Power supplies and cables - observations, considerations & commentary

[Confused]

OK - My first post on CA so go easy on me! In fact, I did l did look around for a newbies intro thread or similar but could not find anything! So I'll just have to do it here. Firstly tho say thanks to the forum and it's members, I have been lurking here as a guest and the information I have picked up recently has been invaluable, in particular relating to the microRendu and Mutec MCS+USB, so a big thanks to those that have helped me without even knowing it! Oddly enough, I have been aware of CA for a while, and whilst being very impressed with folk building trick twin PC streamers, CAPS servers and so on I always felt this stuff was a step to far for me, I probably had enough computer knowledge and skill to pull it off, but probably only to pull it off badly! I find it curious to think that I now have a kind of pseudo twin PC set up, Ethernet streaming to a microRendu, and this has happened almost by accident. Anyway, enough waffle, I have a question which is on topic here.

 

I am currently using my microRendu with iFi power. This is running to a Mutec MC3+USB, feeding a Devialet amp via AES/EBU. I have been looking at a replacement for the iFi, so obviously this thread is of great interest. The point is, the mR+Mutec rig is sounding excellent, so I am not thinking that there is a problem with the iFi as such, plus, reading through this thread, there are not really any examples of anyone posting 'I replaced the iFi with PSU XXX and it was a clear step up in sound quality'. So I am dithering as to what to do. It is worth mentioning that as I am UK based the various options as listed on Sonore's website are of limited interest. After all, why ship a PSU from the US, have hassle with customs etc., when there are many 'local' options to choose from, the £/$ exchange rate post Brexit does not help either! So I have been looking at a Paul Hynes SR5MR2, which would also be able to provide clean power to the associated Ethernet switch, so a neat solution for about £800. But reading through the comments in this thread I am wondering if it is worth it? Also, I have thought of waiting for the Uptone Audio UltraCap LPS-1, which could be powered happily enough from the iFi. To be honest I am dithering! Normally I am quite decisive with these things, but I am not seeing a clear enough indication of the benefits of say the Paul Hynes SR5MR2 to be able to make a clear decision with this one, I don't feel I have the info to decide. Any thoughts or ideas?

[Confused]

Hi there

 

I use a uRendu powered by iFi into a BMC PureDAC. About a month ago, as a power upgrade for the uRendu, I ordered a SR3 from Paul Hynes with internal silver wiring and silver power cable upgrades for a total spend of a bit more than £400 with shipping. Paul tells me that it's about to ship so if you give me a week or so I can tell you what impact it has had.

 

There's also a dude elsewhere on these boards (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f20-buy-and-sell-audio-and-computer-components/handcrafted-audiophile-linear-power-supply-kenneth-lau-19040/ ) selling custom build LPUs from Hong Kong.

 

Best

 

Nikko

Thanks Nikko, I will certainly be interested to read your impressions of the Paul Hynes. Although I think it might take more than a week to get a definitive view, I understand the Paul hynes PSU's can take a month to bed in and perform at their optimum.

[Confused]

Well, I was finding hard to believe I'd somehow cobbled together a pseudo twin PC set-up, now I discover I have an advanced one I fear my head might explode!

 

Anyway, I had stumbled across MCRU, and they do actually offer a PSU for the microRendu, at a glance it does look like a reasonable bit of kit for the price, as follows:

 

Linear Power Supply for Sonore microRendu + Sonicorbiter SE - MCRU

 

This comes in at an extremely reasonable £235. However, this does nicely illustrate my problem. I could go for one of these at £235, I could even get two for £470, and use the second one for the Ethernet switch. Or for £800 I could get the Paul Hynes SR5MR2 which I think is higher spec and would feed both the mR and Ethernet switch. Or I could get something from MCRU for £235 and use it to power the Uptone Audio UltraCap LPS-1. Many options! So what do I want to achieve? Quite simply the best possible sound quality from the mR, so this bit is straight forward. The problem I have is that I have no feel at all for what the mR performance difference will be between iFi, MCRU, Paul Hynes, UltraCap LPS-1, or anything else. I don't have anything tangible with which to make a decision, or even enough general experience with PSU's and this type of kit to make a gut instinct choice. Maybe I'm overthinking this one and I should just flip a coin and buy something! But other than flipping a coin, I have no way of rationalising this one. I guess I am looking for the wise minds out there with some experience of this stuff to gently nudge me the right way.

[Confused]

@flummoxe - I was actually thinking in a similar way, maybe one of these that could power both the UltraCap and the Ethernet switch:

 

MCRU Dual Output Regulated Linear Power Supply - MCRU

 

I'd spec it for [font= ]7.5V @ 2.4A[/font], that way it could power the mR direct, whilst waiting to see what the reports on the UltraCap look like.

 

I've sent a query to MCRU to double check this would work. The specs on the MCRU website are not that clear or extensive.

[Confused]

I do think you are overthinking it. If I was you, I'd call MCRU and ask them what the best bang for the pound is for the mRendu. I bet they will tell you.

As far as powering an LPS-1, I don't understand why people keep talking about buying expensive an expensive PS for it - it isn't needed and won't make it sound better (that's the whole point of the LPS-1).

The only thing you MIGHT need to be concerned about is if the PS for the LPS-1 puts a lot of noise back into the AC. I don't think you need a £500 or £800 power supply for that, and a linear PS isn't necessarily superior to some other type in that regard. If you want to get an LPS-1, do some research with vendors and find something that is reasonably priced and doesn't pollute the AC.

 

Yes, I agree an expensive PSU will not help sound quality using LPS-1. The thing is, I was thinking that something form MCRU would indeed be something reasonably priced without polluting the AC. To be honest, I have little idea how good an MCRU PSU is in this regard, and even if I asked them they are hardly going to reply that they are rubbish!

[Confused]

When running my microRendu powered by iFi into a Devialet amp via USB, it ran at a reassuringly just warm to the touch, this seamed fine to me, I was more than happy to leave it powered up and running 24/7. More recently I have been running the microRendu powered by iFi into a Mutec MC3+USB, and it runs staggeringly hot! I understand this is due to the Mutec 'isolating' the USB side of things and drawing full power via the USB feed, rather than relying on it's own power. Hot to the touch? Yes, you could burn yourself, it's that hot. I have mitigated this in the short term with a very crude 'cooling system', that is the mR is trapped between the top of my Blu-Ray player and a large metal drill box I found in the garage! It's a big box of drills, and includes all the intermediate +0.5mm sizes, so has a reasonable mass. OK, as crude as you like, but it appears to work and keep temperatures at very reasonable levels. Not a very elegant though, and I am hoping that the switch to a 7V LPSU will allow me to put the drills back in my tool cabinet!

[Confused]

Getting this back on topic, I have had some feedback from MCRU regarding a LPSU that would run 7.5v at 2.4A. So something that would power the mR nicely directly, but could also be used later to feed the Uptone Audio UltraCap LPS-1, without putting too much grunge back into the mains. It would appear the £235 item MCRU offer for the mR is not powerful enough, but they could offer a more powerful item that could be set to 7.5V and easily deliver 2.4A. However, this is a more expensive beast at about £400, so not exactly the 'El Cheapo' LPS option that you might want considering that the PSU has no influence on sound quality via the LPS-1.

 

So an MCRU LPSU plus the UltraCap LPS-1 is more or less the same cash as a Paul Hynes SR5MR2, which could also power the associated Ethernet switch. This looks quite a compelling option I think. The question is, how would a Paul Hynes SR5MR2 perform versus the LPS-1 in terms of mR sound quality? I'm guessing there would be very little in it, if any difference at all? This is just a bit of a hunch though, this is not my area of expertise!

 

So Paul Hynes SR5MR2 versus UltraCap LPS-1? Does anyone have an informed or inspired view as to what would win this shootout?

[Confused]

Who's opinon would you like to read? Unfortunately, such comparisons are often going to be system dependent (especially if we assume that both options are going to operate as specified/expected). So it may not be valid to assume that one's own results will be similar to someone else's results given a different system context. The differences which may exhibit themselves in these types of comparisons are really the types of differences which need to be evaluated in one's own system.

The reason for this, is that every system is flawed in some aspect, and sometimes, a valid technical improvement, may actually sound "worse" as it may highlight a flaw in the system (whereas the previous approach contributed to hiding that flaw).

 

I am not going to suggest one approach is better than another here, my point is just to take other's observations of such things with a healthy grain of salt.

 

I do agree with what you are saying here, but there are other ways of looking at this. For most of us it simply is not possible to try every option out there for every component. I am a great advocate of the extended home demonstration wherever possible, but for some kit it simply is not possible. This certainly applies to a UK resident interested in US supplied ancillary items. So I too would be interested in anyone posting their observations of any two LPSU's, or any other items for that matter. Would I take such observations with a 'health grain of salt'? Yes I would! But given a number of observations, perhaps in part from individuals who's views you trust, can certainly improve tho odds of buying well over just taking a total punt. After all, I have recently purchased both a microRendu and a Mutec MC3+USB based only on posts I have read on various forums, and luckily this has worked out very well!

[Confused]

Believe me...I'm not surprised people will try this. However, the question needs to be asked so other reading this can understand that it's not something you have to do.

 

This comment intrigued me! Not that there is anything wrong with the sentiments expressed here, in fact this would appear to be a an entirely sensible comment. However, this forum is full of comments along the lines of 'you need the best possible, cleanest power supply you can get in order to achieve the best sound quality from a microRendu'. On top of this, these has also been much comment about the very high performance potential of the UltraCap LPS-1. So based on a general read of this forum, maybe without thinking too hard about this technically, it would be very easy to reach the conclusion that the general consensus is that if you have a microRendu it should be powered by the UltraCap LPS-1, which in itself is needs a LPSU to keep mains noise down. Of course Paul Hynes has a reputation for producing very fine LPSU's. So could you hear the difference between a mR powered by Paul Hynes LPSU alone or one powered by Paul Hynes + UltraCap LPS-1? I would doubt it, but with the extreme emphasis that has been placed on the importance of clean power for the mR, it is hardly surprising that this kind of thought process prevails.

[Confused]

.

 

The comments on this forum pretty much always push towards getting the most expensive, most tweaked out solutions possible.

 

At some point there is a big drop off of results for the dollar.

If you already put out the bucks for a superior PS like the SuperCap, the question needs to be asked how much extra SQ you are getting in YOUR system by investing more in it,and is that the most worthwhile place for you to spend on your system, and even if YOU will hear the difference in YOUR setup.

 

The answer isn't always yes.

 

Quite! I am trying to imagine how good a system, or indeed how good your ears and brain would need to be, to detect the difference between say a mR powered by a 'respectable' LPSU such as the Paul Hynes and a mR powered by the LPS-1. I would have thought the difference would be vanishingly small?

[Confused]

As an aside... Answer this question: Why does a better power supply make a µRendu perform better?

 

I would submit that the answer is: less noise in the power supply and ground planes, means cleaner power supply rails, ultimately, to the masterclock. And every clock performs better with clean supply rails. This means lower jitter. So, perhaps yes, that jitter is what matters here...

 

Believe me, when Crystek (manufacturer of high precision low phase noise clocks) produces the specifications for their various clock models, they are using a very, very clean power supply.

A very good point I think! I have been trying to rationalise my own thoughts as to what to get to power my mR, but the question 'Why does a better power supply make a µRendu perform better?' has to be THE question. Maybe if the Sonore guys could provide some additional clarity / information with respect to this point it could provide some useful insight.

[Confused]

 

I know, way more than you ever wanted to know, but that is the state of things. The conclusion is that it is going to be extremely difficult to pick between two supplies based on published specs. You have to listen, and preferably in your system.

 

John S.

Way more than I wanted to know? Actually, no, that was a fascinating and very enlightening post! Many thanks for sharing John!

[Confused]

hifi_swlon (or anyone else who has knowledge in this area) - I am interested that you opted for the 'silver DC lead' for your Paul Hynes SR3. I am not an expert in this area, but I did look at the extra cost for this and kind of thought 'what's wrong with copper'. I am just interested in the rationale here.

[Confused]

I must admit that I am now in the position of seriously considering placing an order for the Paul Hynes SR5. My plan is to use this to power both the microRendu and the associated Ethernet switch. The historic issues per Mike's links above do indeed make grim reading, although I do not wish to totally condemn Paul Hynes based on what may now be what was indeed purely historic issues. The recent reports I have read do indicate good communications and reasonably timely issues. I suspect that the recent reports I am aware of will be identical to those mentioned by hifi_swlon, has anyone else had any recent experience with Paul Hynes? I have to say that I have been in communication with him recently and all I have experienced is rapid communication with good factual technical content, so from my own very limited experience I can only conclude all is good now. Maybe I should get my order in before the Atlantic storm season kicks in though!

 

I have one technical question here. As I said above, my plan is to use the SR5 to power both the microRendu and the associated Ethernet switch. I see this as a neat and simple way to eliminate two wall warts. However, is this the best way to proceed on a purely technical basis? That is, would it be technically superior to use two separate LPSU's for the mR and the switch? Or would this make no difference, all other things being equal?

[Confused]

I have been following this thread with great interest but I have to admit that I have been struggling to come up with an obvious choice for an LPSU to power the microRendu. One thing occurs to me, and that is that maybe I should be paying just as much attention to the power supply to my Mutec MC3+USB, which effectively sits as the last device prior to my DAC. OK, Mutecs are off topic here, but do find myself in the position that I'm thinking I need two or three LPSU's, for the mR, Ethernet switch, Mutec and so on. So this leads me to the conclusion that I should be going for a decent LPSU for the mR, but not one that is 'all in' cash wise, as I then have to buy more of the things to cover other areas. Looking in the UK for something readily available, of decent quality and about the right price point per the above, I have found these:

 

MCRU Ltd Edition Linear PSU - MCRU

 

Linear Power Supply for Sonore microRendu + Sonicorbiter SE - MCRU

 

These are an interesting design as they have two regulators, one close to the PSU, the second in a separate case, close to the item being powered. The £450 'SE' item is rated at 7V, 2.5A, so no issues with power. There are very few details spec wise, but it appears that the manufacturer Long Dog Audio does have a good reputation with power supplies.

 

I have to admit that I am very indecisive with this one! Does anyone have any experience of LDA LPSU's or any thoughts on the 'SE' item per the link above as a decent LPSU for the mR?

[Confused]

Just the same the official spec for the unit remains as follows: Power input: 6-9 VDC at 1 Amp min continuous.

 

To be clear on this point. If you have a microRendo connected to something like the Mutec MC3+USB, which draws approximately 350mA via USB, does the official spec for the microRendu PS remain at 1 Amp, or does it increase to 1.35 A? (mR 1 Amp + USB draw from DAC or Mutec)

[Confused]

SBooster LPSU 6v:

 

In summary, the Sbooster improves on what my system is doing right. This can almost sound minor, but in terms of what we are after in High Fidelity I suspect it is not - I just don't think it will supply this on its own. If your system is in good shape it will help focus what is already there.

 

 

M

Actually, this does not sound minor at all to me. I too am running a microRendu (with iFi) via a Mutec MC3+USB. To be honest, this combination sounds just so good that part of me was thinking that a linear PSU for the microRendu was unlikely to deliver any improvements. (less mains grunge accepted) So reading your post has perhaps nudged me the right way, if every thing is sounding good already, even the chance of the smallest of improvements is highly compelling! Thanks for sharing.

[Confused]

My Paul Hynes SR3 arrived today after a short delay of a couple of weeks.

 

It looks well built in a nice box, and the 'fine silver' DC lead looks nicely made with a very fine 3-wire weave of twisted pair type arrangement of some sort - clear insulation shows the silver off which is a nice touch. There's a blue LED light underneath too which never hurts IMO.

 

It's plugged in and running, and out of the box my initial reaction is there's little separating it from the ifi - certainly nothing life changing - but to be fair I'm not really in a position to listen 'critically' tonight. Will report back once I've got a few more thoughts to share.

Its fair to say that opinions vary on equipment burn in, but there is some science to suggest that capacitors do change in performance from new, so your Paul Hynes (which relies heavily on capacitors) may not be capable of it's full magic yet. My advise would be to leave it powered up an running for a couple of weeks and not worry about it, in fact you sometimes spot things in the sound when you are not trying to hard, so forgetting about it can be a good idea. After two or three weeks, you could then try a switch back to the iFi, I find it's sometimes easier to spot those subtle improvements when you take them away!

[Confused]

I have been powering my mR with an UptoneAudio LPS-1 for the last couple of weeks. I have posted some observations of this comparison over on the LPS-1 listening impressions thread. I have posted a link below, because clearly this is 'on topic' for this thread also. As a summary, the LPS-1 offers a surprising step up in performance. I have to say, for my ears, in my system, the microRendu + LPS-1 combination is superb!

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f27-uptone-audio-sponsored/ultracap%99-linear-power-supply-1-listening-impressions-thread-30172/index12.html#post611450