Sonore microRendu

[barrows]

Jesus, with microRendu will it be a great difference between a highly specified music server for audio and a MacBook pro or macmini?

 

I have a proto µRendu now. I compared directly with my very serious, highly tweaked, dedicated music server (built as a project by Jesus and myself, featuring a SOtM USB card, onboard storage HD, SSD for the OS, onboard LiFePO4 battery supply with separate, discrete linear regulated supplies). The µRendu, powered by my prototype, very, very special linear discrete regulated power supply, easily made my take the server out of my system! Both "servers" were feeding USB to my DAC with Sonore USB interface.

 

At this point, I am confident in saying that the µRendu, when paired with a really, really, really good power supply (very important), will easily equal the most advanced dedicated music servers available (think Aurender and Antipodes top models) and probably actually beat them on sound quality! I know, this is high praise, but I am this impressed.

 

Earlier in this thread someone posted that serving the music files over Ethernet results in a compromise; the µRendu has proven to me that this claim is utter nonsense.

[barrows]

Hi guys. To answer some of the questions: I have only used the proto µRendu as an Open Home DLNA device, serving files from a NAS running Minimserver and Bubble, with a the Linn Kazzoo app for control (same approach I use with the Sonore Signature Rendu). I have not had any time to try other ways. No need for any full scale computers with this approach.

 

As with all things in audio, power supplies are at least half of the battle. I consult with Sonore on power supply design, layout considerations, and other "stuff", and built a very good supply for use with the µRendu proto for our initial testing. What will happen as far as products for sale, I do not have any information on that.

 

At some point I would be interested in trying to run a set up using ROON/HQPlayer, but that is a ways off for me. I still am not sure I understand how ROON really works over Ethernet, and if or how much the necessary computer on the network would affect the sound.

[barrows]

Thanks, but what I LOVE about what I'm using now (see signature) is that there is NO (regular) COMPUTER in my audio system and I very much want to keep it that way.

 

Doak: I would consider that if the "computer" is connected by Ethernet, it is not really "in" your system. Best way to achieve this is to place the computer elsewhere in your home, and on the other phase of your AC power from the audio system. Doing this really isolates the computer from the audio system, as the distance eliminates any possibility of airborne interference, and the Ethernet connection effectively isolates the system from the vast majority of the electrical interference. A NAS is also a relatively noisy component, being an ordinary consumer device built to the lowest possible price point, but getting it "away" from the audio system, both electrically and physically effectively isolates it.

My experiments so far have shown me that something like a MacMini with the best processor available actually appears to produce less noise than a Synology NAS, but I have not tested other NAS devices...

[barrows]

Barrows, you also said

"Earlier in this thread someone posted that serving the music files over Ethernet results in a compromise; the µRendu has proven to me that this claim is utter nonsense."

So, with the micro rendu, does it matter whether the music files are on a relatively noisy consumer grade NAS vs something like a Mac mini if we follow your advice in post #605?

 

There are so many possible variables, that is is impossible to test them all. My experience suggests that Ethernet provides a great deal of "isolation", but it is important to consider that "isolation" is never absolute. Hence we may have different experiences in different system contexts.

In my own experience I am sufficiently satisfied that having a consumer NAS running, well removed from the audio system (in another room) physically (to eliminate the possibility of airborne interference or just audible noise) and on another phase of the electrical AC supply (to provide additional electrical "isolation") is adequate to reduce any interference to levels so low as to not matter at all.

In my system, running a Synology NAS via an Apple router to the µRendu, I am getting significantly better performance than with my very tricked out, dedicated server (Linux/stripped down version of Vortexbox, like an Antipodes), which runs on an internal LiFePO4 battery supply, with separate, discrete linear regulated, power supplies, SOtM output card. The only "computer which I consider is "in the system" is the µRendu, whose noise profile is very, very low.

But, every system context is different, so people will have to do their own optimization for their system environment.

[barrows]

barrows: Yes, every system is different, but are you saying that significant sound quality improvements are likely when installing a microrendu, thereby removing my current vortexbox, sotm card etc. (see sig) to another room and using those only as a networked server?

 

yes! I am continually impressed by how good this thing sounds into my USB DAC. It is eye opening to say the least.

[barrows]

Hi Jesus, can i use 9V 2A LPS? And the DC jack is 2.1mm or 2.5mm? THX

 

9V is the top end of the acceptable voltage range, the µRendu will run pretty warm at that voltage, so I would make sure to provide plenty of airflow around the case. This supply will work. I would stress that the supply quality (noise and output impedance) does matter for the µRendu, and that a purpose built supply will be best. The µRendu is so affordable, that even spending $1K-$1.5K on a really good power supply still results in an incredible deal for the sound quality possible. 2.1 mm pin for the input jack on the µRendu. And keep the DC cable as short as possible, with good quality wire.

 

Jesus asked that I mention some details on my USB interface-I am testing the µRendu using the Sonore USB interface. this interface is about as good as a USB interface can be, with femto clocks, isolated power supplies, and galvanic isolation on the I2S output (and re-clcoking just before output). The µRendu made a significant difference in sonic performance with this interface, and I would expect the µRendu to make a significant sonic improvement with ANY USB interface. I have never encountered a USB interface, whether external or internal, which is not sensitive to the source (and the USB cable for that matter).

[barrows]

Would the SOtM "Intelligent" battery supply be a good choice to power the microRendu?

 

I am not a fan of batteries, except in the case of a music server using normal computer parts, where the isolation from the AC supply is really, really important. Batteries are noisier than really good regulated AC based supplies, and their output impedance changes as the charge level drops, so the performance is always changing.

A really, really good battery supply could be built for the µRendu, using way oversize LiFePO4 batteries, combined with SuperCapacitors (the SuperCaps take care of the output impedance), and a really good discrete regulator circuit, but this would cost somewhere around $2500.00 at the retail level, whereas an AC supply which performs as well or better could be built for half that.

 

That said, yes the SOtM battery supply would work if one is not looking for the ultimate level of performance.

[barrows]

I guess I'd fall more into this category.

 

Now I understand the logic that better power can mean better sound, but it seems to defeat the object of having a tiny optimised device that can be hidden away, if it then needs a $1,000-$1,500 linear power supply the size of a small oven to run it Also, I think at that point the SQ really has to be compared to products costing nearer $2,000.

 

 

 

Whatever happens, I hope the option for 'no power supply' remains, to save landfill.

 

Really looking forward to hearing early reports about SQ using only a modest power supply like, say, the ifi.

 

Hey guess what: The sound quality of the µRendu with a really, really good power supply is going to be equal or better than custom dedicated servers up to $10K. This is a no compromise, innovative, USB source. Seriously!

[barrows]

I understand that space/footprint was one issue regarding I2s implementation in the uRendu, but I would also think that product cannibalization was another. If the uRendu rivals the costly Signature Rendu in sound quality I would guess that the SR sales would just plummet (?)

 

PS:

I own the DirectStream so I am also an I2s-hooligan

 

Here I think it is really important to chime in regarding pricing, and why some things retail for what they do. The Sonore Signature Rendu includes a really, really, really good power supply, and a very, very nice custom, made in the USA chassis. Many people not "in the industry" may not understand this, but chassis price is the largest contributor to the final retail price of any piece of high end audio gear, and power supply comes in a close second, as power supplies include expensive components like transformers. The µRendu alone has no supply, or expensive, large chassis, hence the lower retail price.

If the µRendu circuitry would be placed in a nice, US made, chassis, with a a power supply as sophisticated as that of the Sonore Signature Rendu, the retail price would then be very similar.

[barrows]

You can watch a Raspberry Pi or ODROID with picoreplayer or max2play. you get a similar software and a good hardware for 50 €. Sound quality with auralic Aires no difference. With Micro Rendu it will be similar. The DAC determines the sound.

 

You clearly have no experience with the µRendu, hahaha!

[barrows]

Is the SSR enclosure CAD/CAM 'engineered to order' with industrial grade quality?

I thought it was just a standard case taken from a supplier that supply typically DIY-related products?

I understand that it is probably in the higher range of the scale with regard to quality and cost, but the cost significance seems a little overrated and fictitious, IMO for explaining the gap in $ between the uR and the SSR.

 

Distinctive: I would be interested in hearing of your experience with bringing high end products to market which gives you the knowledge to make such statements.

[barrows]

Nothing spesific with regards to audio, but lots of experience in my daily work for industrial exotic gear.

If this case is special made for Sonore by a non-DIY vendor, I have no problem apologizing for my view. It was actually a qustion and not a statement I made.....(?)

 

The Sonore Signature Rendu has a custom, made in the USA chassis, which is produced specifically for the unit. It is heavy gauge CNC machined aluminum, sides and front panel are of 1/4" stock, top panel is 1/8" stock, bottom and rear panels are heavy gauge steel with powdercoat and custom screened graphics. Internally there is a heavy gauge steel sub enclosure for screening the transformer.

[barrows]

Running a uPNP server on this hardware seems to me to completely defeat the purpose of the uRendu. The objective is to make a simple, optimised, electronically super-quiet renderer. Adding even the smallish overhead of a server would be counterproductive.

 

Low: The µRendu sounds very, very good running as DLNA server with Minimserver/Bubble running on a NAS. this does not defeat the purpose at all.

[barrows]

I have a Mac Mini with no SATA drive and only PCIe SSD, and JS-2 powered.

This uses USB output into a JS-2 powered REGEN then a Mutec MC-3+ USB (reclocking and USB to AES conversion) and into DAC (LHLabs Xfi/LPS) via the AES connection. My primary playback software is HQPlayer and Dirac Live running on the Mac Mini.

 

While I was initially interested in the microRendu it seems that all the benefits to SQ that it would provide are already achieved by my current signal path. I am curious as to whether it is believed by those with more experience with NAA mode running of HQPlayer, as well as the use of ethernet connected renderers, if the microRendu could make further improvements in SQ.

 

Nope, the µRendu will sound better than your Mini. You will hear about it from all the people who are getting in on the first batch, so no need to stress about it for a bit...

[barrows]

Barrows, isn't the micro rendu a DLNA renderer (rather than a DLNA server)? MinimServer is the DLNA server component, right?

 

My bad, all these terms confuse me ;-). For me, I am running Minimserver/Bubble on the NAS, and using the µRendu as the Renderer, as you point out.

[barrows]

I can HIGHLY recommend Roon with HQPlayer. I was a long time A+ user (besides J River and Pure Music) and find Roon VERY easy to use and it was not hard to initially set up. Plus the Roon Community at the Roon Forums is very helpful and the Roon guys are VERY responsive there.

 

Then there is the added benefit of the great sound of using HQP with Roon's great interface and info.

 

IMHO you would be better off just starting with the Roon/HQP or Roon as you can add HQP after you live with Roon for a bit. No need to worry what may or may not work and what kind of interface you will have to live with instead.

 

If you have not visited the Roon Labs web sit recently they have a better explanation of the ins and outs of Roon.

 

As a side, I was at a demo of Roon at one of the Audio Clubs I belong too this past Saturday and two of the principles of Roon did the demo and spent about four+ hours talking with the Club members (not just about Roon).

I can tell you the members are a TOUGH crowd and just about everyone was very impressed by Roon, this from a group that is very Vinyl centric. And quite a few bought lifetime memberships (also tough to get them to part with the cash) right on the spot.

 

Oh, one more thing. They are working on possible having more then just Tidel for streaming. But until it is a done deal they will not comment on who/if/when.

 

Yeah, I am interested in trying this as well, my ESS based DACs sound a little better with DSD vs PCM, and HQPlayer sending only DSD128 appears like it would be a great way to go. But, it is a big expense to add another computer, an HQPlayer license, and a ROON license, and I just cannot afford to do so at this point, no matter how I go about it!

[barrows]

It would be great if you could find out whether MSB is setup properly for native DSD on its Quad Rate USB interface.

 

Thanks.

 

Why so much concern about DSD with MSB DACs? You do realize that MSB converts DSD to a high rate PCM format for conversion, yes? In this case, it would not make sense to me to be worried about DSD 256 or 512 playback, as those rates are really only useful for those oversampling to them (HQPlayer), and if you are running an MSB DAC, I would expect the best sound quality sending it PCM. I am sure the MSB will do fine with DoP to DSD 128. The only reason to be concerned about Native DSD support is for rates higher than DSD 128. To be sure, there is no drawback to DoP for DSD 64/128.

[barrows]

How much computing power does the computer running this need?

 

A spec sheet of what is required for this device would be a really good idea.

 

A computer running what? The µRendu can work with just an ordinary NAS running Minimserver and nothing else.

[barrows]

I was under the impression that if you wanted to run HQ Player (which I don't) that it needs to run on an external computer. Is that not the case?

 

Yeah, if you want to run HQPlayer then you need a computer on the Network. But that is not necessary to use the µRendu. This would really be a question for an HQPlayer thread. My understanding is that HQPlayer and using it to oversample to high rates requires some real processing power.

[barrows]

OK, so I'm correct. Thought so. Thanks Barrows!

 

The point of the µRendu is to have the lowest possible processing power, combined with the bets possible USB output, and hence the best sonic performance. This way the device actually in the audio system is of very low noise, resulting in the best sound. One can choose many different ways to use it.

 

With HQPlayer, Jussi (Miska) has long advocated running the HQPlayer SW on a powerful computer, and then using a "NAA" attached by network, as the device in the audio system, as this approach keeps the noisy computer away from the audio system, while still allowing for the processing power required to run his sophisticated oversampling. The µRendu can be used as a "NAA" with HQPlayer, but that is just one way to take advantage of the µRendu's superior performance.

 

It is not necessary to use HQPlayer to enjoy the sonic benefits of the µRendu, just ruing it with a NAS/MinimServer will blow away just about any other USB source.

[barrows]

does it mean that with the uRendu there is no audio difference using roon in NAA mode or HQ player in NAA too or using with a Minimserver ?

 

This is not really a µRendu question and would be more appropriate for a different thread. You are asking about the difference between using HQPlayer/NAA or Minimserver as a DLNA type server over Ethernet. This would be more appropriate as its own thread or in an HQPlayer or Minimserver thread.

 

Whatever way one uses it, the µRendu will be the best USB source available.

[barrows]

How do you know if the shield really is utilized?

Most routers have a DC supply, and I am not sure if the RJ45 is commonly grounded at all times?

 

Grounding the shield in an Ethernet environment is a bad idea as far as i am concerned. This creates the possibilities of ground loops between the audio system and the (NAS, serving computer, router, etc.) I prefer the floating shield of CAT 6A. Additionally, every high speed engineer i talk to suggests that when one is considering MHz/GHz level noise, grounding via a wire is not low impedance enough to sink noise interference anyway. I keep the Ethernet cable floating with CAT 6A and have very natural sound, and virtually zero noise in my system (amp is Ncore, so almost nothing there).

I had (but it could be imagined, these differences are typically small) seemingly worse sound using CAT 7 with the shield grounded to the (metal shell) connectors.

[barrows]

I hear what you are saying, but what is the point of the shield if it is disconnected in both ends? I am an electronics engineer working with these things on a daily basis so something seem to have slipped by.....

 

I guess I would respond by saying: what is the purpose of the shield if it IS grounded, being that the impedance of the ground is likely too high to work at the frequencies involved anyway... I am not an EE, but the RF engineers I have asked about this all seem to suggest that grounding by conventional means is not effective at RF frequencies (besides at the PCB level re ground planes). My layperson view speculates that a shield will keep in some RF energy (reflecting it back) and therefore not be spraying as much RF about in proximity to the audio system.

I am skeptical of the idea of a ground "draining" anything. But a floating shield may still reflect, rather than absorb and "drain".

 

Perhaps if JS is still monitoring he might have some expert insight here? I must say, best performance for my system has been with BJC cable (made of Belden) CAT 6A with the floating shield. It may be that the same quality CAT 6 with no shield would be as good, I have not tried it.

[barrows]

In my setup I would power the uRendu with my HDPlex supply which also powers my CAPS server (and maybe even the router).

Is this potentially a compromise powering both units from the same supply (although HDPlex claims that the outlets are isolated) considering isolation is one of the benefits of this configuration?

 

I would highly recommend that you consider a separate supply from the supply which feeds your Server and router. The point of the µRendu is to get noise away from the audio system, you can best do this by removing the router and server from any proximity to your audio system physically, and by powering them from as isolated a branch of your AC supply as possible. Best is to power them in another room, from the other phase of your homes AC supply, as this gives the most isolation. then power the µRendu from a dedicated, ultra low noise and low impedance power supply. Despite the "isolation" claimed by Your HDPlex, this does nothing to isolate the AC supplies, and standard consumer parts like the MoBo in your CAPS and the power supply for the router are going to put lots of noise back out onto the AC line-ideally you want to remove this AC line noise source from any proximity to your audio system.

[barrows]

Thanks barrows for Your response, that's unfortunately what I already assumed...

 

To be entirely clear, of course you will still get excellent performance with the µRendu used as you describe, my recommendation is meant for best possible performance. So, you could start out as you describe, and then, upgrade to separate supplies and more isolation.

 

In my system I am using the µRendu with a proto power supply, but I still have the router and NAS in the same room. My plan is to move the router and NAS to another room, on the other phase of my AC supply, but I am waiting for the warmer weather of summer to do so, as I will be running Ethernet cabling on the outside of my house.