfor futureproofing.

 

Therefore, the DACMagic kind of fit my purpose.

 

However, when I demo other USB DACs at the audiophile mall, I looked at this with a whole new perspective.

 

I am sure Wavelength, Empirical, Bel Canto and M2 are on the bleeding edge.

 

Anyone tried any other cheaper USB->S/PDIF converter? E.g. from China, Taiwan or Hong Kong?...Or these products simply cannot make it?

 

 

 

[willrc]

I have a follow-up question on this topic. I have also just bought a DACMAGIC which I initially plugged in to my mac via USB and was delighted with it.

 

When I tried it with the PC (also via USB) I couldn't help feeling the sound was slightly less 'sweet'. I am generally quite skeptical about this sort of thing and assumed the bits must be the same from each source, mac and PC. However the more I listened the more convinced I became.

 

Eventually I noticed that the sampling rate indicator was showing 44.1 when connected to the Mac but 48 with the PC! This is despite the source material being the same, i.e. 44.1 Apple Lossless. I have tried with various other formats and music streamers but it seems Windows 7 will only allow 48kHz output over USB. This subjectively appears to degrade sound quality, presumably because it is being poorly resampled (and then resampled again in the DACMAGIC).

 

Anyone else noticed this? Any workarounds?

 

Thanks, Will

 

[blueixus]

Regarding cheap converters I would stick with a M2Tech Hiface, it is already pretty cheap and does a very good job for the money, I have heard cheap Dacs that don't have state of the art USB/SPIDF converters that can be 'rescued' by the HiFace.

 

There 'maybe' better converters out there but not by much, the Hiface was and still is a game changer, one of the few real audiophile bargins for sure.

 

If at some stage you trade up the DacMagic the Hiface was always be easy to sell on. That said there are some very good legacy dacs around that ownership of a Hiface will ensure have a good few years left in them.

 

[pc2tube]

 

That makes sense.

 

[pc2tube]

 

Have you tried checking the Sound setup on Win7's Control Panel? Look for "C-Media USB Headphone Set" and see what's the sampling rate...There should only be 44.1 or 48 kHz for options.

 

[ted_b]

new DACs like M2Tech Young (24/384k), Antelope Zodiac Gold (24/384k) and Playback Designs MP-3 (24/2.6Mhz) are beginning to really push the sample rate envelope.

 

[willrc]

Whatever sampling rate I set in the windows control panel (44.1, 48 etc.) the output rate over USB is always 48.

 

From my Mac it behaves as it should...

 

Can anyone recommend a good replacement USB audio driver for Windows7?

 

Thanks, W

 

[dsnyder]

Hello,

 

Thanks for the references to the new m2Tech and Antelope Audio products. They look fantasic. Still $2k+ is a bit outside of my budget for a DAC, especially since technology changes so quickly. Looking forward to the day when similar tech is available for under $1k.

 

-- David

 

 

[dsnyder]

Hello "PC2Tube",

 

As others have commented, the m2Tech HiFace is probably the best solution for a low cost audiophile grade USB->S/PDIF adapter. It works well with Mediamonkey using the Winamp kernel streaming output module. A friend is using this setup and is quite happy with it. If you already have a nice outboard DAC that you are happy with, the m2Tech is probably the adapter with the best price/performance ratio.

 

Otherwise, I've had pretty good luck with the Creative E-MU 0404 USB and upgraded power supply as an inexpensive stand-alone USB DAC. This is not a plug-and-play solution though, so be prepared to tinker a bit. If you're not a tinkerer, there are probably other USB DAC's out there for more money that are easier to setup and provide similar performance.

 

Feel free to search these pages for other posts that I have written on my experiences with the Creative though. Cheers.

 

-- David

 

 

[hddoc]

USB output of my new MacBook Air appears to be limited to 96kHz. Also it has no firewire output.

 

Using a USB DAC like the Ayre or E-MU 0404USB, is one limited to using only a Windows set-up in order to play 24/176 or 24/192 music files?

 

In other words, is a Mac running Snow Leopard limited to only 96kHz output from its USB port? If so, is there any 3rd party software or driver that will allow 176 or 192kHz files to stream natively from the USB port?

 

[Jazzed Up]

I have as follows

 

Same Cambridge Audio DACMAGIC the current Azur model, which can accept incoming sample rates up to 96

 

I have two computers

 

1.the Current Macbook Pro 2.4ghz 64 bit

 

and an old

 

Packard Bell ( 5 years old )

 

my dilemma is similar

 

When I connect the Macbook pro via either optical sp/dif or USB to the DAC it shows a maximum incoming sample rate of 44.1??

 

this is when I use either Amarra 2.1.1 or Foobar ( computer is dual boot running windows 7 on another partition for foobar only )

 

it says in Midi either 16 bit USB and 24 bit Optical

 

but will not go any higher than 44.1 on the dac

 

when I connect the Packard bell ( an old dated computer ) and run foobar it automatically shoes as 48 on the dac??, I find this confusing to be honest as I thought the macbook would do that!!, I havent upscaled prefs in asio unclicked upscaling 44 - 48

 

whats happening and how can I get the pro to run at 48 via the dac

 

Edwina

 

[ludionisio]

Hello Edwina,

 

I'm not sure if this would help, but have you tried tweaking the Quicktime preferences?

 

[ted_b]

above 16/44.1. I hope no one sold it to you as doing it. Even though the DAC upsamples everything to 24/192 after the input, the input is what Audio Midi is seeing. The old computer must be upsampling before foobar.

 

The Dacmagic can input 24/96 but only through non-USB inputs, so you'll need a USB to SPDIF interface to do it.

 

[ted_b]

the original power supply/wall wart was both a European plug and even with a US plug converter was problematic, but my great dealer is sending me a new 18V ps....in the meantime I sauntered down to Radio Shack and bought one. Voila, the DAC works, and the newly released MAC drivers work perfectly up to...yes, 32/384. I played some 24/384 files (downrez'd from 2L DSD) and some 32/192 files...it sounds good, especially given that it's dead cold, not broken in, uses a Rat Shack $20 power supply, and until I get my buddy's borrowed Liveline RCA's uses cheap Guitar Center Livewire XLR-to-RCA adapters for my XLR Livelines. IOW, it has four strikes against it currently (all easily rectified) and still sounds good so far.

 

Net/net, with proprietary drivers USB can sample rate quite high!!

 

[pc2tube]

A quick comment on power supply unit. If you bought the DacMagic the last couple of months, the power supply should be the improved version.

 

If not, I think CA is replacing the PSU for free. Please check link:

 

http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/content.php?COID=197

 

 

By the way, if anyone is interested, I received feedback from CA that they have no plans to update the chip set or do any firmware upgrade (not sure if that's even possible) on the current DacMagic model.

 

The 16-bit/44.1 kHz incoming sampling rate through USB will stay.

 

Next model perhaps? I am otherwise quite happy linking different components through this unit.

 

Lately, I happen to have the latest Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Surround 5.1 Pro to test via USB to TOSLINK out of laptop to the DacMagic. 24-bit/96kHz is achievable.

 

I will take the advice of the brothers/sisters of Computer Audiophile and go get a M2TECH hiFace today for my further pursuance and experiment.

 

Have fun.

 

[hddoc]

Great to hear that the M2 Tech drivers allow the Mac to output 24/192 and more from the USB.

 

Any idea if those drivers might work with a less $$USB Dac, like the the

E-MU0404?

 

Do you have a link to those drivers so as to encourage experimentation?

 

[ted_b]

bu the M2tech Young DAC is a 32/384 capable DAC. Just putting those drivers in another DAC won't cut it.

 

[hddoc]

Not to 32/384 of course, but what about to 24/176 or 24/192?

 

[pc2tube]

Hi hddoc,

 

I am still learning so bear with me.

 

If M2Tech has drivers to process sampling rate above 24-bit/192kHz out from MAC, that'll be splendid.

 

However, I thought that, thereafter, it all depends on what your DAC can take as incoming sampling rate.

 

And by the way, I got the M2Tech hiFace last Friday...love it.