Stradivarius vs modern violins again

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1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

 

I once heard a live demonstration of the differences between a Stad, and Amati, and a Guarneri. The occasion was this Hi-Fi shop that I occasionally visited. One of the regulars was a prodigy violins (I would guess his age to be about 16). I was there one Saturday when he showed up with three violins that had been loaned to him by wealthy patrons. He stood in the middle of listening one of the rooms and played a section of the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto #1 on each. This was a great test because (A) he played the same section of the work each time and (B) there was no electronics between the violins and my ears. The result was that the Strad sound rich and sonorous, the Amati was lighter sounding and Guarneri was actually a bit thin and screechy sounding. We all agreed that the Strad sounded the best.

This is, I believe, performer dependent -- having had the experience of listening up close with a very accomplished violinist who uses one "on loan". The importance of bows should not be underestimated. 

I don't think there are absolute "one better than other" rather all depends on the hands of the individual.

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1 minute ago, gmgraves said:

 

The difference, of course, is that the "sound" of the violin isn't the only criterion that the musician uses to choose his/her instrument. It's the way the instrument responds to the player's touch that is just as important to the musician a sit the instrument's sound. There is nothing akin to that (as far as I know) in the audiophile's world.

Yes absolutely. I recently sat in on a comparison of bows. I closed my eyes to listen in a "blinded" fashion. The musicians played a few notes and decided much about how the strings resonated from a tactile (and of course also audible) perspective.

 

FWIW there is a general dismissal of carbon fiber bows and instruments, but there are good "plastic" bows that are particularly favored for outdoor concerts -- the bow was considered pretty good for the $1-2K range, I didn't ask what type of "plastic" these bows are made of ... I was happy to be a close observer  (most of these bows were $60K - $100+K)

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7 hours ago, esldude said:

 

https://www.nature.com/news/science-can-tell-us-only-so-much-about-stradivarius-violins-1.21954

 

It doesn't hurt the value to me of the historical instruments which were/are the yardstick of measurement.  What is wrong with it if not really true vs quality new instruments is that aspiring musicians think they are handicapped by needing $1 million plus violins when some rather affordable ones are as good, nearly as good or better.  It should be big news when a $5k violin simply makes it difficult to distinguish by experts even if by some measure it isn't quite the equivalent. 

 

 

 

Ha ha, I don't think you need to worry about aspiring musicians access to Strads

 

There is a great deal of competition in the $3-5K range. As the price gets higher, there is an expectation that several instruments will be compared over a week or two.

 

The Nature articles discusses, as is common sense, that ultimately the instrument is not "blind" to the musician, and musicians get to know their specific instruments rather well. It should be noted that among Strad, there are considerable individual differences and the instruments are named. At the point where one typically gets access to one of these instruments, the performer would be already considered rather expert and able to perform well on a range of instruments. $5k not out of the question, but I know accomplished professional performers who play with $10-20K violins ... or $50-100K ... or $100-200K ... like everything.

 

In the lower end, expect considerable variability among (at least wooden) instruments and highly selected samples can be quite good ... probably like clock oscillators

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8 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

 

That's the paradox here, isn't it? To wit; cheap violins don't "handle" very well. They are difficult to finger, requiring undue finger pressure and they do not respond to the bow very well. This makes it so difficult and unpleasant to try to play that often students who think that they would like to learn the violin get discouraged and give up. ...

 

There is more variability in the intro student instruments. My daughter got very lucky with her viola which started as a new, presumably Chinese rental. We "upgraded" to a larger instrument ~$3k or so, still a presumably Chinese instrument (house brand) and offered to upgrade again but she couldn't find anything she liked until after her college tryout when we went with a (new) Matsuda. She fell in love instantly (though we tried several in the same range). For the price, the $3k instrument is terrific (and broken in!  ) and still get's use for outdoor concerts.

 

Having sat through auditions of multiple similar instruments, it takes a bit of work, but good ones can be found...

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I preferred #1, #3, #5 (and would have liked to hear these side by side) ... I did not care for the high end of #2 (slightly grainy) and the high end of #6 was significantly lacking.

 

I should say that the carbon fiber fiddles I've heard have sounded sonorous and resonant but I also have found the high end grainy.

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6 minutes ago, STC said:

 

 

One thing is certain. I don't listen as critical as you guys do. I think with different tracks or headphones, my preference would change. The saddest part is I find all 6 sounded good enough musically, including the cheap number 6. I have never judged sound in isolation. I look for the overall balance. 

There very well may be a component of training -- that said I wouldn't ever make a  purchase based on a recording. I wouldn't be surprised if an FFT showed a measurable reduction in the upper octaves/harmonics for #6 however. #2 might settle down very nicely with a little time (yes instruments are broken in  

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Pretty sure that's : 

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9 hours ago, gmgraves said:

 

It would be very nice to be able to play classical guitar (like the other John Williams) but I have less than no interest in  electric guitars. But alas, I took up french horn instead (I was no good at that either).

You claim to be single because of your choices but just consider that the french horn might be a factor... if you are really looking for "free" women, the electric guitar is quite effective... that said, the first violins have the entire second violin and viola sections to pick from