UltraCap™ LPS-1 Troubleshooting, system grounding, etc.

[Superdad]

Due to the way the forum works, this first post starting this thread will appear below all the posts I am about to move in here from the "LPS-1 Listening Impressions" thread. But I'm sure you all got the idea already.

 

Thanks,

 

-Alex C.

[Superdad]

Thank you, sure a lot to read

 

Only if you thing your system has ground noise issues (which will be found to be unrelated to the LPS-1 really). Otherwise you can just skip this thread and enjoy some music!

[Superdad]

As is the nature of the forum, this "UltraCap LPS-1 Troubleshooting" thread has wandered off into pages of discussions of AC mains isolation transformers. In the interest of new LPS-1 users who might come to this thread looking for assistance, I have moved all the posts about isolation transformers into a new thread here.

 

I tried to put it into the CA General Forum, but the site does not allow me to move post into a forum that for which I don't have moderation privileges.

 

You can see I left a few posts (mostly John's) on the topic above, just for interest/education, but for continuity those were also copied into the new thread.

 

Thanks for understanding and for helping to keep this thread on topic. Love the interesting conversations about isolation transformers, but a few of these LPS-1 threads are "client communication/marketing/help tools" that need to stay close to the topic.

 

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

John:

Thanks for bring clarity (as usual) to the big picture.

I quoted/pasted your entire above post into the other active thread on isolation transformers, so any discussion of same can continue over there.

 

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

I've been running my MicroRendu with an iFi PS into a Marantz SA8005 USB-DAC with no problems. Just received my UltraCap PS and while I've been enjoying the sound, I 've been experiencing annoying random dropouts. These occur every 30 seconds to a minute or so. I unplugged the PS from my power conditioner and went straight into the wall. The problem persists. I have the UltraCap set to 7v output into the MR. This problem did not occur with the iFi. Any suggestions welcome.

 

Hi:

 

Sorry to hear you are experiencing difficulty. Please position the LPS-1 so that its back faces you so you can observe the status LED indicator. Does it at any time during operation (after boot up when you are playing music) turn red? If not, then the cause of the problem is not the LPS-1.

 

The only thing that will cause the LED to go red—and the output voltage to drop to zero while the LPS-1 continuously checks the load status (see the instruction booklet)—is if the output load (in your case the combination of the microRendu and the Marantz DAC the mR is providing 5V to) exceeds about 1.1 amp.

 

Please retest and let us know what you observe.

 

Thanks,

 

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

Hi Alex,

 

I was having problems with my microRendu running with the LPS-1 (hangups, freezes,dropouts) so I checked the red light and it would blink occasionally so I went back to my CIAudio 9V linear and all that stopped. I was running a BelCanto U-Link from the microRendu so I guess the combo would draw too much under any heavy software operation on the microRendu. I could not update or reboot among other things.

 

 

Hi Bob:

 

Well any properly-speced USB device should never draw more than 500mA from the VBUS.

So for a microRendu>BelCanto uLink combo to overdraw (more than 1.1A) an LPS-1 to get it to shut off, the uLink would need to be drawing pretty much the full 500mA (0.5A) ad the microRendu would have to be really working.

What software mode do you use the microRendu in? I know it does not work/draw very hard as an NAA; I don't know about the other modes, but we have not had other reports of this.

 

And to be clear, the LPS-1 will not just flash a red light without actually turning off the voltage. As indicated in the User Guide:

Flashing red (five red pulses, then a brief pulse of green) means that your connected device is drawing more than a continuous 1.1 amps. The LPS-1 will shut off its output voltage and then return to solid green once the load is reduced.

 

Let us know if you need any additional assistance. I am always here to help!

[Superdad]

I thought it might be a very short power drop off as the unit did stay online but the software became unusable and even though the unit was powered it became unreachable on sonicOrbiter so I had to physically disconnect it and repower.

 

I decided to check the LPS-1 light on a hunch and as the unit is some distance from the computer I use to control it, I noticed that the light would be red or amber or green by the time I could get to it.

 

Two thoughts Bob:

a) You really need to face the LPS-1 so that you can see the LED. There really is not such thing as a "short power drop off" for the LPS-1. If overcurrent occurs, the output will drop (okay, it does not drop to zero instantly), the LED will flash red for about 4 seconds, then green to retry/test for if the load has gone down to acceptable level. It will then stay green and output full voltage if the conditions are okay. At no time during that process will the LED turn amber as you report. If that is happening, then it means your LPS-1 is going through a full reboot cycle--perhaps if the charging supply is not up to the task.

 

b) Based on your report, it is quite possible that your CIAudio 9V supply is not up to the task. John has explained elsewhere that the sort of load the LPS-1 represents to its charging supply is variable and demanding. We do not guarantee function of the unit with third-party supplies, and the only way to properly diagnose what is going on is for you to use our supplied Mean Well 7.5V/2.93A/22W unit and to report accurately on the LED indication during operation.

 

All the best,

 

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

It seems to me that the amperages posted by Alex/John are not strictly true in all circumstances - either that or the Chinese LPS's that I bought can't do anywhere near what they were specified.

 

Yes, it is the latter, not the former. I mean, who ya' gonna' trust?!

[Superdad]

Nope, I was aware of that supply being insufficient. This is the one: ZEROZONE SUPER-PSU 30VA DC9V 2.7A Linear Power supply LPS for Audio Sources | eBay

 

Well I have an accurate (to 1mv/1mA) digital DC load machine that can test up to 80V/15A. Send me that supply and I'll tell you what it is actually capable of. I'll even take a read-out photo for you.

 

Want to see what OUR supplies really put out? Here are shots of an LPS-1 putting out 7V at over 1.2 amps (yeah, a particularly good sample) and a JS-2 cranking 7.1 amps at 12V and almost 8.4 amps at 9V!

(a bit of voltage droop showing for the JS-2 as my test lead is long piece of 18AWG, and this is really at the outer limits of what people use that supply for)

 

 

[Superdad]

Bottom-line, a 9V supply that will pass even just 2A is pretty massive, much than what I see in the one you got.

 

I don't know Greg, did you see my pick of a JS-2 cranking out over 8A at 9V? And it was running cool. Just a bit of UpTone magic...

 

 

But watch it guys or I'll move these posts over to the Discussions of Pointless Alternate LPS-1 Charging Supplies thread.

[Superdad]

While I know you claim the charging supply doesn't matter at all, my experience is different. I have no clear indication that the output from LPS-1 is less than clean as a whistle. However, charging with the Meanwell or other cheap SMPS definitely produces significant noise in the charging circuits of the LPS-1 that is induced into my system somehow. This is the reason I sought a cheap LPS solution to charge them. I have even heard this with my own ears coming from the chassis itself of the LPS-1. The clear sound of charging supercaps, and an audible click of the relay or whatever other mechanism switching between supercap banks.

 

 

I'm very glad you enjoy the LPS-1, but on this topic--at least how you put it--we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

First of, there is absolutely no "click" coming from the LPS-1 ever. There are no relays in it. I sit in a very quiet room half my days testing the boards at full load, watching their internal LEDs switch banks 18-inches from my face and ears. No clicks.

 

Secondly, our supplied SMPS has just 80mV of output noise/ripple on its DC, and with the topology of the LPS-1 this can in no way whatsoever effect its charging circuit or the output.

 

If people have a problem with SMPS units, it is on the AC side of them, but even that is minimal as the main evil an an SMPS is its leakage current--which is blocked/ignored by the LPS-1.

 

About the ONLY plausible issue we have come across is that the present (Level VI) version of the Mean Well we ship has a 16AWG parallel "zip" wire DC cable as opposed to the Level V ones we used to get which had 16AWG coax. I think John said that the pattern of charging draw from the LPS-1 might make it so that you don't want that DC zip cable laying across your analog cables. So if you here something weird in your system when using our supplied SMPS, maybe try positioning the DC cable differently.

 

Perhaps John will chime in at some point with a more technical perspective.

[Superdad]

It's not a loud click or anything, but with my head within about 12 inches of the unit, it can be heard. And with ear up to the unit, I can hear the supercaps charging.

 

Very sorry to offend. Perhaps you should return your unit to us for testing.

 

I just took a unit off the shelf (ALL orders are shipping tomorrow, 5 days ahead of schedule!), and in a dead silent room, plugged a Mean Well SMPS into it and pressed the LPS-1 right up to my ear (note to self, wipe my skin oils off before shipping that one ).

I hear absolutely nothing. Can you estimate what frequency you hear with the charging? And indeed I would be VERY curious to see/hear a demonstration of any bank switching "click."

 

Does anyone else hear any clicking or charging noises--even up close? I genuinely wish to know?

 

Thanks,

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

However, the clicking sound was there for sure, and actually with both the Meanwell and the HDPlex as feeders.

 

I admit to being baffled. There is not a single relay or switch inside the LPS-1, so I can't imagine what is making the sound you are hearing. Does it occur at a regular interval? I suppose if the case warms up it could make a small sound as expansion and contraction of the aluminum end panels takes place. I have a big power amp that does that when the air conditioning in my studio is on.

 

Please keep us posted.

[Superdad]

Will post that video if I can this evening and send you a link.

 

Okay, that will be fine. But I am not interested in seeing a video of an inadequate PS failing to properly "energize" an LPS-1. John has previously explained what happens during the charging cycles and why the current demand on a not-up-to-the task feeder supply cascades until both units give up.

 

Thanks,

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

When did I say I took a video of the Chinese PS? I think I pretty clearly indicated that last night I was reproducing the effect with Meanwell and HDPlex, and that's what I recorded. The Chinese PS issues were weeks ago, and they have not been used to feed the LPS-1's since then.

 

Sorry, I misunderstood. I assumed that the only thing to "look at" in a video would be a voltage display going down on the Chinese PS units you were speaking about in the same paragraph.

 

And if your LPS-1 is making regular interval "clicking" sounds, then it is defective and I want to see it back.

[Superdad]

When did I say I took a video of the Chinese PS? I think I pretty clearly indicated that last night I was reproducing the effect with Meanwell and HDPlex, and that's what I recorded. The Chinese PS issues were weeks ago, and they have not been used to feed the LPS-1's since then.

 

Sorry, I misunderstood. I assumed that the only thing to "look at" in a video would be a voltage display going down on the Chinese PS units you were speaking about in the same paragraph.

 

And if your LPS-1 is making regular interval "clicking" sounds, then it is defective and I want to see it back.

[Superdad]

Ok, well first you denied that clicking was possible. Then you said you'd appreciate documented evidence. So, I said I'd record and post. Now you just want me to return the unit. Alright, you'll need to send me the correct address in that case.

 

I seem to have gotten you upset, and for that I am sincerely sorry. Certainly not my intent. Just trying to help get to the bottom of something (mechanical clicking) which only you have reported, and which I have attempted in vain to reproduce.

(Under full load--so that bank switching occurs often--with my ear less than 1/2" away from the unit in my dead quiet studio, with all hard drives off, I hear absolutely nothing.)

 

Thus, I can only conclude that you have the first (out of 750 shipped) defective unit.

 

Complete customer satisfaction is the only thing that matters to me. It is how I built the business with not taking out a single advertisement or making any snake-oil claims.

 

If you are anything less than thrilled with the performance of your UltraCap LPS-1 unit, please allow me to refund your purchase in full. Life is just too short to have things around that make you unhappy. Please contact me offline via the Contact page on our web site.

 

-----------

 

Separately, looking back at a post you made about your system shortly after you received your LPS-1, it is clear that yours is an unusual situation, with amps that are very sensitive to interference, and very high sensitivity speakers. So extreme care must be taken in your system connections and power.

 

Keep in mind, I'm running all DHT, all SET equipment in both DAC and amp here. These tubes are definitely sensitive to noise. And I'm running them on 96dB speakers. I suspect my amp and/or DAC are not filtering this noise in their power supplies and/or it's somehow infecting the DHT tubes. They do suffer from some minor 60hz hum, inherent to a DHT's design. And this digital noise is only audible from a few feet away - barely audible from listening chair. But it's definitely there, and that's the opposite of the intent of inserting these LPS-1's in the system. Still really clean and clear performance from them, but there's this other noise present for sure. I would assume most systems will not have the combination of elements I'm dealing with here - high efficiency speakers, DHT DAC and amp.

 

I will also say that a while back when I first bought my HDPlex, I made some posts here on CA asking for help with some digital packet noise audible through my speakers - when powering the microRendu. The solution was to unplug one of the microUSB 5V supplies inside the HDPlex. But this speaks to some kind of grounding issue, that was finding its way into my system and hearing noise through the speakers. So, I'm not convinced I don't also have a grounding issue with my system.

 

 

Thanks and have a great weekend,

 

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

The clicks are coming from the actual LPS-1 boxes/chassis. Right now, I have to have my ear within a few inches of the chassis to hear them. And, yes, they vary in time between clicks depending on load. Yesterday, I used a stopwatch. 5 seconds for the FMC, with LPS-1 on 5V setting, and FMC pulling about 1A. 7 seconds when I put the LPS-1 to 7V mode, powering the same FMC. Around 30 seconds spacing when there is no load on the LPS-1.

 

The sound of the click itself isn't so much of a very clean and precise "click", it's more of a quiet "clunk" or "thunk". And I also noticed that when the device goes from its initial charge-up sequence and transitions to providing power to the device, there's a very quick triple-"clunk" as it engages the power.

 

Hi Ben:

 

Have you mailed the units back to us yet? Please be sure to include the Mean Well charging supplies so that I can inspect those too. As mentioned in e-mail, I could not hear the clicks in the YouTube video link you posted--even with headphones and the volume turned way up. Could be the nasty cold I've had since Thursday--hard to hear much of anything, which is too bad as I was planning some end of year listening/upgrading sessions (a Holo Spring Level 3 DAC gets delivered Wednesday!).

 

I am going to be very interested in examining your units since you say they make those sounds both under load and not under load. And yet the units we have here and those with others in the field don't exhibit the problem. So I do expect there is some sort of defect.

 

We'll continue this discussion off-line, and after I can test your units here I'll report back the findings.

 

Thanks,

 

--Alex C.

 

P.S. One can clearly see that John and I do not coordinate our postings! Bizarre that we both happened to be writing replies at the exact same time. He must be writing at lunchtime from the chip company he is retiring from on Wednesday--after 33 years of crazy-advanced, bowels-of-the-chip engineering. This audio stuff--other than when he makes it really complicated such as with the LPS-1--must be like kindergarten for him in comparison. Though sound and perception is a tricky affair...

[Superdad]

Hi John, thanks for the message. The clicks are coming from the actual LPS-1 boxes/chassis. Right now, I have to have my ear within a few inches of the chassis to hear them.

 

Hi Ben:

 

Received your package with your two LPS-1 units and the Chinese ZeroZone 9V/2.7A LPS.

 

To hear any clicks coming from your LPS-1 boxes I had to turn off my already very quiet fanless hard drives in my extremely quiet room, and stack one LPS-1 on top the the other. With my ear 1/2-inch from the chassis, near the front, I could hear the faintest of ticks at regular intervals (I used a REGEN feeding an iFi micro iDSD to load it so it would switch banks)--if I held my breath! My wristwatch held at twice the distance (1-inch) ticks louder than what I can hear from the LPS-1. I think John said it could be the inductor.

 

So you definitely got me: The LPS-1 is NOT 100% silent. But even a very quiet relay would be at least 5 times louder.

 

Your units test fine in every respect.

 

As for the supposed 9V/2.7A Chinese power supply: I am afraid you got taken. While it looks nice, it performs miserably. Regulation is terrible, and it does not come anywhere close to delivering its rated power. Here is the photo proof:

 

 

 

As you can see, at 2.0A it was putting out less than 7.7V; at 2.5A you get less than 5.6V; and at 3A (I thought that's what it was rated at until I just looked it up with your eBay link) it pretty well gives up and outputs 3.6V.

 

Sadly, we do see this with a lot of the $80-200 LPS units coming out of China.

 

I'll get in touch with you via private e-mail and will ship everything back to you this coming week.

 

Have a great holiday weekend!

 

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

Thanks again for the quality products and service.

 

Happy New Year Ben. As my junior high shop teacher used to tell me: You are a gentlemen and a scholar--and there aren't many of us left!

[Superdad]

I have been enjoying my LPS- 1 for a little less than 2 months and I only plugged it to my JS-2 for energizing. I heard absolutely zero noise in my speakers, but your post made me curious so I disconnected it from the JS-2 and looked for the meanwell charger to try. With some luck I found it and guess what... I heard a very slight buzzing noise in my tweeters but you have to get your ears to like 20 cm to hear it. With the JS-2 absolutely nothing. I have Naim btw.

Now back to the JS-2 and LpS-1 combination and the joy of listening to music.

 

Hi Moussa:

 

As I think John mentioned upthread, what you experienced can only be from the input/charging side of the setup--most likely some radiation from the unshieled DC cable from the Mean Well to the LPS-1. Be sure that cable is not near any analog interconnects. The DC cables off the now unavailable earlier Mean Well supplies--the ones that shipped with the first 2,000 REGENs--were 16awg coax, as opposed to 16awg parallel "zip" cord. I wonder if those had less of a stray field.

 

In any case, the output of the LPS-1 is absolutely not effected by choice of "energizing"/charging supply. So what you and Ben--with his admittedly very sensitive electronics paired with high efficiency speakers--have experienced is about the only instance of reported downside to use of our supplied SMPS to power the fully isolated UltraCap LPS-1.

 

Regards,

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

You need to make serial connections. You have made a parallel connection.

 

You have three devices, two lps-1s and one chord Hugo. You need one wire between each making a triangle. Connect the hugos red + terminal to the red + terminal of one lps-1. Connect the hugos black - terminal to the black - terminal to the second lps-1. Connect the two lps-1s together using the remaining unused terminals, black to red.

 

Larry is quite correct of course. In one othe threads here I recently posted a picture of a really easy to make series cable--one that does not require any soldering.

In fact, John and I used it (he has been visiting all week for some work and play) last night to provide 12V to power my Geek Pulse--and that was terrific.

[Superdad]

Okay, I changed the two LPS-1s back to parallel, set both to 7V. Should be getting about 2.2A. Hooked them up to the hugo and turned it on, I get the underpowered 5 blinking red with one green on both units. I can't believe this DAC actually uses that much power. But it's asking for it. The Lipo battery can do nominally 3.75V with 2.2Ah X 2 batteries.

 

Sorry, but paralleling UltraCap LPS-1 until will not work and will not double the available amperage. The only way for that to work is if I hand select two boards whose outputs match to within 10mA of one another (measured driving exactly the same current load).

And then the cables to the load should be at least the 45cm of the provided cables to add a bit of resistance. Unless both those things are done, the DAC (or whatever you are powering) will end up drawing much more from one supply than the other.

 

I have only ever sold one matched pair, and that was to Gstew (who now has something like 8 LPS-1s!) for a special project. It was time consuming to find a perfectly matched pair, and so that is not a service we are offering.

 

Wiring LPS-1s in series works fine though. 10V, 12V, and 14V are all easy with a pair of supplies, and even higher is possible with additional units.

[Superdad]

....

4th attempt, use Lifepo4 battery with 1 LPS-1 unit, both on their own inputs. LPS-1 unit attempted at 3.3V and 5V. Failed, over current condition even with Lifepo 4 battery working. Fails before even attempting to power up and attempting to power up.

 

All this is highly nonstandard and is neither a prescribed use for the LPS-1 nor something that I imagine Chord condones either. My suggestion os to stop before you damage either your DAC or the LPS-1s. I also do not see why one would want to use an LPS-1 as a battery charger.

 

Cheers,

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, louisxiawei said:

@Superdad

 

Hey Alex,

 

I recently move my LPS-1 onto the table very near to me and also notice a regular, interval tiny high-pitch click from the LPS-1 itself. (Not from the music playback system).

 

Then I find someone who had similar issue from the link.

 

Is it considered to be normal?

 

Any help would be appreciated.

 

 

Well you found and read my report.  I suppose on the right table, with an ear held a couple of centimeters away, in an ultra-quiet room, someone might hear a tiny click from the charging circuit (the banks switch without and relays so that cannot be heard.).

 

As long as you unit is working then all is normal. 

 

Agian, the LPS-1, by any reasonable standard is completely silent.  No offense, but you are only the second person in world to say they can hear something from it--and I tested and reported on the other fellow's unit.  So no need to worry.  

 

--Alex C.