Native DSD versus DOP comparison

[HenryOHenry]

On 10/2/2020 at 7:10 PM, ted_b said:

DXD is not a disc format, it is a marketing term for 24 bit PCM recorded or transferred at 352.8k or 384k.  There is no disc that houses that.  It (DXD) was created, initially, to provide those with DSD masters a high resolution enough PCM container to do editing in PCM, with the thought that the resultant edited recording would be re-transferred back to DSD.  When DXD is used as the original recorded format it is often released as original PCM, too.  But I have never heard of a DXD disc.  ?

1) My Grace SDACB supports PCM up to 384 kHz. Does that mean it can play DXD downloads from the Native DSD website? 

 

2) My DAC is not listed on Native DSD, apparently because it cannot play DSD natively even though it does play DSD. Is it likely that the DSD sound is being degraded by the DAC? The files I’ve downloaded from the website still sound wonderful, though, with two exceptions...

 

3) The exceptions are the two Reference Recordings files I bought, one in 256, the other in 128. Specifically, these are Honeck conducting Bruckner’s 9th and Beethoven’s 3rd, respectively.

 

My DAC says it can play DSD up to 256. It is connected to a 2017 MacBook Pro via USB, and it is feeding the signal to a THX AAA 789 amp. Nevertheless, to test if my setup can handle 256, I downloaded both the free 256 sampler and the 256 version of Raizes. They both played fine, so I decided to buy the 256 Honeck Bruckner 9. The file sounds like a CD skipping.

 

Thinking the problem was that my DAC was having problems playing 256 (even though it can handle the other 256 files perfectly), I made sure to buy the 128 version of the Honeck Beethoven 3. But same problem!

 

What is odd is that I now have 11 downloads from Native DSD and all the files from other labels play perfectly, whether they are 64, 128, or 256. I’m only having problems with the one label (Reference Recordings). Any thoughts as to what might be happening?

 

 

[HenryOHenry]

13 hours ago, ted_b said:

1) Yes, DXD is within the parameters of your DAC specs, so it is capable of playing our DXD downloads.

2) Now, it's easier to flag those that don't play DSD :) )  I will check further.

3) you are lucky to be getting DSD256 via Mac cuz often the Mac driver is only capable of half that speed).  I will ask him also to check. 

1) iFi advertises DXD capability, Grace doesn't, so it was kind of confusing. Thanks for the clarification.

2) Indeed :)

3) I should probably limit myself to 128. But, as I said, I did that with the second file and had the same problem. I sent Jonas an email to see if we can figure out what is going on. 

13 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Weird thought:  Could you have downloaded the multichannel, rather than the stereo, tracks?

Not unless the mixup is on their end. Double checked to make sure.

 

[HenryOHenry]

Update.

 

The 256fs file plays perfectly when converted to PCM 176.4, which suggests that the NativeDSD file is not corrupted and that the problem is that my DAC is having a hard time playing it because MacOS DoP requires so much overhead. As to why I am able to play other 256fs files, Jonas suggested that the problem might have to do with the various file sizes. A single track of Bruckner is 27:46 long compared to, say, a 2:58 track on the other DSD files.

 

The case with the 128fs file is a little more bizarre but might also have to do with file size. So far, I'm only having issues with the first track which, at 16:13, happens to be the longest. All the other tracks play fine. I even managed to play the first track almost flawlessly the last time I tried it. It only gave me a brief hiccup near the end.

 

No problems playing 64fs files.

 

In short, it looks like I need a better DAC. I wanted to post this since I have previously speculated that the problem might lie with NativeDSD's file, but that does not seem to be case. 

 

 

 

 

[HenryOHenry]

Thanks for the reply, Ted. What I meant was that my DAC was insufficient because of the Mac overhead. The DAC only supports sample rates up to 384 kHz and my understanding is that to play DSD256 you need one that can handle 705.6. Is that your understanding as well? I would rather replace the DAC than switch to Windows.

[HenryOHenry]

On 5/3/2016 at 8:33 PM, barrows said:

 

As far as I am concerned the only "disadvantage" for DoP is that it requires high rate PCM capability for those who want to be able to playback high rate DSD files: DSD 64 requires a 176.4 PCM package, DSD 128 requires a 352.8 PCM package, and DSD 256 requires a 705.6 PCM package. Not a lot of DACs can do 705.6 PCM, so DSD 256 delivery is generally limited to Native DSD streams.

Other than the above limitation, there is NO downside to DoP, as the "extra processing" required is negligible. "Packing" DoP is not like oversampling and filtering, which does require significant processing. I checked this on my Mac: using Jriver to send DoP DSD 128 required no more CPU activity than playing back native 24/96 PCM files.

If the processing power to unpack DSD on my MacBook Pro is virtually nil, I'm wondering where the problems are coming from. I can play DXD with no problem, but DSD is an issue. I can play up to DSD 256 when the tracks are short, but I listen to a lot of classical music where a single track can easily exceed 20 minutes. With these longer tracks, I can only play DSD 64. I assumed it was a CPU limitation. So now I want to upgrade my base-model Intel MBP (2017 2.3 GHz 8 GB RAM/121 GB SSD) to one that will play at least DSD 128 with no problems. What should I be looking for as making a difference? Does the M1 chip make any difference?

[HenryOHenry]

I can finally answer my own question: even my longest DSD 256 files play perfectly using an M1 16GB RAM/1TB Mac mini. Haven't tried DSD 512 because my external DAC doesn't support it.