Suggestions for audio upgrade

[gmgraves]

7 hours ago, uyire said:

Hello,

 

My first post here, apologies for not doing a proper search before posting. 

 

I am looking for some suggestions to upgrade my audio listening experience. I have been hearing a lot about HD tracks and was wondering what are the most essential upgrades I must make to move from conventional to HD. I am comfortable spending up to $1000 but I can stretch it to $1500 if necessary. 

 

Here's my current setup.

 

 

HTPC

Klipsch RF-82 II Fronts

Infinity Primus PC350 Center

Onkyo HT-RC260

Sharp 4K TV

Chromecast / Windows 10 PC

Home Office:

Audioengine A5 2-way speakers

Audioengine A2+ (Not using at the moment)

Macbook Pro & Windows 10 PC

Philips 4K monitor

 

Thanks!

 

 

I am assuming that by 'HD tracks' you mean high definition audio as opposed to the online "store" that sells HD downloads of commercial recordings?  Basically there are a number of ways to go to make your system able to play HD. First you need a source (sources?). I'd start with a multi-format disc player. You want one that can play both video and music-only Blu-ray discs. It should also play SACDs DVD-A, as well as regular Red-Book CDs. I'd look at Oppo's offerings, But be aware that Sony, Denon, and others also make players that meet these criteria.

If you are planning to store downloaded music from the internet, you are going to need some kind of server software on the computer that you intend to use to hold that stored/downloaded music, and stream it to your two systems. and finally, since one of your two computer systems will certainly be hardwired via USB to one of your two audio systems, then you will need some kind of Wi-Fi or Ethernet connection to the other audio system. 

 

Here's what I have done. I have a Mac with a 1 terabyte drive in my office. All of my ripped CDs and downloaded HD material is stored on that computer using JRiver Media Center Software. Also running on that Mac is Logitech's Media Server Software. My Mac is connected to a Logitech Squeezebox Touch which shows all the music stored on my Mac in the form of a menu. The output of the Logitech advice connects directly to my Schiit Yggdrasil Digital to Analog Converter (DAC) the output of which feeds my amplifier. The Squeezebox Touch is, unfortunately, out of production but many are still available used on E-Bay. I say that it is unfortunate that the unit is out of production because it was probably the cheapest way to achieve connecting one's music library to one's stereo system. There are other, more modern ways such as the AURALiC Mini, but whatever you do, make sure you get an out-board DAC. The reason is because the DACs built-in to these server solutions, are often just bare minimum WRT SQ. But more importantly they usually will just work on the server client that they are part of. A stand-alone DAC with USB, Coaxial, and Toslink inputs will allow you to connect everything to the same decoder for uniform and consistent sound. If you go for a DAC that decodes DSD, it still won't play SACD so you need to use the Audio Output jacks on your disc player to play those directly to your amp. But still, you will need to connect the digital output of both the server client and the Disc player to your DAC.

I hope this will help you to get started. You will doubtless receive much more advice on the thread, and probably much of it will take issue with my advice. Well, such is the internet. My recommendations work for me and might set you in the right direction with at least some food for thought. Other will have good advice too. There are many paths to high definition audio, I hope you find one that works for you as well as mine works for me.   

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, uyire said:

 

Thanks for the detailed response. 

 

Any specific DAC or other accessory recommendation for my budget of $1500? I am considering spending my money on DAC / amp now and buying a disk or n/w media player later. Is it a bad idea? Anything other than DAC that can make the listening experience better on my Macbook Pro + AudioEngine speakers?

 

If the $1500 is for a DAC alone, order a Gungnir Multibit from Schiit Audio (http://www.schiit.com/products). When you go to their website select Gungnir from their product list and next to "model", click on the pop-up menu that says "Please Select" and click on Gungnir Multibit. It's $1249 which is several hundred under your $1500 Budget. Then go to AudioQuest and order a DragonFly Red for your office system!

[gmgraves]

13 hours ago, Mordikai said:

I really like the Emotiva DC-1- $500

next start saving for better speakers. 

I'm one of those people who believe it's 95% the speakers and the room, provided you have a decent recording to begin with.

 

No argument there. However, in keeping with that old computer adage: "Garbage in, Garbage out", You won't get what you pay for in even the best speakers unless you have an amplifier, preamp and signal sources that are up to the task. I've an audiophile friend who is, unfortunately for him, married. His wife won't let him spend ANY money on his hobby. So his brother gave him a pair of Martin Logan ElectroMotion ESL speakers and a pair of M-L Dynamo 500 subwoofers when he upgraded to a pair of M-L Impression ESL speakers and didn't need the ElectroMotion setup any more. All he had was an old Sony surround receiver (supposedly 125 WPC). Now I know that the least expensive ESLs that M-L sells are capable of excellent performance, especially when paired with the Dynamo 500 subwoofers (which go down to 29 Hz at -3 dB). Well, he was complaining that the speakers didn't sound as clean as they did in his brother's system (Classe amplification). So I took my Krell KAV-300i integrated amp over to his house one Sunday afternoon. 

We listened to the M-L speakers through the Sony for about a half an hour, then we swapped for my Krell. The instant the music started, it was as if we swapped out the speakers! Suddenly, they opened up, and became more dynamic and much cleaner sounding. With the Sony, the ESL panels seemed to have a "venetian blind" effect whereby if one moved one's head, the high frequencies would drop in and out like there vertical slats between the listener and the speakers. With the Krell, that was gone. The difference was astounding. To make sure that we weren't imaging anything, we swapped out the Sony for the Krell once more. Again, the soundstage collapsed, the midrange and highs became muddy and distorted sounding, and the venetian blind effect was back. No doubt about it, the Sony receiver's amps were not up to snuff. I hated to do it, but at the end of the day, I took my Krell home, sad in the knowledge, that my friend was going to have go back to listening to those fine speakers with that less than capable Sony receiver and that his mean old wife would never give him permission to buy better electronics (his wants are modest: a Schiit Saga and a Vidar. Only about $1K's worth of kit, but alas the money is earmarked for new curtains, and an unneeded kitchen and bathroom re-model). Well. it's his own fault. He was warned but he let his little head do his thinking for him and now he's stuck with the consequences! 

[gmgraves]

4 hours ago, Solstice380 said:

 

Hopefully, the little head is still satisfied.  That can make up for a lot.  ?

 

As a lifelong bachelor, And therefore a perennially happy man, I have never understood why a man would give-up his entire life for sex. I.E. why buy a candy store when the candy is free? I've had lots of married men as friends, and I have never met a one that I would have traded places with. If I were in any of those guy's shoes, I would either have long since committed suicide..... or murder! However, kudos to those of you who make it work, and double kudos to those married guys who are truly happy. People are different, so it can happen.... I guess!

[gmgraves]

3 hours ago, plissken said:

Do you have any size  or placement or other constraints? Your biggest upgrade by far will be in speakers. 

 

Barring any constraints:

 

BMR Philharonitor @ $1350

 

Behringer Uphoria UMC204HD @ $79 (easily runs with $300-$400 boutique DACS) and it has Headphone out.

 

Emotiva BasX A-150 @ $299

 

Leaves enough for shipping to bring you in @ $2000 or under. 

While I agree with you that the Behringer UMC204HD is probably a bargain (I have bought lots of Behringer gear over the years, and in fact my main mixer is a Behringer. I defy anyone to be able to tell my recordings using Behringer gear from recordings made with far more expensive kit. The stuff is great value for money), but I must say that it is also, primarily an Analog-to-Digital Converter (ADC) rather than a Digital-to-Analog Converter (DAC) and I really don't think that's anything that our OP would have any interest in (yes, I know it has a DAC function for monitoring, but it is a complicated device just to use for a USB-only DAC). There are lots of cheap DACs available on E-Bay and Amazon that will do ONLY D-to-A for the same money.

[gmgraves]

6 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

To each their own. Let me know when you want to blind audition the UMC204HD vs some other new $300-400 boutique DAC blinded with them level matched. 

 

Given the budget of the OP an extra $300 spent on speakers will have an appreciable effect on SQ. 

 

And if the OP doesn't want the Behringer get the Presonus 2|6 for $199. 

 

That's not the point. The point is that the Behringer UMC204HD is NOT A DAC! At least not primarily. Why encumber the OP with capability and complexity that he won't use while restricting him to USB only? If you're gonna restrict the guy to a USB-only DAC, why did you not suggest something useful to the OP like an AudioQuest DragonFly? 

 

And I agree that any money spent of speakers is money well spent. Good speakers will only get better as one improves that rest of one's system! 

[gmgraves]

19 hours ago, plissken said:

 

The Behringer kills the Dragonfly it in the utility department and I doubt anyone here, blind, could tell the difference in the SQ department. So that's where I'm coming from. 

 

HP output

4 analog out

TRS and RCA I/O

 

The UMC204HD is most certainly a DAC. It also has ADC and HeadPhone capabilities. I'm using it right now for my office setup. I have two cables: USB and HP.  You plug it in, you install the drivers, you connect the L/R outs to your amp and away you go. The rest of the stuff? If you don't need it you don't use it. 

 

Try this with the DragonFly:

 

Take the main outs on the Behringer and feed your L/R into your monitors. Then take the additional playback outputs and feed a pair of subs that have their own DSP. 

 

The OP want's the best possible SQ for the budget. I think  my approach nets him that plus the ability to add to the setup down the road in form of additional sound reinforcement in the lowest octaves. Heck the 204HD even has better Jitter performance than the popular iFi that people like here. 

 

Mr. Plissken, I still don't think you get what I'm trying to get across, here. The OP obviously doesn't need to: "try this with a DragonFly"! He just want's a DAC. And I mentioned the DragonFly only as a more practical USB-to-audio-only alternative to the Behringer. Frankly, since the OP is just getting started in digital audio, he doesn't know what he's going to need in even the short-term future. I wouldn't suggest a solution to him that restricted him only to USB. He's certainly going to need USB, but he's also possibly going to need Toslink S/PDIF as well as Coaxial S/PDIF. Your Behringer, while probably a fine solution for someone who want's to record themselves playing a midi instrument and singing, but I doubt that's what the OP wants to do. If it were, I suspect he'd have mentioned it. Now I understand where you're coming from, and I can see where the gadgeteer in you (or me) would find the UMC204HD attractive (and I do), but I just don't feel it's anywhere near the best solution for our OP.  

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, uyire said:

Based on the suggestions here, I am considering these options. Please let me know if this looks okay: I will be using this setup from my office MacBook pro. 

 

1) BMR philharmonitor $1350

 

2) Schiit BiFrost($399), BiFrost Multi bit ($599),  Emotiva X1DC($499)

 

3) Emotiva BasX A150 $229. Any other suggestions for amps? Do I need it at all? Looks like for BMR I will need it. 

 

Also considering KES LF50W $2200

 

I don't have any knowledge on the specs. Could someone help me understand this? BMR spec says this:

 

Sensitivity

84.5 dB (dB/2.83v/1M)

I also came across this: is BMR inefficient? 

 

https://www.lifewire.com/amp-power-speaker-efficiency-3135077

 

Speakers range in efficiency or sensitivity from about 85dB (very inefficient) up to 105dB (very efficient). As a comparison, a speaker with 85 dB efficiency rating will take twice the amplifier power to reach the same volume as a speaker with 88 dB efficiency. Similarly, a speaker with an 88 dB efficiency rating will require ten times more power than a speaker with a 98 dB efficiency rating to play at the same level

 

Easy. The less efficient the speaker (like the 84.5 dB/1 Watt that you posted) the more minimum power it takes to operate them effectively. The BMRs are VERY inefficient and need lots of power. I don't know how the Philhamonitors sound, I've never heard them, but their specs are impressive (30Hz-20KHz ±2 dB ), especially the frequency response. If they can really do that (they measured that response in anechoic chamber, so all bets are off in a real room) then they are some speaker. But they're going to need at least 100 Watts (RMS) per channel for an amplifier and I would recommend 150!

[gmgraves]

20 hours ago, plissken said:

 

Is this some sort of joke on your part?

 

The OP listed his sources: 1. PC and 1 Mac. Also we are at COMPUTERAUDIOPHILE where 99% of connectivity is going to be USB. The Behringer provides much more flexibility than the AQ DF. It is what it is.

 

Didn't know the Dragon Fly took other input sources than USB.  Again you let me know when you want to put some 24/192 material through the DF and UMC204HD blinded.

 

C'mon, try reading for content!  I said that the DragonFly is a better solution for the OP than the Behringer IF WE ARE RESTRICTING HIM to USB. I never said nor intimated that the DragonFly was anything other than USB. Also, what about if he decides to stream, via WiFi to his main stereo from one of his desktops using server software and a server client such as an Auralic Mini or some other server client? They don't generally output USB. Neither do "universal" disk players (Blu-Ray, SACD, DVD, CD) such as those from Oppo, Sony, and Marantz. The OP also stated that he will be in the market for one of those, soon.

 

There is no way to justify recommending a device to this OP that has the following characteristics: 1) Primarily a recording ADC with DAC capability only as an adjunct to the ADC capability to allow playback of what was just recorded. 2) A feature set aimed at amateur recording, not audiophile listening. 3) Only a USB interface and no S/PDIF, meaning it cannot be used with a disk player, an audio server client or a local storage NAS solution.

 

Finally, 24/192, like DSD, is not mainstream now, nor is it likely to be so in the near future. Having recorded in both 24/96 and 24/192 simultaneously (as well as DSD), I can tell you that 192 is overkill. There is simply no reason for it. All it does is eat-up more storage and fill it with nothing as there is no musical content to the signal above the mid 30KHz region, and even then, we aren't recording for dogs, we're recording for humans. Even the keenest hearing humans (pre-pubescent girl children) can't hear above about 24 KHz. And most of us aging audiophiles are lucky if we can still hear 15 KHz! 24/96 is what the lion's share of digital audio is or is going to be. Even SACD, which I like very much, will eventually die out -  sorry to say. 

[gmgraves]

22 hours ago, Mordikai said:

Dennis Murphy the designer of the Philhamonitors has a great reputation so I trust the claims. As far as amplification goes you can get a very fine 150 watts with the TI TPA3255 and a Meanwell SMPS for less than $150 if you don't mind a little diy. I'm listening to this amp now and can't say I notice any difference between this and the NCore.

 

I'm primarily an ESL guy (Martin-Logans and Sound-Lab with an occasional detour into Isodynamic land [Magnepan]) but with a frequency response as flat as the Philhamonitors' graphs show it, they have to sound spectacular.

[gmgraves]

1 minute ago, plissken said:

 

The UMC204HD has TRS (analog) inputs for stereo. 

 

I would encourage the OP to get a $30 BR drive for his PC and still output over USB. 

 

Fine. USB is by far the worst sounding and most difficult of all the digital audio interfaces. So, by all means encourage folks to do that.

Yes, the UMC204HD does have analog inputs (designed primarily for microphones) but the device does allow them to be padded down for line-level inputs. It also will supply 48 Volts phantom power for condenser microphones and has inputs/outputs to be inserted into a MIDI bus, but I'm at a loss to see how any of these fine features will benefit our OP. Look, Plisskin, We're never going to agree that the UMC204HD is a correct solution for a fellow audiophile who is just starting to dip his toes into the waters of digital audio. Why don't we just agree to disagree on this issue before it turns into a full-blown and ultimately useless feud? We agree on so many things, and I'd love to discuss them with you on another thread. Cheers

[gmgraves]

18 hours ago, Mordikai said:

Yeah- to each his own. I've heard some of the bigger Magnepans and thought they were awesome!! I'm a diyer and standard drivers are easier to work with, I'm also a little obsessed so I'm constantly changing my system up. I do have some of the big B&G planars that I'm gonna do something with soon though.

 

I was a DIYer when I was a teen (had to be, no money!). and I went through the obsessive-compulsive stage where I constantly upgraded when I finished college and went out on my own. I don't do that so much anymore. I think the main reason is because I became an equipment reviewer. I'm always getting new stuff to play with. Sure it has to go back when the review period is over, but there's always something new coming in the front door to replace it. The best part is that I get the joy of playing with new equipment and I don't have to buy it (unless I find that I like it so much that I just have to have it -that doesn't happen that often). 

I've often wondered about those B&G panels ever sense I first saw them in the Parts Express catalog. They look as if they might make the basis for a really good dipole hybrid system.

 

For the last 10-or-so years, I've had a pair of Martin-Logan Vistas, and they are so good, that I have found no compunction to change them. They sound magnificent! Overall frequency response, dispersion, imaging, stereo soundstage, dynamic contrasts - everything. They just do it! I love that listeners can sit anywhere in the room and get a really good stereo image due to the curvature of the panels. I reviewed a flat-panel ESL system from Innersound (Roger Sanders former company) once,  and found that that they were strictly a one-listener system, and that listener had to sit with his/her head in a vice in order to remain in the "sweet spot" if you moved your head but one iota, the entire sound field collapsed. The highs went away, the imaging disappeared, etc. Sure when you were in the right spot, they sounded magnificent, but were totally impractical due to their dispersion, or rather lack of it.