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LPSU Choices?

the_doc735

By the_doc735
in Music Servers

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the_doc735

the_doc735

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Right, having considered the relevant replies in my last thread: at-what-cost-silence-ie-reduced-ripple, I cannot say I am swayed either way between ATX-PSU & LPSU, other than perhaps this:

 

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On 7/13/2018 at 12:17 PM, 4est said:

To sorta answer your question then, the importance is not just the 5mV or 10mV ripple in the power supply, but it's rejection of high frequency noise and its ability to respond to the instantaneous current changes of the powered devices. 

 

....so, I have made my own mind up to go with the LPSU shortly!

My question now therefore is: what internal/external choices and options do I have when using pre-assembled devices? i.e. I don't want to build PCB's myself etc.

 

My PC will soon consist of the following:

 

Asus (based) desktop PC:

Asus ROG strix z270g Intel lga 1151 + Intel® HD Integrated Graphics 630. + Intel Core i5-7500T 2.70GHz Quad Processor SR337 7th gen, socket 1151 35W CPU. Asus (SDRW-08U1MT) Ultra Slim DVD Re-Writer (with M-Disc). + Pink Faun i2s Bridge PCI-e (expansion/riser) Card. + Samsung 250GB 960 M.2 (2280) Evo PCIe 3.0 (x4) NVMe 3D V-NAND SSD MZ-V6E250BW (x2). + Patriot Viper 4 16GB Dual Ch. DDR4 3000MHz PC4-24000 DIMM PV416G300C6K. + Seasonic Prime Ultra ’80+’ Titanium 650 Watt ATX M-PSU + Streacom st-fc9b-opt-alpha PC Fanless Chassis.

 

....this (the above) is what the LPSU will be working with. The new power supply may or may not include the current 'Seasonic' as part of the new setup (bits added on).

 

....many thanks in advance for any plausible suggestions.

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the_doc735

the_doc735

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Switch-mode power supplies (SMPS) are in wall warts, external brick style power supplies, and all computers. The advantages of SMPS are that they are significantly smaller, significantly more efficient, operate with much less heat, and are significantly lower cost to manufacture. Smaller, cheaper, and more efficient...what's not to like?

The disadvantages of SMPS is they have significantly more noise than linear power supplies. The best SMPS have peak-to-peak ripple (noise) roughly equal to the most basic of linear power supplies. But ripple is not the only noise SMPS produce. They also radiate inductive noise that can be picked up by cables and components in close proximity. And they dump noise onto the common AC ground that pollutes the power of any component plugged into the same AC circuit.

 Also, when compared to high-performance linear power supplies, SMPS have very slow dynamic response. When reproducing music, slower power supplies sound awkward and less liquid, restrict dynamic passages, mask micro-details and micro-dynamics, and distort the time and tune.

All computer communication works on a system of checks and error correction (check sum). If a packet of data doesn’t pass the check, a new packet of data is sent to replace the original. The lower the power supply noise, the fewer bit read errors, the fewer errors to correct, and the greater the system resources.
When you free up system resources with a cleaner power supply a computer will perform as if it has a faster processor, faster storage drive, and more RAM. When a low-noise power supply is used with a computer-based music server or streamer the result is more liquid and articulate sound, combined with greater depth, detail, and dynamics. 

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the_doc735

the_doc735

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my new streamer build (pc) would require the following power circuits (inc. i2s card & optical drive):

 

+3.3v x5
+5.0v x8
+12.0v x8
-3.3v x0
-5.0v x1
-12.0v x1

....total = 23

would it be a good idea to use the seasonic SMPS with 23 of these kind of devices in a seperate external chassis: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-DC-Step-Up-Voltage-Regulator-buck-converter-module-12-32V-in-12-35V-out-uk/232797727727?hash=item3633d36bef%3Ag%3AowIAAOSwbEZbGWTE&_sacat=0&_nkw=Voltage+Regulators+12v+in+12v+out&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=m570.l1313

 

?   ...if not; why not. Wouldn't this give the desired linear effect?

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the_doc735

the_doc735

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10 hours ago, Tomslin said:

Hi,

 

Maybe you can get some tips from my discussion here:

 

http://jplay.eu/forum/index.php?/topic/1979-rebuild-and-improved-power-supply-for-a-singlepc/?hl=rebuild

 

But it was a long time ago and much has happened since, but still quite relevant.

 

Here is one thread I read at that time when I sought inspiration, thanks Nige

 

http://www.tirnahifi.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2832

 

 

 

 

hi,

 

I'll check them out!

Many thanks!

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the_doc735

the_doc735

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7 minutes ago, trung224 said:

The ebay link is a DC-Dc converter, which is an SMPS itself, so you will have no gain from using them with your Seasonic PSU.

 

The LT3045 module is great, but they are all current limited. Given your requirement is quite high power, and from what I see, you don't have good background on electrical domain, my advice for you is go search around and buy a pre-made product. It will be safer and more economical

 

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the_doc735

the_doc735

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3 minutes ago, trung224 said:

This module can only put out 1A, so with your requirement, it is not enough. 

OK cheers! not to worry!

 

there doesn't seem to be much choice so far with the LPSU out there, but I'll keep looking.

Wish I could find out the amperage for those circuits in the seasonic and the requirement of the Asus z270g?

 

best wishes.

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the_doc735

the_doc735

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4 hours ago, LTG2010 said:

You'll need less than half the rails you quoted most atx supplies have a single 12v, 5V & 3,3V which are split up to power the board and components. Its handy to have the extra 12V rail solely for the processor ( the 8 pin connector) seperate 5v rails for your ssd's and one for the optical drive, plus one for your 12S card. You are looking at 8 - 10 rails. Try Sean Jacobs at custom HiFi cables. He designs and make the supplies for Innuos. Or look at The linear solution. For a tighter budget HDplex will outperform your Seasonic. Its not just the measurements but choice of components, transformers, regulators, resistors, capacitors, etc have a sonic input HDplex use components chosen for audio. I think they have also started using LT3045's in their supplies, but you'll need to check that with them.

ok - very good advice, I'll investigate the possibilities and see what can be achieved, thank you! B.T.W. HDPlex don't currently have any european stock i.e. 0

 

best wishes.

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the_doc735

the_doc735

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On 7/16/2018 at 5:43 AM, sandyk said:

Hi Doc

 You do need  a Linear PSU that has noise levels WAY below that of a HDPlex for best results,  I have never made any DIY gear for profit! I only use my Oppo 103 as a transport . I can't presently afford an aftermarket Linear PSU. Unfortunately, I can't help you with advice about commercial products, as I use an internal SMPS. (not linear)...

Kind Regards

Alex

 

The HDPlex ripple goes down to 2mv? So, what exactly do I need then to improve the sound quality beyond SMPS if the 2mv ripple HDPlex is not good enough?

 

Kind Regards.

Doc.

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the_doc735

the_doc735

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1 hour ago, Tomslin said:

 

Hi,

Just like you I have been searching for really good power supplies for a long time.

Finally I run my entire computer setup with batteries. With the right configuration it’s superb for the sound. IMO it's better than any LPS on the market, but of course with other problems. I want to admit that is no solution for everyone.

In your case I would go with a HD-Plex. It's enough good compared to all ATXs. Try to forget about it with noise levels, ripple etc, there are always compromises somewhere.

 

 

thank you for your valued observations! Many thanks! Your right - I don't want to go down the battery route. However, many electronics DIY enthusiasts say that the problem is the standard computer (pc) mainboard itself, i.e. far too many switching devices for an audiophile product on the boards themselves, and the PC has to be ditched completely in favour of a dedicated hi-fi player unit. e.g. oppo.

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the_doc735

the_doc735

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On 7/17/2018 at 10:58 AM, Tomslin said:

Hi,

Maybe you can get some tips from my discussion here:

http://jplay.eu/forum/index.php?/topic/1979-rebuild-and-improved-power-supply-for-a-singlepc/?hl=rebuild

@Tomslin 

 

Just got this from Larry at HDPlex:

 

"Hi

I looked at his example and don't understand how PC power management chip on his motherboard can communicate with his PSU and function as it should during power on process. Without the control circuit from PSU to tell power management chip on the motherbord that PS ON is successful, the PC will just think it as a failed start and shut down again.
The PS-ON line needs to be at 5V when PC is off and will be lowered to 0V when Power ON is pushed.
All 12v 5V 3.3V needs to rise within 500ms of time.
So I think it is not possible without additional control circuit. In fact, the reality is more complex than time sequence and control.
You also need MSM chip to help the timing for certain motherboards..." 
 
I was thinking of the HDPlex 200W with 4 outputs, but Larry said it is not possible to do what you have done with only the 3.3/5/12v?
 
So I'm hoping you can throw some light on his email response (above) please?
 
Cheers!
 
2112053958_5wireATX.thumb.jpg.bd1286fccea2e138702c66b05c2d4292.jpg
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the_doc735

the_doc735

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7 hours ago, Tomslin said:

 

The answer is simple: I don’t use control circuits, because it’s not needed. That explanation is also found in the links I published earlier in my post above.

We don’t really talk about the same things here. To only power a motherboard it will be enough with these three power lines and CPU power. However, if you want to build a PSU that’s fully compatible with the ATX standard, you need control circuits as he stated.

Less complicated is better, provided that it works, of course. That rule I always try to follow.

thank you!

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the_doc735

the_doc735

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On 10/2/2018 at 3:47 PM, Tomslin said:

 

Indeed. It’s a very good DIY thread in this subject. I guess much inhold are a bit too basic for him, but anyway it provides many useful angles of view. And apparently he didn't know that it’s possible to start and power motherboards without control voltages.

May be this is what Larry was talking about?

"The Power Good Signal

In addition to supplying electrical power to run the system, the power supply ensures that the system does not run unless the voltages supplied are sufficient to operate the system properly. In other words, the power supply actually prevents the computer from starting up or operating until all the power supply voltages are within the proper ranges.

The power supply completes internal checks and tests before allowing the system to start. If the tests are successful, the power supply sends a special signal to the motherboard called Power_Good. This signal must be continuously present for the system to run. Therefore, when the AC voltage dips and the power supply can’t maintain outputs within regulation tolerance, the Power_Good signal is withdrawn (goes low) and forces the system to reset. The system does not restart until the Power_Good signal returns.

The Power_Good signal (sometimes called Power_OK or PWR_OK) is a +5 V (nominal) active high signal (with a variation from +2.4 V through +6.0 V generally being considered acceptable) that is supplied to the motherboard when the power supply has passed its internal self-tests and the output voltages have stabilized. This typically takes place anywhere from 100 ms to 500 ms (0.1–0.5 seconds) after you turn on the power supply switch. The power supply then sends the Power_Good signal to the motherboard, where the processor timer chip that controls the reset line to the processor receives it.

In the absence of Power_Good, the timer chip holds the reset line on the processor, which prevents the system from running under bad or unstable power conditions. When the timer chip receives the Power_Good signal, it releases the reset and the processor begins executing whatever code is at address FFFF0h (occupied by the motherboard ROM).

If the power supply can’t maintain proper outputs (such as when a brownout occurs), the Power_Good signal is withdrawn and the processor is automatically reset. When the power output returns to its proper levels, the power supply regenerates the Power_Good signal and the system again begins operation (as if you had just powered on). By withdrawing Power_Good before the output voltages fall out of regulation, the system never sees the bad power because it is stopped quickly (reset) rather than being allowed to operate using unstable or improper power levels, which can cause memory parity errors and other problems.

On pre-ATX systems, the Power_Good connection is made via connector P8-1 (P8 pin 1) from the power supply to the motherboard. ATX, BTX, and later systems use pin 8 of the 20/24-pin main power connector, which is usually a gray wire.

A properly designed power supply delays the arrival of the Power_Good signal until all the voltages stabilize upon turning on the system. Poorly designed power supplies, which are found in many low-cost systems, often do not delay the Power_Good signal properly and enable the processor to start too soon. (The normal Power_Good delay is 0.1–0.5 seconds.) Improper Power_Good timing also causes CMOS memory corruption in some systems.

Note: If you find that a system consistently fails to boot up properly the first time you turn on the switch, but that it subsequently boots up if you press the reset or Ctrl+Alt+Delete warm boot command, you likely have a problem with the Power_Good timing. You should install a new, higher-quality power supply and see whether that solves the problem.

Some cheaper power supplies do not have proper Power_Good circuitry and might just tie any +5 V line to that signal. Some motherboards are more sensitive to an improperly designed or improperly functioning Power_Good signal than others. Intermittent startup problems are often the result of improper Power_Good signal timing. A common example is when you replace a motherboard in a system and then find that the system intermittently fails to start properly when you turn on the power. This can be difficult to diagnose, especially for the inexperienced technician, because the problem appears to be caused by the new motherboard. Although it seems as though the new motherboard is defective, it usually turns out that the power supply is poorly designed. It either can’t produce stable enough power to properly operate the new board, or it has an improperly wired or timed Power_Good signal (which is more likely). In these situations, replacing the supply with a higher-quality unit, in addition to the new motherboard, is the proper solution."

 

Don't I need to worry about that in the 3.3/5/12v ONLY scenario? Doesn't it apply? Thanks!

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the_doc735

the_doc735

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7 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

You would connect the power good line to the 5V. This tricks the motherboard to thinkings its connected to an ATX supply, it should boot. Usually there is a short delay in the power good signal 200 - 500ms. If the motherboard does not boot the you can install a cheap delay timer off ebay or there are other methods. In most cases though it should boot.

You need 3 rails 3.3V, 5V and 12V plus your CPU rail 12V. The High current rail will be the CPU rail. The rest can be low current 1.5amp to 5 amp depends on your motherboard. Also you would run your SSD separately with its own 5V rail so ideally a supply with 5 rails.

thanks. I need to address this further with you later on if that's ok? take care.

would this be ok: this ?

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the_doc735

the_doc735

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13 hours ago, LTG2010 said:

I think I mentioned this supply somewhere earlier. It has 2 high quality LT3045 rails @ 2amps each. You can use 1 to power your SSD the second if you have a quality PCIE USB card or similar that can be powered externally. The 19V 10 amp rail can be used to power a HDplex DC to DC converter ( a high quality PICO ) for the 24 pin motherboard ATX connecter. The 12V - 10 amp rail to power the CPU seperately via the second ATX connector ( 4/6/8) pin.

My SSD is one of those M.2. samsung EVO things i.e. no typical SATA.

I have a PF i2s PCIe card that can be powered externally.

Isn't pico, SMPS though? That particular one comes in at 70mV ripple.

Yes the other 12v 10amp can be used for the 8 pin CPU mobo connector.

my PC has a maximum wattage of 63 W at boot up, i.e. that is the peak! ...then it settles back to around 33W when idle (no apps on!).
The HDPlex LPSU is rated at 200W so that should be fine, i.e. plenty of headroom overall.
However, in a certain TOMS HARDWARE quote it states that the usual requirement is: 2.0–4.0 amps  on the +5 V, rail.
So, when I adjust the variable  rail to 5v the requirement could be 2-4A !! (on that rail). The others look fine to me! However the HDPlex has a max. of 2 amps on that specific rail and may not be sufficient? Larry at HDPlex has offered me 12v + 12v at 10 amps each and 2 variable rails for the 3.3 & 5v respectively at a maximum of 2 amps each! He doesn't think it will work based on the TOMS HARDWARE quoted 'usual' requirements! 
That's:
ATX/24
3.3v
5v - 4amps! quoted by toms hardware (the HDPlex 200 only has 2 amps @ this rail).
12v
CPU/8 pin
12v
 
....the other 3 rails seem to be within tolerance.
 

MY HTPC:

MSI Z370i GAMING PRO CARBON AC mini-ITX + Intel® HD Integrated/embedded Graphics 630.

Intel Core i7 Coffee Lake 8700 SE Gen.8 2.9GHz LGA1151 TDP 35W CPU.

Pink Faun i2s Bridge PCI-e (expansion/riser) Card.

Samsung (only 250GB) 960 M.2 (2280) Evo PCIe 3.0 (x4) NVMe 3D V-NAND SSD MZ-V6E250BW (x1).

Patriot Viper 4 16GB Dual Ch. DDR4 3000MHz PC4-24000 DIMM PV416G300C6K.

Streacom st-fc9b-opt-alpha PC Fanless Chassis. 

 

I'm OK with GPU as I use the intel 630 embedded device because this PC is for audio/music only so I don't need the discreet GPU's. 

Peak wattage at boot up is 63W, then falls back to idle at 33W in total.

Currently using Seasonic Prime Ultra ’80+’ Titanium 650 Watt ATX M-PSU. But I want to try LPSU (s) without pico.

Like this: see pics, 

779245969_ArebuiltSinglePC3.thumb.jpg.a3dafcdb9f2e57be0f2fd807474b4c73.jpg

1735912299_ArebuiltSinglePC4.thumb.jpg.032c9fb968710c70f3fc219c6cb0abff.jpg

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