ECdesigns

[yogibear]

My first post here.
 

Just received my Power DAC R yesterday. My setup is very modest. A Matsushita 8PW1 Single driver full range open baffle driven by SE 6L6 in a modest size room. A windows laptop optimized for audio playing, streaming  from lossless collection or Spotify, Apple Music, and UT96 as the interface between the laptop and Power DAC. 
 

As recommended, I tried using the long 10 feet Toslink cable I bought but had to revert to short cable supplied by ECdesigns as it did not work. My first query as the difference between UT96 (Toslink input) and U192  ( Electrotos Input) to Power DAC seems to have been already answered in above posts. 
 

However my second query is, since I have played Fractal too in the same setup, is it just me that Fractal presented way darker / quite background than the Power DAC ? Could it be attributed to Electrotos input to Fractal ?

 

However Power DAC R is surely an upgrade over Fractal, sonically. 

[yogibear]

12 minutes ago, guls said:

For people who used Power DAC as well as DA96ETF, when used just as a pure DAC, how much of an upgrade is Power DAC over DA96ETF? Is it marginal or significant?

I guess it’s significant given its features as it weeds out need of a preamp too. However I don’t see the same dark exemplary background which was on the DA96 despite adding filtering to the mains power supply. My setup with Power DAC remains the same as it was with DA96.

 

Further I don’t know how much difference the absence of USB - Electrotos interface makes to Power DAC.

 

My third observation with Power DAC / UT96 combo: A longer 10 feet Toslink cable actually degraded the sound so I had to put the stock cable back. Today will try another longer cable and report my impressions. 
 

My setup is very simple and transparent to each component in the line up. 

[yogibear]

2 hours ago, Norton said:

 

Interesting to read your views (and perhaps between the lines...)

 

For me, both with the DA96ETF and the MOS16, it’s always been about the specific combination of the DAC and matching UPL.  I recently put the previous generation  ECD kit back in my system after some absence and was reminded that with U192 the DA96ETF was OK but nothing special, but with the UPL the old wow factor was back.  
 

I struggle with the notion of source immunity with the PowerDAC because to me that also implies absolute source equivalence - for example,  I’m sceptical  that clever DAC design is ever  going to make Qobuz PC desktop sound identical to replay from a dedicated and directly attached local transport /storage ( unless of course  the latter is being somehow levelled down in order to do so).

 

Have you been able to compare the PowerDAC with UPL vs UT96, or indeed PowerDAC/UPL with DA96ETF/UPL?

 

One clarification: I do not use preamp in my line up. The DHT Tube preamp is sitting duck and another nice SS, already sold.

 

Changed the stock Toslink to a 2 meter / 6 feet cable. No degradation in sonics this time. So this is settled.

 

I like to keep simple and short line up. Mine is an audio optimized windows laptop connected to Power DAC, which feeds my DIY tube amp mono blocks driving single full range drivers on large L shape open baffles. 

 

Never used UPL so no experience here. First it was U192ETL with DA96ETF and now its Power DAC R with UT96. However I would love to someday couple PD with U192ETL.

 

The U192ETL / DA96ETF is now with a friend who has a respectable TT and Vinyl collection. His observation is consistent with mine on the combo. Very very dark..... He loves the DAC so much that he takes very long time gaps to go back to his Vinyl setup. He has had many popular branded DACs in his stable. (Under $10K) He loves the DA96ETF and says all other DACs should "go back to school". (No arguments here, just sharing his views)

 

I have dedicated earth in my house, in fact two, each 15 feet deep, running a solid thick copper strip running all to the power distribution box.

 

I have had many DACs, nothing too special, first being Objective DAC and last two were DIY R2R based on monolith AD1862 and AD1856. The notion of rolling opamps made be uncomfortable. I sold them all to fund PD purchase. I have no regrets..... Only wish is to try Electrotos input over Toslink. 

 

One aspect I loved with DA96ETF / U192ETL with bundle purchase was, each cable was made by ECD. I wish the USB with PD was also made by ECD too... (Expecting Toslink to be made by them is unnecessary)  

 

In a recent blind test, RCA cables made by ECD were compared with 10X expensive branded RCA (well regarded) and there was no noticeable diffrence heard by any of the listeners, with DA96ETF / U192ETL combo. (Am no fan of "superb sounding cables",  just sharing one observation.)

 

 

[yogibear]

On 7/29/2021 at 10:38 PM, hopkins said:

 

You may not take my point of view seriously 🙂 but I did a lot of back and forth between the UT96 and the U192 and could not hear a difference. 

 

Your observation of a darker background on the DA96 are so far unique. I don't believe others have found this (I have not, but will check again). 

 

Interesting that you compared the ECD analog cables. I've been meaning to do so, but have not gotten around to it. 

 

I've been using my Coincident analog cables simply because I need the extra length, and the ECD interlinks are quite stiff. Also, the ECD cable's RCA jacks are super tight on the PowerDAC's terminals, so it's a bit of a struggle every time I take them off, which is quite often as I alternate between speakers and headphones. Will get back to some tests at some point.

 

 

 

I trust you on no difference between UT96 and the U192. But I guess Electrotos is one fantastic piece of component, I should have in my collection as an interface. 

 

ECD RCA cable are for me like, "look no more at options for line level cables" and nor even try DIY. They are little stiff coz of the shielding but I use short cables so are fine with me. 

 

ECD innovations / components are keeper for life for me, and I hope to indulge more in them in future. Power DAC R is aging like a fine wine...... Details extraction and HF extension is exemplary. And of course its very musical. 

 

 

[yogibear]

18 hours ago, Bram1103 said:

Following this discussion for a while. I am looking for a DAC that comes close or surpassing analogue sources. 

 

I have now the DDDAC 1794 DAC of Doede Douma but for me this is not the way to go. Takes out the soul and emotion of the music especially with classical music.

 

Is the EDC Power DAC-R the DAC that I am looking for?

 

I know it is a matter of taste but still, looking for direction of people that have heard or own this DAC.

This might give you a clue: 

“ The U192ETL / DA96ETF is now with a friend who has a respectable TT and Vinyl collection. His observation is consistent with mine on the combo. Very very dark..... He loves the DAC so much that he takes very long time gaps to go back to his Vinyl setup. He has had many popular branded DACs in his stable. (Under $10K) He loves the DA96ETF and says all other DACs should "go back to school". (No arguments here, just sharing his views) “

 

Power DAC R is a step up over DA96ETF. I would say, both DAC from ECD are very musical and emotionally engaging….

[yogibear]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

I recorded a track from the output of the PowerDAC and the Khadas Tone Board DAC. The recording obviously involves Analog to Digital conversion, so you may not get the same result as when listening to the output of the two DACs directly, but I assume that if there are differences they could be still heard? 

 

 

Unfortunately, the volume is not identical, so you will have to match the volume yourself when playing the tracks. Let me know if you hear any differences...

You should be able to download them from these two links (opening the link will play the tracks, but click on the three dots to the right of the embedded player and you'll see a download option).

 

https://storage.googleapis.com/cloudplayer/Feuilles Mortes/17.wav

 

https://storage.googleapis.com/cloudplayer/Feuilles Mortes/19.wav

second one is PD. 19.wav Tonally better. Am I correct ?

[yogibear]

5 minutes ago, Jacob said:

Hello To all.

I took a pause writing here since was waiting for my USB to Toslink converter.

The one i bought is from NobSound , after confiding with Gordon (from EC) - 
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Digital-Interface-Coaxial-Optical-Adapter/dp/B08GYWTY4Y/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=Nobsound+Mini+XMOS+XU208+USB&qid=1628539450&s=electronics&sr=1-2

 

It works perfectly, it can be powered but also PASIVE and i use it like this.

I recomend to order from Amazonm it arrive super fast.... my first unit from NobSound is still on the way after 1 month...

 

While i was waiting ... I got here The Memory Player NUC !!!
I want to thank someone here that mantiond them since inever knew that they excist,

 

As i wrote before  - once you step up with the DAC ... and the PD is one of the best if not THE BEST - everything start to matter.

Every part in the audio chain become more important since the resolution and clarity is so high you just start to notice things that are simply were not visable before.
I also advice to use Intona USB isolator 7055C . Far better than 7054 models!!

 

So here is my setup:
1. Memory Player NUC
2. simple USB 
3. Intona 7055C
4. Neotech NEUB-1020 USB cable 
5. NobSound Mini XMOS converter
6. EC PD optical cable
7. EC Power DAC
8. Kennerton Rognir Headphone
or

* Neotech NEVD-2010 x2 as Interconnect
* AURIS Ueterpe
* Kennerton Rognir Headphone

Most of the time i use the Auris amp since it is more convinient to adjust the volume with different headphones - and YES direct connect to PD sounds BETTER !

The Memory Player NUC is simply amazing source  - as the PD came along it is  become very clear that the file source is super critical.
For Comparison i use QLS390 as a WAV player simulating HQ CD transport - it was the best sound .... until the MP NUC came and killed it :):)

A few days ago i had couple of friends came over, they are Pro guys that have HQ equipment from Music MIxing - they were FLOORED by the sound !! As I AM TOO.

We try to describe the sound here and this is not easy... how can you describe Analogue sound from Digital source? 
Well .... as always with audio  - you will have to try yourself :):)

Anyone wish to contact me - +972-54-9333389  Jacob. Please use WhastApp.

P.S - i just try to use PD with a Power Bank insted of the Power Suply - and it worked quite well.
I will do more test and compare.

Thanks for confirming that, that nbsound interface works fine for you. I in fact suggested it to a friend but was not completely sure that it would work just fine. 

[yogibear]

4 hours ago, Khronos said:

Hello. Due to monetary reasons I won't be able to meaningfully contribute to this thread with real experiences. But I've spent this last hour comparing samples of the KDTB and the ECDPB with the original song. At first, I thought the Khadas and the PD were closely matched with a slight nod to the PD due to the lack of "stepping" (a transition between sounds, as if the sound was climbing some stairs between transients) and the fact it wasn't as forward, less harsh. Though I wouldn't have blamed anybody for not hearing differences.

 

But there was something that kept at it in my brain. I can't tell what it was. So I jumped over to YouTube and mentally compared the tonality of the PowerDAC to several other dacs through Youtube. Call it insanity, but I can archive the way something sounds due to strange brain DSP (I am not sure what it is or whether I belong in a mental hospital). MSB Select II: Midrange Bump. Aries Cerat Kassandra Ref: One of the most tone Deaf DACs I've heard. PD Dream DAC: Stepping is like an upwards slide (Something I understand people would love) but lacks some Gestalt in its tone. I turned over to this shootout (

)

 

And checked my usual boxes. In my opinion the LAB12 actually sounds best, and was hereto my reference due to perfectly natural timbre coupled with spacious sound and non-existent stepping (it starts and stops!). I can easily hear how the amp actually holds back the rest of the system. I kept comparing. Turned back to the WAVs, turned back to YouTube, to the original. Something told me "This lacks palpability, flow" and some other words that don't have meaning outside of my brain. Then in a whim I turned over to recording 18.

 

There was absolutely no difference between recording and original.

 

Everything was there, just slightly quieter. I could wax lyrically about the sound but the best way I could describe it is "this breaks the dogma of digital versus analog". It unfettered the recording. How could this be possible? I am not an engineer, but I have a small understanding of ECD Technology  based on Mr. Brown's post. If memory serves, this has 6800uF or so of buffer capacity, similar to the famed Bakoon International AMP-13R. Yet to my knowledge the latter sounds effortless albeit lacking tone weight. At the beginning of writing this post I thought it could be an issue with the actual capacity of the buffer until I remembered the AMP-13R. Thus came in the second suspect: Slew Rate. How quickly can the caps inject juice into the sound? The Power Supply is at least as important as the signal path so chances are this buffer could be holding things back due to mismatched slew rate or something (mind that this runs at a maximum speed of 192khz) thus summoning weird electrical shenanigans that could not particularly be foreseen and creating this problem. I've seen film capacitors being used in parallel so perhaps this could be a fixture for the problem, something worth considering for the more heavy-weight Powerdac-S (the beast I am saving up for). Though for most, just running it one or two notches lower and adding a bit of extra gain at preamp would work. This sounds like a hassle, but let me explain. The Powerdac-R is €1500. People spend ten times as much in a single USB cable. If the DAC actually sounds like sample 18 I think the PD may have the rights to be called the best DAC in the world. Unmatched. Capable of going against the MSB Select II, the Chord DAVE, the Lampizator Pacific, and possibly better them. A true case of David versus Goliath. And even against the LAB12, i think they are both more complementary than anything. I truly hope ECD follows the steps of Soekris and begins OEMing the board. Even at the same cost of the PowerDAC with everything included it's relatively speaking almost highway robbery.

 

It is 1:30 AM. I admit I just made an account to say this.

 

Therefore I think the inner PSU lacks some sort of slew rate. I can't hear the usual signs of the recorder clipping (death of DR coupled with a heaviness of midrange) so I can't think that was the problem. Unless the universe is pulling a Lejonklou (look up the Lejonklou SINgularity story) and there's two resistor values that surpass the rest I truly can't think of another reason.

 

Do you have any comments on this? Opinions? I am not a golden ears (more like insane teenager) but I thought this could be a worthy attempt to shed light on the conundrum. 

 

PostData: Hello, I'm new to audiophilestyle. I hope I don't annoy people too much.

I can echo your impressions with mine. I have been a full range driver fan playing in different open baffle configurations. Majority of DIYers are full range drivers haters. I am just lucky to have some rare drivers, vintage nos which have respectable frequency response from 17k down to under 75hz. (Measured and confirmed on REW). Playing them with a short simple chain enables me to do very fair comparison of amps and DAC and even the drivers themselves too.
 

I have been fiddling with PD in my chain for long and have found it sounds and shows it’s prowess when it’s clicked above 7 in my setup. The details and HF extension along with the natural vocals and effortless play back is exemplary.

 

Though I cannot still confirm the source independence but with great recordings, it’s beyond belief and gives non stop, unlimited joy. 

[yogibear]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

 

I have always fantasized about vintage full range drivers. I got a hold of a pair of Zenith, these: 

 

http://www.glowinthedarkaudio.com/zenith-49cz852.html

 

I tested them in an open baffle. Very easy to drive, impressive dynamics and detail, but it was not satisfying for every day listening, just a really interesting "experiment". Can you share more information about your setup? 

 

Concerning the volume setting of the PD, which amplifier do you use it with? 

 

Kevin from glowinthedarkaudio and I have a few amps and FR drivers in common, playing in Open baffle. Though I never had much space for Telefunken Open baffle but may be soon by year end. I too have the same 12" Zenith drivers. They make surprising bass in my L shape Open Baffle. My current baffles are 24" X 40" from front and 18" deep on one side, along the walls, to avoid cavity resonance from the walls. (Side baffle and side walls will do that, so aligned the side baffles of L shape to the walls.)

 

The room is pretty modest, 11'X12' and far from ideal for my OB design but still enjoyable. The current drivers are (retrofitted on the 12" driver cutouts) 8" Matsushita / Technics / National Panasonic 8PW1, kind of triaxial coz of cone design with a phase plug, alnico, 95dB and only 8 watts RMS. In my little experience, high dB FR drivers mate well with a few watts of tube amps. The amps are well designed with excellent frequency response and low distortion. I have a few different amps. Currently playing is PSE 6080 mono blocks with volume controls and make 5 wpc. I have setup the volume on the amp at mid way and control the music level through PD remote.  Not a good looking setup as I am always experimenting. Have also built 2 way with bass assisted by 15" drivers. 

 

Picture of setup attached.

[yogibear]

6 hours ago, realDHT said:

 (when changing volume its sends out a DC pulse that is amplified by the ASP and makes things somewhat scary (moves my bass cones several centimeters).

 Same here with my high dB FRs. Plan to add woofers which will be 103 dB, so will be very scary. But am not so sure / confident to mod PD.

[yogibear]

4 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

OK to post one of your videos? 

 

 

 

Sure.... I wonder how you reached it ! I will testing my all other FRs too on the same baffle with the PD playing. Cannot help room reflections and all these are iPhone recorded so these just give an idea of what PD as a DAC is doing. In person, it sounds amazing in my current experimental setup. Hopefully a new setup in a large room by year end, all driven by PD. 

[yogibear]

5 minutes ago, tims said:

Sounds great!  That track is very familiar- what is the song/artist?

Thanks

Thanks. “Shape of my heart”

 

Please Search “Novecento, Dominic Miller” on Spotify. 

[yogibear]

1 hour ago, realDHT said:

I have not really noticed any SQ degradation using 64 bit volume control in JRiver/HQplayer etc, so in my opinion, PD set for full volume and using 64 bit software volume is a viable alternative too.

 

BTW I also like the combination of good tube amps and high sensitivity FR drivers, I can imagine those go well with the ECD dacs :)  

 

 

 

Actually tried something very similar today. JRiver 64 bit acts as a virtual sound card on my laptop. PD set to full volume at 9. Tube amp volume half way. SQ is another level now. Staggering I would say......

 

Music Volume controlled through my phone at the software level on the laptop.

[yogibear]

Just now, matthias said:

 

So DVC of JRiver is superior to VC of the PD?

 

Matt

No, it would not be fair to conclude. I guess it should depend on the input sensitivity and the gain / power of the amp used. 

[yogibear]

21 hours ago, realDHT said:

 

BTW I also like the combination of good tube amps and high sensitivity FR drivers, I can imagine those go well with the ECD dacs :)  

 

 

I am sorry but I must confess. PD at 9 is incredible in my setup. I stopped thinking about any other DAC or even DA96. My speakers are not even remotely optimized wrt to the build. PD is closest to “Analogue Music Machine” for me.  
 

I wonder what PD S2 will do…..

[yogibear]

4 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

I am seriously wondering too. If it delivers on the promise including amplification enough to drive high efficiency full range speakers, it will be a revolutionary product.

 

Part of me is hoping it won't as most of my system (especially my Decware tube mono amps) and all the work I have put into getting it this far could be obsolete!

Same here. I have a big collection of tube amps and many are under way…. 
 

I guess it will make the whole classic way of sound reproduction redundant ! 

[yogibear]

6 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

The fact we are even talking about this in relation to a DAC costing so little should garner significant interest. In reality most of us audiophiles are very (emotionally) attached and rightly so, to what we have invested in and built up over time. Even if it was proven or reported that a Taiko extreme sounded no different to a Rpi as source through a PowerDAC, I doubt many would believe it. I'm certainly curious as it would simplify life tremendously.

And I am already wondering the oversimplification PD S2 will offer….

 

What about those flea power tube amps and SS Class A amps !  Does one whole chain gets weeded out ? 

[yogibear]

I guess 6 wpc is a lot to play around with single drivers and MT or MTM combos….

 

And may be high dB (103 plus) full OB combos too ? 

 

In one recent instance just 1.25 wpc of interstage driven tube 46 drove a huge WWMTWW OB ensemble with great authority…. 

[yogibear]

9 hours ago, Bram1103 said:

I have an appointment with ECD later this week to listen to their PowerDac S1 direct connected to their open baffle speakers. They will also demonstrate the PowerDac R with their tube power amps together with the open baffles. They want to let me hear the difference between the two systems. 

 

ECD is very very positive about the PowerDac S1

 

I will send an update of this experience.

Looking forward to your impressions. I wish PD S2 was also available for exact same comparison. S2 should really shine with their OBs. And am particularly curious on how it compares to combo of PD R plus tube amps driving the same OB. 
 

Not sure what are the specs on the amplification part of S2 and particularly the harmonics. 

 

 

[yogibear]

17 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

I should have replied that I will be glad to take a break from this thread and not have to deal with idiotic comments like this any longer 😅  The person who "upvoted" you also deserves a crown! I wanted to share my enthusiasm for ECD's products, but I am sick of dealing with all this BS.  People who are curious and open to new ideas will be able to understand and appreciate the work of ECD on their own without the need for a babysitter. 

I love what they are doing…. Coz it has transformed my setup to what I always dreamt of. Now the bottlenecks are my own speakers and the room….

 

And I really look forward to their new offerings….. S2 particularly. 

[yogibear]

Power output I guess. S2 is 6 wpc and S1 may be 3 wpc. 

[yogibear]

Pulled out my vintage JVC to use as transport. Playing audio CDs and connected the optical output to the Power DAC R. Not bad at all and brutally honest with quality of recordings / CDs. 
 

The tube amps are 6080 PSE Pure Class A, no NFB. 

[yogibear]

10 minutes ago, Huubster said:

 

Since you went all balistic on your PD, I have a question for you if I may so 🙂

 

A friend of mine has the PD too and he did a fairly simple mod by exchanging those two huge browns caps on the above picture with well known versions from Elna Silmic ii Gold (Gold = Japanese making).

 

He's quitte shocked by how much the sound changed, actually improved to his opinion. You went through all the trouble of completely modding the PD, have you ever contemplated about doing this type of mod yourself?  

 

I have a few of those Japanese Silmic ii on order coming from China and will try it for myself as well, but it will take some time before I get them.

 

By the way, the 16v 10.000uf of Silmic versions are way too big to fit, my friend replaced them with 1.000uf Silmic versions, which actually have the same size as the brown 10.000uf versions. 

Very interesting but isn’t lower capacitance not recommended according to the design ?

 

This is unsettling for me as I never wanted to mod mine …..

[yogibear]

S1 is 3 watts and S2 will be 6 watts per channel as I know of it. I wonder if these two models can also be used as stand alone DAC and can be connected to an external amp. 

[yogibear]

When is S2 slated to be introduced and will it be upgrade only wrt power output Or would be significant upgrade in other DAC aspects too ? I mean over S1.