Euphony OS w/Stylus player setup and issues thread

[brucew]

How do I access BIOS/UEFI on a Euphony Stylus installation? The OS SSD was newly partitioned and formatted for this NUC (5i5) and Stylus has been installed, but F2 does not work at boot up, nor do F10, Del, or Esc. It just goes on to boot up in Euphony. I'd like to see/adjust the Hyperthreading/Turbo.

 

Also, all the posts I can find on Core isolation seem to be for CPU's offering 8-12 cores, but no recommends for only 4 cores. (I'm not using DSD, Roon, HQPlayer etc., just Stylus playing 24/96 max with no upsampling.)

[brucew]

13 hours ago, di-fi said:

Bios has nothing to do with the os (Euphony/ Windows) and works even without OS installed. It’s already installed on the mobo and you have to access before the OS loads. Consult your mobo documentation.

Depending settings sometimes there could be close to zero seconds to press F2, F10 or any specific mobo related combination. But you can increase this. Using DEL or F2 etc should be the usual way.  Make sure you know what (and what not) to change remember it to avoid future surprises. If the bios was configured by a previous owner follow the reset procedure as documented in the manual.

 

Core isolation works perfectly for 4 cores. You should be able to find examples here, but look in the older pages when more users had less cores like 4.

"manual"? I didn't know Stylus had a manual... and "reset" Euphony does not appear in the Knowledge base.

Perhaps you mean I should restore to the Windows OS from my image backup, mess with Bios/Eufi, and then resintall Euphony?

[brucew]

11 hours ago, di-fi said:

Part two:

If your mobo allows, with hyper threading activated you can create virtual cores and for example double to 8 cores (from 4).

 

Indeed less common but examples with 4 core isolation:

0-1 gstp 2 stylus 3

0 gstp 1 stylus 2-3

some more info on these pages:

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/58164-building-a-diy-music-server/page/4/#elControls_1022590_menu

 

I had already tried 0 gstp 1-2 irq/42 3 in order to put my USB's IRQ on its own core and gstp on its own core. Sounded worse so I went back to the default. If I read the Core Isolation article correctly, 'gstp' is the player itself and 'stylus' is the program name for the remote interface so wasn't thinking I should need to be as concerned about 'stylus'. Did I misunderstand the 'stylus' program in core isolation?

 

In general my goals are to get the SQ on par with my CD transport. So messing about with settings I can be impressed with certain aspects of playback SQ but then I compare to my Audiolab CDT6000 and realise I've got a way to go yet.

[brucew]

23 minutes ago, Yiakubou said:

 

Maybe it's not that much about Euphony or the NUC itself, although it's good to have. What DAC do you use? Are you trying to compare CDT6000 into your DAC vs. Euphony NUC into what exactly?

CD transport and the Euphony NUC each feed into the same DAC. I don't really see the brand/model of the DAC is relevant. The SQ I get from CD transport > DAC is not perfect but is very good and my reference. It could be the USB vs SPDIF interface but will be testing that with a quality DDC in the next week to see what it improves. I don't really want to get into evaluations of what DAC or what DDC at this point as it distracts from the conversation at hand.

[brucew]

2 hours ago, di-fi said:

https://audiokernel.com/EuphonyGuide4.pdf

please read slower or read my message again. you seem to mix up the OS and the BIOS hence my warning to not change BIOS settings without knowing exactly what you are doing. I do not want to be rude but that's what I understand from your reply.  

OK, I see you meant that if a previous owner had changed the BIOS, I should reset to Intel's recommended settings.

 

I know that BIOS is not a part of Euphony but contains hardware boot parameters prior to loading an OS. Yet several people talk about turning Hyperthreading on or off in the Bios.

 

My SSD, was previously running Windows 11 and could use Advanced Startup options to reboot into EUFI and change Bios -- obviously with care and appropriate knowledge about what I was changing and what that would do. No such option in Euphony... and no hardware keys seem to work to that end. So I refer back to my question: is my only option to restore to the Windows OS from my image backup, mess with Bios using Advancved Startup and then reinstall Euphony?

[brucew]

Yeah, tried all that, several times, from a wired keyboard. No luck. Oh, I do have a different SSD for this PC with W10 installed! I can just swap out disk 0 and boot up to get access to the BIOS and then switch back.

 

Meanwhile I've been trying a few frequency scaling settings.

Interesting. On a NUC5i5 used as a single box Stylus player (no Roon, no upsampling, no DSD), I tried the following CPU frequencies: 800, 1200, 1600, 2000 and found that 1600 sounded more natural. 800 and 1200 could get a little congested and lost the space between notes and instruments, yet 2000 was a little too much, as was the ‘Performance’ setting on the CPU Governor. I found that a frequency of 1600 and the Governor using the ‘Conservative’ program sounded more natural and yet had good separation and definition of details and transients.

This also seemed to make less noticeable the slight timing issues (as compared to the CDT6000’s SPDIF clock).

Obviously, there’s a lot of frequency settings not yet tried, but will listen a bit here.

[brucew]

It does seem that the best CPU frequency settings (Max freq & CPU Governor) are not the same booted to RAMroot as with RAMroot disabled. That is interesting.

[brucew]

6 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

What were your findings with ramroot on and off? 

 

With ramroot off, I liked 1.6GHz and Governor=Conservative.

But with ramroot, those settings were a bit too sharp and yet the music's sense of space was not as good.

 

With ramroot on, i prefered 1.2GHz and Gov=userspace or perhaps 'schedutil'

[brucew]

6 minutes ago, di-fi said:

I just decided to move in the opposite correction and i will try to totally cut off my server and endpoint from the home network to improve SQ. Ditching all optimisation including router and NAS, LPs + cables , fiber and DC power, everything connected to that 10 meter chain.

 

So now for playing local files  I have to make a 2Gb M2 drive work connected to the server over usb and for streaming and iPad I will also add a 4g router connected to the ether Regen ( also to be upgraded and replaced soon). 

We'll see. We'll "hear" actually!

A mate has a 4G router dedicated to his HiFi so that it is completely independent of the internet and routers serving the rest of the house. He says the SQ improved significantly just from that. I'll probably try that eventually.

 

I assume you are still employing hardware and software optimisations directly on your server?

[brucew]

20 minutes ago, di-fi said:

If you mean the Euphony server, yes.

 

If that mate by any chance is called Martin, that's how I got introduced to the 4G router solution. I wonder why not more people are using that, specially with SIM data plans being so affordable. Except for Canada, and that's where I live unfortunately. But very likely we'll move to Europe soon, hence my thinking.

(Would be much cheaper to stay in Canada and pay an expensive data plan of course, but everything for SQ , you'll understand i am sure ;-)

 

Moving to Europe for better HiFi... now that's commitment to the music! LOL

 

Actually it's Tony @Coherent Systems.

[brucew]

Also AFAIK, playing a CD does the read error correction real-time whilst playing from a file has had the error correction already done during the rip, if well configured. I use DBpoweramp to rip CD's and not all CD/DVD drives are equal in their ability to read through media errors. Of course opening and send a file and getting it to the DAC without also sending analogue noise down the commons is the bigger deal many of us are pursuing.

[brucew]

3 hours ago, di-fi said:

Interesting explanation. But besides the used memory types, there definitely is also an important audible relation with the chosen quality of power (supply) and how the “better” power is connected to RAM or SSD.

 

For example the M.2 Femto SSD being powered through external 5V by a very good LPS can still augment SQ of it’s music files in a considerable way according to most of it’s users even tough latency is below par in above example. 
Or SSD’s can be each mounted on a different power board so isolation and good, ideally exclusive 5V power, can elevate SQ in a very substantial way.
 

Both Innuos and Antipodes are exploiting the use of exclusively SSD for music files with excellent power with no attention for special quality RAM. Antipodes uses one specific type of Samsung SSD and Innuos is now using SLC ram for their OS in at least the most recent top server.

What is unclear to me is if I set music to buffer to RAM and get an industrial grade Apacer RAM, does Optane do me any good, or are they alternate approaches to SQ, practically speaking? Separately powering HDD/SDD or RAM is not an option for me.

[brucew]

8 hours ago, davide256 said:

I think you are confusing RAM boot with buffer to RAM. RAM boot and Optane drive boot are functionally similar, which sounds better will

depend on the HW design of the machine, ie which contaminates the power supply bus with less noise during use.  RAM buffer is a convenience

for album/playlist playback. and can be used to minimize network activity during local playback. Since Optane as a drive has become an obsolete feature,

Apacer memory with an Intel 670P SSD is a good option.

 

13 hours ago, di-fi said:

Besides the usual configuration where operating system and files are on the same drive, the operating system can also be located on an high quality Optane drive (the smaller size like 16 or 32 Gb.) The Optane drive sits between the processor and the SSD or HDD drives with the music files (the latter being larger in size from 1 Gb and up usually)

 

Good quality RAM will benefit SQ. RAM with good power will sound even better.

 

Also good quality SSD or NVMe (where sound files are located) will benefit SQ, and again with good power they will sound better. With independent external power they sound best. But it is not always obvious to power them independently.

If booting to RAM, then in theory an Optane drive would have little further effect I guess. If booting to an Optane drive but buffering files to RAM, then the Optane relates to OS/software related overhead and noise and perhaps cache but not to the difference bewteen buffered & non-buffered files.

 

I didn't realise that Optane as a drive is obsolete. I've been seeing some for sale and thought I'd seen 11th gen NUC's spec'd to be compatible. (my budget lives closer to the NUC world than more configurable ITX, etc.)

[brucew]

6 hours ago, davide256 said:

I couldn't get an 11i3 NUC to recognize 32gb of Optane memory that I'd used in an 8 series NUC as a drive. There are still some

Optane SSD's floating around, those should work but avoid the hybrid ones.

 

 

So when the 1135G7 specs say it supports Optane Memory, it means hybrid?

"Intel® Optane™ memory is a revolutionary new class of non-volatile memory that sits in between system memory and storage to accelerate system performance and responsiveness. When combined with the Intel® Rapid Storage Technology Driver, it seamlessly manages multiple tiers of storage while presenting one virtual drive to the OS, ensuring that data frequently used resides on the fastest tier of storage. "

[brucew]

After getting an improved LPSU I'm back to testing Euphony through a NUC and a Mutec DDC vs a CD transport, with mixed results in SQ.

 

One thing I don't understand is how the sound would change between being fed by a media bridge router directly vs. putting a switch in between the router and NUC. The files are on an interior HDD, not streamed, and the ethernet connection is only to allow use of the remote and validate the Euphony license.

 

Perhaps because there is regular communication between the player and the remote and Euphony licensing, that somehow causes the traffic to have a different effect on SQ with a switch vs without? Strange.

 

Strange too, the separation of instruments is a bit better with the switch and yet the image depth is lost. So I can hear each instrument more distinctly but it is dimensionally only 2D rather than 3D making it less realistic, no breath of life. The 3D is a bit better without the switch. Perhaps that is a function of the switch and its LPSU not having been used in a while? But after 15 minutes I gave up and removed the switch.

 

In any case, the CD transport still has more realistic dimensionality, tone, flow, and breath of life even if the Euphony-NUC player has a better detail, texture, and separation in the lower mids and upper bass. The CD also handles the background in complex passages better. Perhaps that is down to being constrained by a basic NUC rather than a pimped and fettled PC (working to a budget).

[brucew]

3 hours ago, c-w said:

 

There is a regular communication between Euphony machine and Client to update song position on your screen: this you can change from 1sec up to no updating at all.
Besides that there is a IP address reporting once every hour (needed for Launch Euphony screen and Mobile apps) and license check every 12 hours.

You can try Play & Relax (Play and disconnect) which disconnects the Euphony machine network completely for the duration of your current Queue (you can not control Euphony until playback finishes - pressing power button on some machines may reconnect the network but don't count on it)

Yes, I'm aware of those factors. I just find it odd that they alone might cause an ethernet switch to affect the SQ of the music. It does seem that the app goes to sleep when the mobile screen is off for a minute or so. One would think that would be an antidote to this scenario. BTW, the "play and relax" sounds nice until I tried it a few times. Sometimes you just need to be able to pause... and pay any SQ penalty.

[brucew]

I've decided to try Stylus Endpoint fed by a PC running Logitech Media Server but am having a problem with syncronisation of controls and display Pressing Play, the song timer starts but no music. After many seconds the sound starts coming out at the start of the song. But the display shows I'm 10-80 secibds into the song. The amount of delay depends on the lgnth of the song. If I press pause, the time indicator switches to the correct time for the music that was finally being played. These delays and out of synch display continue on subquent songs in the playlist. Sometimes the player seems to get confused and restarts playing the song even though it's on pause.

 

I'm not really sure where to start in troubleshooting this. I'm using the latest LMS on the server PC. The server, endpoint, and remote app are all on the same router with nothing else on that router.

 

Web Interface: Default

Streaming Method: Direct

Volume Adjustment: None

Database Memory Config: High (8GB hardware RAM)

[brucew]

8 hours ago, brucew said:

I've decided to try Stylus Endpoint fed by a PC running Logitech Media Server but am having a problem with syncronisation of controls and display Pressing Play, the song timer starts but no music. After many seconds the sound starts coming out at the start of the song. But the display shows I'm 10-80 secibds into the song. The amount of delay depends on the lgnth of the song. If I press pause, the time indicator switches to the correct time for the music that was finally being played. These delays and out of synch display continue on subquent songs in the playlist. Sometimes the player seems to get confused and restarts playing the song even though it's on pause.

 

I'm not really sure where to start in troubleshooting this. I'm using the latest LMS on the server PC. The server, endpoint, and remote app are all on the same router with nothing else on that router.

 

Web Interface: Default

Streaming Method: Direct

Volume Adjustment: None

Database Memory Config: High (8GB hardware RAM)

BTW: the probnlem does not happen when the Euphony Endpoint is set to Squeezelite. Before it was an Endpoint, I had it set up as regular Stylus with Buffer before play. That setting is not available under Endpoint but  I wonder if it is trying to use that hidden setting and messing things up... and if so, how to test/fix it.

[brucew]

23 hours ago, brucew said:

BTW: the problem does not happen when the Euphony Endpoint is set to Squeezelite. Before it was an Endpoint, I had it set up as regular Stylus with Buffer before play. That setting is not available under Endpoint but  I wonder if it is trying to use that hidden setting and messing things up... and if so, how to test/fix it.

Here is Euphony Support's response:

"...we advice you to use SqeezeLite with LMS if this works for you. Endpoint is meant to be used only with our Stylus software, and here we give assurance it works in full performance. All other options are only optional, as do not study how LMS is working. LMS is designed to control Squeeze devices which Endpoint is not."

 

I'm not impressed. The Euphony control app clearly shows that, "StylusEP implements two endpoint protocols: Styles protocol... [and] Squeezebox Slimproto-Stylus EP can be controlled by Roon or LMS." [no caveats listed or implied].

 

There other website language implies that Stylus offers unique SQ (that other software does not). I'm not inclined to pay two subscriptions to Stylus just to get Stylus on the server and the endpoint.

[brucew]

I'm confused about the amount of memory used by Stylus. I'm currently running Stylus on a single box system with 16gb RAM. Whether I buffer 3 songs or en entire album, it stills says 7.6GB of memory left. So apparantly I don't understand what its talking about... or how much RAM is used between Stylus and an average 16/44 album's worth of music buffered to memory. BTW: I've nothing stored in the Expert settings about RAM.

[brucew]

16 hours ago, di-fi said:

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/55916-euphony-os-wstylus-player-setup-and-issues-thread/?do=findComment&comment=1240909

 

Maybe reading this helps a little?

Cheers

I'd already read that. But if 2 songs buffered plus Stylus' foot print = 8GB*, that seems much larger than implied by other conversations here that seem to indicate 4GB is fine for some uses of playing 16/44 music. If 8GB is used when 2 songs are buffered, why is no more used when an entire elbum is buffered? It should be 500MB more RAM used.

 

I have 16GB RAM and it says 7.6GB remains after buffering, which implies that 8GB is used.