Ayre Acoustics QX-5 Twenty – The Digital Hub

[ctsooner]

I sold my Ayre DX-5 DSD yesterday. The next few weeks will be a real exercise in patience while I wait for Ayre to build my QX-5. I'm thinking of picking up an Audioquest Dragonfly as a temporary DAC. Hopefully, fed by the microRendu, I'll get sound I can live with for a while. Later I can use it with my iPhone.

 

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Congrats. Happy for you. I have the AQ Red that I use and love it. If I had the extra cash and could handle the size, the Mojo is a much better portable DAC, but that Red is unreal for the money. Drives the Big Audeze's too as I was using it yesterday to see if it could.

[ctsooner]

Well I guess we will disagree. I have never heard direct sound better and that is with some of the most expensive DAC's in the world. It's not just manufacturer's it's many many others who have done this with many DAC's. Some post on this thread. The closest I've heard is with the Empirical Audio DAC and Steve Nugents Final Drive transformers. As for mixing digital with analog, there is a ton of noise to concern yourself with as well as power supply's. In order to separate those, you need separate power supplies and most probably another case to keep them away from each other. I guess that's what a preamp really is for.

 

In the end, it doesn't matter as we are talking about right now and as of right now what DAC do you recommend that sounds better driving an amp directly?

 

Also, I doubt that the folks I speak with would lie to me or mislead to try and sell another box to us all. I have a better relationship with most than that. Yes they are all in the business to make money, but most of the high end guys I speak with on a fairly regular basis are very very open about things, because they trust me and know I'm not sharing most on a board. I don't blame you for being skeptical and I even posted earlier that we 'don't know what the future holds'. I do know a couple of folks who are trying really hard to make their DAC's volume control sound as good as a top preamp in the system, so I'm sure we could see it someday.

 

Such statements are audiophiles myths. There is no technical reason why inserting an extra (and unnecessary) component into the chain will improve performance. Additionally, there is no method of volume control which produces less distortion than a digital volume control when implemented correctly.

Manufacturers who sell preamps are not the best source to trust for actual facts on this matter. Certainly, such a manufacturer can build their DAC such that it sounds better into their preamp, but this does not mean that using a preamp is always better!

 

Ask yourself: how could a preamp make a system better versus no preamp at all? Every added component in the signal path adds distortion/noise, including, even the very best, preamps. By removing a preamp you remove the following components: at least 1 interconnect, including two contact based connections, at least a single active stage, often two, with transistors (or tubes), resistors, often capacitors, input switching (all switches add distortion/noise) and usually a resistor based volume control device. Every single one of these components adds distortion/noise.

 

If a manufacturer knows how to design a good gain (or in some cases buffer) stage for their preamp, they know how to put that Exact Same Circuit into the output of their DAC, and that circuit is what drives the interconnect-input stage of the amp.

 

Now I am not saying that every DAC will perform better when run direct to amp, as some DACs have inadequate output drive to drive the input stage of some amps at their best-but this does not mean that running a preamp is Always better! It is quite easy to build the output stage of the DAC such that it drives the input stage of the amp at its best: just use the same circuit used in the output of the preamp!

 

Yes, i have tested this with many DACs, and some are not up to the task, but many are as well, and making blanket statements that using a preamp is always better is misleading and technically incorrect as well.

[ctsooner]

listening must be my myth. Please share with all of us all those better sounding DAC volume controls that you are speaking about. You can't because most folks feel that right now there aren't any. Doesn't matter about technical stuff at all, because for whatever reason the companies haven't done it yet. Maybe it's because in order to boost the signal properly, it's more than just using a volume control. maybe it's not worth it to install a real preamp into a DAC box just to save a few dollars and still not get sound that's as good as using a good preamp. I'm talking about a preamp that is a very good one, not just an inexpensive pre.

 

I'm glad that you know more than all of us and can call what we hear a myth. I think that's the part that I take offense to. It's reality AS OF TODAY in audio. Again, please share the DAC's that you know of that sound better to YOU driving directly. I even shared ONE that can, but you are still adding about 3k worth of transformers that are separate from the DAC.

 

 

CT: How do you think a manufacturer can make their preamp sound better? Technically speaking? No matter what, a DAC is always both a digital and analogue component at once, whether it drives an amp directly or not, so you always have the "problem" of a mixed signal device handling both analogue and digital duties.

 

Indeed, you do want to have separate power supplies in DAC, often the more separate supplies the better, and the best DACs have separate supplies. Noise is a cumulative problem; a preamp can only add noise to the signal, it cannot reduce it.

 

It is very frustrating to hear audiophiles "believing" these ridiculous myths, which have no basis in the technical reality of the situation.

 

All the amplifier "knows" is what the signal feeding it is like; if one uses the same (analogue) circuit at the output of the DAC which used at the output of the preamp, the amp will see exactly the same signal, minus the additional no/distortion added by the preamp.

 

I will not discuss this any further, but I suggest that you educate yourself a bit on the technical details of audio circuitry before believing myths like this, and making misleading blanket statements.

[ctsooner]

I'll ask, but I know you can just hook up the thumb drive or a NAS or Server. If it takes just a thumb drive, why wouldn't it use just a hard drive filled as long as the format works with it. I use MControl to run it via my phone or pad and it's not a bad interface with music on my phone, Tidal streaming and anything else on my network. I want to eventually incorporate Roon though.

Getting back on the topic of the Ayre QX-5 Twenty, I have what may be a stupid question which I haven't seen directly addressed. Since it's being billed as a "digital hub" can you simply connect an external hard drive to it and access music files for playback, or must you use a PC with appropriate software or another renderer/server in order to play digital files with the QX-5? TIA for sharing your knowledge about this most intriguing new DAC.

[ctsooner]

Actually Bill, they all hate me, lol. I've got all the gear for the fiber optic conversion coming and am switching my internet to very fact Xfinity. I'll then hook up my Mac Mini in the office with the switch, router and modem and use Roon if I can. I'll just use a hard drive off the Mac Mini. By doing this the extra noise will be taken off the line. I'm setting it up to run optical conversation to the Mac Mini too I believe. I have someone helping me out on all of this, lol. I'll also have a separate run for my Apple TV to keep that line clean too..

 

I would also think as long as it provides some way to view and select the files that it should be able to do so, but would greatly appreciate your checking on it since you apparently have a great relationship with Ayre and/or your dealer. I could see some potential benefit in avoiding additional noise created by a laptop if you can simply connect an external USB drive directly!

[ctsooner]

Thanks for sharing. That's what I was told last night by Ayre. The biggest thing IRT the cable is to use a Cat 8 if possible and a Cat 7 at min. I can't wait for my fiber optical conversion stuff to get here and then to call Xfinity today to get better internet lol

 

 

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[ctsooner]

Thank you Vangelis! I knew you could access files via NAS but hoped you could alternatively use a directly connected USB hard drive, but apparently not. Thanks also to ctsooner for checking with Ayre.

 

They said that basically a spinning disk or SSD needs a computer, but somehow the thumb drive is noticed. Wish knew digital like you guys, lol.

[ctsooner]

But J what were the measurements? Maybe they used a black box in there to make it sound better with the pre? Maybe your ears were really off that day? Conspiracy theorists say there is a myth and you aren't helping their cause by listening.

 

 

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[ctsooner]

I did the upgrade and haven't had the pops anymore. I just hooked up the ayrelink cord and need to figure out how to set it so that the units go on and off together (AX5/Twenty and QX5/Twenty) and that the input on the QX5 turns on to the last input and doesn't reset to another input. All little tweet things, but this is awesome to use.

 

Thanks Scott, yes I was told the same thing. I'm just going to hook up my rebuilt Mac Mini server to the net via a fiber optic converter deal and then run a large SSD off the optimized USB input on it and see if I like how it sounds and works. If that doesn't do it for me then I'll probably just scrap the Roon idea and get the Melco N1ZH, unless I decide to get a true N1Z from family living in Japan and figure out the power supply deal, lol......

[ctsooner]

Thanks. More to watch. Taking away from listening. Lol

 

 

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[ctsooner]

Does anyone know if Ayre has weighed in and promised MQA for the QX-5 Twenty now that MQA seems to be a reality?

 

Not yet. It's always been a reality, but just because Tidal is streaming it, most of the major labels still haven't picked it up. I've been around long enough to see so many different formats promise so much, but never fully materialize. SACD can sound great too, but due to politics and money, it never really took off either. I'm hoping MQA does take off, but I'm still a sceptic too. What I've found listening to MQA vs non MQA on a great DAC, the differences are very small. I have a lot of well recorded high res music from a server that has been used by Empirical Audio at all their shows and MQA doesn't sound better with my QX5/20, or my older Empirical Audio ODSE/SE DAC.

 

That's just me. Would well recorded MQA recordings sound better on a QX5/20 that has MQA? Probably, but I'm sure it's incremental as this DAC is so good already. Do I want them to add it later one? Yes, I hope they do as I too have Tidal, but I want to really run it through it's paces on my iPhone/AQ Red DAC/Noble Savant IEM's to see what it can do with less expensive products. JMHO

[ctsooner]

Hopefully that's a fully unfolding Roon that you are excited to see unfold. Lol.

 

 

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[ctsooner]

Guys any of the inputs are optimized. I have been using both Ethernet and USB as well as optical for cable and spdiff for blue ray and all sound better than my other DAC by a mile. I have to set my network up better and will soon. I know of two who feel strongly that the Ethernet is the best way to go for SQ but they have their set up the way I'm setting up mine. That's with a commercial grade optical converter with a good LPS on the system end to keep noise to a minimum. In USB I like it best without any of the special devices. I don't even use the one that cuts the 5v on the line. I also like it best when not plugged into my Synergistic Research power cell 10 mk2. That's going on the market soon as the Ayre amps sound best out of the Audioquest wall sockets too.

 

 

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[ctsooner]

Good question Joe , I'm trying to get the Melco N1ZS pricing this week, delivery time is 30 days after 50% deposit.

 

 

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Guys, I have a dealer who sells Melco and would love to help I'm sure. I don't know his stance on payment, but he may be able to get faster delivery time. If you want an easy solution and don't care about Roon, then it's a great way to go. I have heard the lesser one and it sounded outstanding. I still like the rebuilt Mac Mini with Paul Hynes LPS that I own better though. I have spoken to a couple of folks who own the Vandersteen 7 mk 2 with the Ayre Ref stack and the QX5/20. They are running top AQ cables throughout with no power conditioner. They both own the N1Z (solid state one) and swear by it. They both have owned the Aurender W20 and feel the Melco is so much more detailed without losing that musicality of the Aurender. neither care about user interface and both have a large library and stream Qbuz I believe (the European CD quality streaming service).

 

I know both's ears and trust them.

[ctsooner]

Joe don't hold out for the MQA. It may or may not happen but I've heard it. In speaking with two engineers who make DACs (not even the Ayre guys who agree) they have said that if you filter properly that will sound better than MQA. I have to agree as I listen to a ton of higher resolution that is well recorded music and it sounds better on my QX5 than it did in MQA on a Meridian system. Tidal will stream MQA so we will have partial anyways and it will sound best and a great DAC like a QX5 I have liked what I've heard of MQA and to me it's just another format to get higher resolution music stored in using less space. I'm more excited about streaming it through my Audioquest Red on my iPhone using my Noble Savant IEMs when traveling. That's just me though.

 

 

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[ctsooner]

Joe, hope my post came off the right way. I too love the Ayre gear. As I've stated, I had an Empirical Audio ODSE/SE DAC and was offered an upgrade to his newest ODSX DAC with all the upgraded components for the cost of components (long story). It was most tempting as Steve makes a GREAT DAC. I was so concerned about ordering the QX5/20, but once it burned in, I was sold. The ease of use would make it special, but to me, the sound is just so musical as we've all said. I want to let MQA take hold or not. If it does, then I"m sure Ayre will offer us upgrades for a fair cost. That's one reason I love buying Ayre or Vandersteen gear. They offer upgrades to original owners and it keeps the life span of their products up to date for at least 15 years. No extra modules to purchase and plug in. I don't mind sending back an amp or DAC for an upgrade (done this before with other gear in the past) and having them recondition the product while it's there. Makes selling better in the future too as you can tell folks it was in for a refresh from the factory a year or two prior. Hope you get the money soon as I can't wait to hear your feedback, lol...Ha....

 

I am already a committed Ayre-head. Love the gear and it absolutely is a destination for me. A friend has the QX5 and is flipping at how great it sounds. It's just a matter of time and $

 

Thank you for all the advice now and in the future.

[ctsooner]

Joe, feel free to email me. What speakers do you use? Many of us haven't been satisfied with our gear in years. I finally found Vandersteen and Ayre and am so happy I did. I listen to so many of the higher end speakers as I travel a ton and it's the hobby, but nothing has come close (FOR ME). It matches so good with Ayre gear (or anything else that's well engineered).

[ctsooner]

Joe, if you love the Stads, then you better not listen to the Vandersteen 7's. ....Just saying, lol. I don't like any of the new Sonus line, but those Strads a few years ago were really awesome. I have heard them with the original Ayre MRX/KRX, but not the 20's. I also heard them with the monster Krell amps that I usually don't like, but the Strads were a really nice match for them.

 

Not to derail this thread too much, but I have Sonus Faber Strads and JBL 4367's along with some bookshelf speakers. Ayre is a superb combo for any speaker, especially my Strads and JBL's. I'll eventually check out Vandy, but I am so happy now, why risk it.

I'll reach to you this weekend.

 

 

I moderate audioshark.org and have a long history there under the same username.

 

 

I enjoy reading you (ctsooner) and Blackstone, among others, on all the forums.

[ctsooner]

Joe, personally the 7's are the best speaker I've ever heard bar none. I've heard so many of the expensive Wilson, Rockport, Rahdio, Tidal (pretty awesome), Magico's etc... and the 7's are real world in size and for what they are price. I know that many in the industry feel the same and now them. Some of the biggest names from OTHER companies, lol. I find that funny personally. When you are ready to listen, let me know.

 

As for inputs, it's going to depend totally on your and your set up. The inputs are truly optimized. I've heard it both ways and both times preferred the ethernet as it was more musical and it was the most quiet. It will depend on the source you are using as well.

 

 

 

I know someone who has a pair and LOVES the Vandy 7's. I am sure they are off the hook great. We'll see, I'm still working on completing the Ayre system. Love the sound of Ayre and I know Vandy is a great complement to Ayre.

 

 

Has anyone decided on which input they like best on the QX5-20?

 

Thanks!

[ctsooner]

I haven't tried it with the QX5, but I've auditioned it with many systems over time. My friend has the Vandersteen 7's and uses Neil's top server. I've already spoken to Neil about making one for me too. He maximizes the outputs also. I have found his servers to be some of the best out there. He does a great job and he will integrate a lifetime Roon sub into the player for you too. It's Window's based, so maybe you can also do HQ with it also. The only thing agains the Melco for me is that it's interface sucks right now. I know that Alan from Melco told me that they are working on a new software interface. not sure when, but he's been updating everything on a constant basis.

 

Most folks seem to think Melco is the way to go, and I am certainly not arguing that point. Out of curiosity has anyone tried Music Vault's products with the QX-5?

[ctsooner]

Cant go wrong. Lots to like. Which one are you looking at?

[ctsooner]

I'd have him build it all in. Then you can figure out which is best. I'd think the Ayre stream would be. You met eventually sell it and if it has Tidal then it may open your market. I look at the Diamond ultra. Neil will work with you on your build and cost.

 

 

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[ctsooner]

They now know ....I haven't had these problems, but I don't run things the way you guys do I don't think. I'm fairly basic.

 

 

There is no doubt in my mind D is totally borked. It could be the way I have it configured is triggering some error, but with only two inputs enabled, USB and one Optical, it should be able to play music and give me sound from my TV for $10k!

 

The dropping from Network thing had been an issue since launch. It just keeps manifesting itself in different iterations with each firmware release.

 

They need to double down on the software side. I've had unresolved issues with basic functionality since it launched.

 

Maybe I'll reflash or roll back to B until they get it pinned down. I notified dealer.

 

 

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[ctsooner]

Well, Ayre is right on top of this. They will work and get this all under control. Blackstone, I wonder if this is just your unit? I have a few other friends who run things similarly to you and don't have this problem with the new update. The nice thing is that they are large enough to get guys working on this to fix it quickly which I assume they will. They'll get in touch with your dealer as soon as they figure things out to let you know how to proceed or if they need to fix their own updates.

[ctsooner]

I hope that you too have an orgasmic life for the next 20 Blackstone, HA LMAO....I know you will sound wise at least.

 

On a more positive note, the experience is orgasmic when the unit does work, which I am told, if I am lucky, is what the rest of my life will be like in 20 years.