Recording CDs from an audio CD player to MAC

[Audio_ELF]

Great idea souptin!

 

[EricJ]

Sounds like there's a few tests I can do but this will be an interesting experiment.

 

I will try Souptin's test with a suitable CDR. And I will test the playback through iTunes of a track recorded from the Mac's CD ROM and compared with a track recorded from the Cyrus CD transport.

 

If I can find a suitable source that's copyright free I will share the recorded wavs so you can give it a listen and make your own minds up :-)

 

[mwheelerk]

Would there be any concern or consideration of jitter being introduced from the Cyrus to the Mac for ripping versus the internal drive?

 

[EricJ]

The Cyrus has a clock jitter < 70pS so I don't think so.

I'm still waiting on a co-ax interconnect to arrive so the testing will have to wait :-)

 

[anax69]

I wonder if the people claiming that burning a cd using a dvd burner (whatever method, software,etc they might be using) is superior to using a cd transport ("going back 20 years..." haha) have actually compared the two ways. I'll bet money they have not. So, Eric, if you're still there, all it takes is a simple test. The Cyrus is a good transport: if you do it correctly, the WAV file that you'll have with it will trounce the WAV file acquired through burning. "Ms. Eloise: Ooohh! But that's wrong! That does not make any sense!! Bla,bla,bla."

 

[EricJ]

I still need to get hold of a suitable cable to hook up the Cyrus transport and the Mac. But its on my list of things to do :-)

 

[Codifus]

Anax69,

 

the issue is not whether the Cyrus transport sounds better or not. It probably does. Rather, why the mac sounds bad is what were trying to resolve. As many of us are trying to point out, the bad sound is most likely not due to the file itself.

 

In fact, I bet if Eric were to run your test he would find that the Cyrus generated wav file, when played back thru his mac, would still sound worse than when playing the cyrus.

 

You will find that more often than not, the issue is with how the files gets from the computer to the dac. The previously mentioned M2Tech USB to SPDIF suggestion was a great one. SSD drives, jitterbsuters, memory play etc. All these factors can have a positive effect on getting the data to the DAC correctly.

 

The really cool thing about computer audio is that whenever you upgrade your system, those bit perfect files you've stored sound better and better as your system gets better at retrieving and playing those files.

 

CD

 

[EricJ]

I think there are 2 issues here:

 

1. Extracting the correct information from the CD so that the Wav file is as close to the original as possible.

 

2. Subsequent playback of the Wav file.

 

I'm really only interested in the first issue. DVD Rom drives are not optimal for extracting data from an audio CD so I think using the Cyrus as the source will give me better quality recordings. Now if they will sound as good when played back through the Mac is another story :-)

 

[anax69]

Codifus,

You sound like you really know what you're talking about and your tone shows a true professorial confidence... So there's no point in debating this. Still, I don't think Eric ever mentioned a BAD sound. This is not the issue here. The issue, again, is whether using a CD transport is better than using a DVD burner when making WAV files. That's all. The WAV file played through the computer (regardless of SSD, M2Tech, and other possible valid enhancements) will always sound worse than the cd played through the CD player. I have tried so many things and done so many comparisons that it feels moronic having to say this. Yet this is not the view of the majority in computer audio discussions... I wonder if those who defend the views that you seem to endorse have ever run these tests. Have you? Or is it just based on Science?

BTW, what you say in your last paragraph is tautological for it is true for all sources I can think of.

 

[James1776]

My 2007 iMac rips CD's...but every effort varies in the noise the Mac makes in the process, (Clunks, thuds, pauses, etc) which makes me believe the drive is not of the same quality of even a really cheap, but quiet CD player. Of course, my PC's make similar noises.

 

[anax69]

but what's stopping you from doing it? a cable??

 

[Codifus]

The issue, again, is whether using a CD transport is better than using a DVD burner when making WAV files. That's all.

 

Technically, a dvd burner should outperform a CD burner handily. The laser in a DVD drives is an order, or orders, of magnitude more refined than a CDs laser. The DVD laser has to read pits so small that 5 GB of data can fit on its optical disc. Compare that to a CD with a capacity of 650 MB, or .65 GB from its disc which is the same exact size. When a DVD drive reads a CD, those etched pits must look like boulders in comparison:)

 

 

 

The WAV file played through the computer (regardless of SSD, M2Tech, and other possible valid enhancements) will always sound worse than the cd played through the CD player.

 

Disagree. When its done right, a computer based audio system will beat a cd player. It is the wave of the future. Or maybe we are going back to the future. Before a CD is made, music is mastered from a computer (hard drive) or tape, and audio engineers are always striving to mass produce a CD that sounds as good as the master recording. That's why formats such as HDCD and XRCD came about. Listening to music from a computer is similar to how the original recording was listened to. All music ever recorded was first put on tape or a hard drive before mass duping to CD. By moving to computer based audio, you're really just getting rid of the middleman:) Cassettes have died. Vinyl is kicking from 12 feet under. CD got next:)

 

I wonder if those who defend the views that you seem to endorse have ever run these tests. Have you? Or is it just based on Science?

 

 

Just based on Science? I haven't done these tests but I have done other tests of my own. I think I see where you're coming from, though. I do not believe everything as a given. Science is correct but sometimes it has to catch up on things yet unexplained. Jitter in digital audio seems to be one of these things. When CDs first came out they were touted as perfect music forever. Now we know that those original CDs had massive amounts of jitter, were produced from lousy AD converters etc.

 

 

You might find this discussion about drives and ripping interesting;

 

 

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=68223.0

 

CD

 

[anax69]

My dear fellow, you have no idea where I'm coming from... Whatever, I'm not in the business of trying to convert fanatics.

I'll say though that to disagree without doing the tests yourself does not show a very intelligent strategy. Over and out.

 

[Codifus]

Dude, this forum is called Computer Audiophile. Translation: lover's of computer audio. If you believe that the computer will never sound as good as a CD transport then why even bother?

 

Also, as to suggesting the unintelligibility of my testing strategy, let me ask you, do you test everything? I bet you don't. You just need to win an argument, whether you are right or wrong, you just have to win.

 

Grow up. Please.

 

CD

 

[Audio_ELF]

Sorry... Duplicate post.

 

[Audio_ELF]

Eric, you say you are only (I assume you mean in this discussion) interested in "Extracting the correct information from the CD so the WAV file is as close as possible to the original". Well what I (and others) have been saying is that doing an extraction (rip) on the computer (even) using a DVD ROM drive IS the best method for getting as close to the original... Intact you can almost 100% guarantee is is EXACTLY the original.

 

Using your computer for the extraction and using a programme supporting SecureRIP allows (a) multiple reads and (b) to compare your rips to those achieved by other users. This will ensure the extraction is "the correct information".

 

As was said before, whether the Cyrus transport or a DVD ROM drive is best for real time playback (and many high end players do use common or garden DVD ROMs anyway) is totally irrelevant for the comparison you are making.

 

As someone suggested, try recording the extracted file (from DVD ROM) back to a CD-R and see how that sounds played in the Cyrus transport. That should indicate if the rip is good or not.

 

Eloise

 

PS. Yes I have recorded from a CD via SPDIF and while not using a Cyrus transport may have affected it, not only was ripping via DVD ROM more convenient it was a better recording. As for science vs objective testing: it is scientific fact that a computer DVD ROM drive can extract the information stored on a CD with 100% accuracy. Everything else is about getting that audio data back out of the computer.

 

[blueixus]

This piece of software (PC only) does a simple thing, it checks the ripped file with the original and tells you if it is identical. It is what I rip my CDs with.

 

My understanding is that Cd players read in real time and therefore don't make corrections hence the need for huge engineering to ensure accuracy (I have owned many vaste Teac/Esoteric Cd players) whereas a computer drive does not usually work in a real time mode and therefore can re read bits.

 

Anyway my Panasonic Laptop that I use for ripping with dBpoweramp usually (9.5/10) produces perfect rips, on the odd occasion that is does not the culprit is usually (99/100) a dirty/damaged CD rather than the drive.This problem of dirty or damaged Cds had as much effect if not more on the Teac/Esoteric drives then my PC.

 

Given I can check the accuracy of my rips I will remain confident my computer rip is accurate and focus on the more important task of getting files out of the computer to the Dac.

 

Given this I cannot think of a reason why a 'CD' drive would or could be better than a computer drive than can check what it has done...

 

[anax69]

That you can't think of a reason shouldn't mean, as it does for some of your angry colleagues here, that you shouldn't run the tests suggested above. Do them (correctly) and then try to think of a reason for the results, which, I'm sure, will surprise you.

 

[leggoslave]

anax69 just out of curiosity what OSX playback software have you been using in your comparison tests?

 

[Audio_ELF]

Anax69

 

First off, no one has suggested the OP shouldn't try this for themselves. In my first post I suggested software required. Other people have suggested the cable needed. If you are happy doing it this way then I don't think anyone cares.

 

Having said that, I will repeat what I (and others have sai) which is that getting the "data" off a CD is not a difficult task for a computer and a CD-ROM / DVD-ROM drive should be able to do it perfectly. If it's not perfect then something is going wrong.

 

On the other hand, getting the best quality out of a computer is more difficult. The OPs comparisons were between CD replay on his Cyrus transport vs USB to the same DAC. He felt the computer replay was poor and was blaming the rips. All anyone has been doing is suggesting (educating maybe) to him the problem is more likely to be on playback than ripping.

 

And yes I gave tried recording CD via SPDIF. To my mind a waste of time with at best the same audio quality! I can't 100% remember but I think I tried with both Arcam DVD (playback comparable via analogue to £5-700 CDP at the time) and later a Denon DVD.

 

Eloise

 

[blueixus]

@anax69

 

I am trying to clarify exactly what you are driving at here, is it:

 

1) That a CD player will produce a more accurate rip, even though computer rips can be checked and verified for accuracy,here for example is the blurb from dBpoweramp CD Ripper:

 

"CD Ripper supports AccurateRip v2: over the years since AccurateRip's inception (8 years ago), AccurateRip has been universally praised as the first and foremost technique to ensure error free CD rips. AccurateRip can only function if the disc has been previously submitted to the database...Often discs have multiple pressings, AccurateRip v2 enables a rip to verify using a different pressing, thus expanding the database by a factor of 4 or more! In addition a new enhanced CRC has been introduced to ensure AccurateRip will continue being the standard-bearer of Ripping Perfection."

 

2) That a rip produced by a CD player will just sound better and that it's 'numeric correctness' to the original is not the key/only judgement of it's musicality.