UpTone Audio REGEN Power Supply Add-On

[Superdad]

Alright, guess it is time for an official update on the mystery piece:

 

John and I recently made some heavy technical decisions on the development of our new supply (the whole thing really is a mind-blower and even has an FPGA in it) so that the "brains" of it can be used and scaled in multiple ways--for both licensing to other manufacturers, DIY, and vastly higher amperage versions (such high-amperage versions would not be for at least another year and the first of such will likely be a good bit more expensive than a JS-2--so don't stop ordering JS-2s!). So the release of the affordable, 1A, 5/7V version--for REGEN and other uses--has been delayed until very early 2016.

Given the nature of what we are attempting, it is better to do it right than to do it fast. Still, John is working furiously (but happily) on it many hours per week. It is just that PCB turn-around time, coding, testing, etc. all make the weeks roll by.

 

With regards the selling plan: The new supply (think I even posted a picture of the case upthread somewhere) will initially be sold 3 ways (but the unit itself is always exactly the same):

 

1) As a complete and usable by anyone product--needing a selectable 5V/1A, 7V/1A--kit with a 12V/1.5A SMPS "energizing" unit;

 

2) As an add-on for people who already have a REGEN and will use the 7.5V/2.93A SMPS that came with the REGEN to "energize" the new supply (Or for those who have some other suitable LPS or SMPS they wish to feed it--12V/1.5A, 9V/2A, or 7.5V/2.5A min.; remember, the "energizing" supply will have ZERO effect on the final output, but if the rest of your system does not like SMPS harmonics injecting into the mains then an LPS could be chosen--LPSs, unless choke-filtered, also kick crap back into the wall--just at much lower frequencies.)

 

3) As a bundle with a REGEN, in which case the powering SMPS is likely to be an easier to source and perhaps slightly small 12V/1.5A unit.

 

Variations "2)" and "3)" will offer a modest savings since one less SMPS need be shipped.

 

And all versions will come with a 70cm, 16awg coax with 5.5mm x 2.1mm plugs at both ends. This is a custom cable I had 1,000 units made of--and with a right-angle plug at one end per some requests. Here is a pic:

 

[Superdad]

Are you gonna post any measurements that would compre pre/post output of the device ?

[/img]

 

Once the new little LPS is done, I am sure we will publish some measurements. But they will certainly be wider bandwidth than 0-20Khz. Never do understand why people bother posting just audio band graphs for PS noise measures. Got to go wideband baby!

 

And to SandyK's point: While I doubt we will try to measure the impact of the LPS on the analogue output as a means to quantify its performance (nice ideal, but rather difficult in practice for a host of reasons), John certainly is interested in showing off the dynamic load abilities of his new design.

 

Trust me, when this thing comes out there will be oodles of discussion about concept, execution, and performance. It is going to be lots of fun. And every time John tells me about how complicated the widget has become, I say "Good, the harder it will be to copy!"

 

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

Alex C

Do you also have a little Elf sandpapering the labelling off the I.C.s ? (grin)

Kind Regards

Alex K.

 

No, but it is a 4-layer board, thus a lot of stuff gets buried and difficult to sort out. But as mentioned, we are highly likely to offer DIY and OEM versions so that this tech can get integrated into all sorts of PS forms. A couple of modules plus would make the "brains" of a awesome bipolar supply for inside a preamp or DAC.

But now I am getting ahead of this thing and should shut up.

[Superdad]

Now you REALLY have my attention, and I imagine that of quite a few other members !

 

Yes, 2016 is going to be very interesting for us. Now if I can only get to the bottom of my dang e-mail in-box!

 

--AJC

 

P.S. Alex K.: Have you seen David L. yet? Did he give you something?...

[Superdad]

So I guess I won't be able to use this add-on supply for my Darbee Darblet 5000 HDMI Video Enhancer that has had it's wallwart 5v 1a SMPS replaced with a tabletop MeanWell much like the Regen's?

 

Why not? The mystery supply will output both (slide switch selectable) 5V/1A or 7V/1A. It will be just right for your video enhancer.

[Superdad]

Can one of the power units run two REGENs with appropriate splitter and cables?

 

Absolutely!

[Superdad]

Where does that leave my 5v Meanwell?

 

In a drawer. A 5V/1A SMPS won't power any UpTone product.

[Superdad]

Thanks Alex but I was specifically asking for John's thought.

 

I'll try to be more clear:

 

A) The mystery DC-DC supply can output only 5V or 7V (selectable via small switch);

 

B) The device is being designed to be flexible enough to have its "energizing" supply--completely divorced from the final output of the device--be in the range of 7.5V to 12V.

This is being done specifically so that the couple thousand 7.5V/22W Mean Wells shipped with REGENs can be used with it. And 12V at the other end of the range as those are more available and at that higher voltage a lower amperage (1.5A) is enough for our device.

 

Sorry if I confused people by prematurely explaining the planned sales configurations. The 1A, 5/7V device itself will exist in only one version. But what if any SMPS it comes with will vary.

 

Regards,

Alex C.

 

P.S. Alex K. is f course correct in his explanation of regulators needing to be fed at a slightly higher voltage that the desired output. But for reasons we do not wish to disclose yet, his explanation does not apply to our forthcoming product--at least not with regards the energizing supply (yet it does happen to be set to require voltages higher than its output).

[Superdad]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]21194[/ATTACH]

Would such an older Yamaha PA-5 (linear, stabilized PSU originally designed to supply keyboards) be adequate? It delivers 12V/2A. I could get one unused for quite cheap. But I have no idea if and how much crap it kicks back into the wall and if there would be any benefit compared to the Meanwell SMPS. What would you think?

 

First--because there is concurrent discussion of powering the REGEN itself going on here this morning--let's confirm that you are asking about using that Yamaha 12V supply next year with our new "mystery" DC-DC supply, correct?

Don't use 12V supplies directly into the REGEN unless you are 100% certain that the DAC is not drawing ANY 5VBUS power.

 

Now with regards to the possibly suitability of that Yamaha PS: What you need to make certain of is that it is a REGULATED supply and not just an UNREGULATED unit. Just because it is a linear as opposed to switch-mode supply does not mean it is a regulated unit. Could have just a transformer, diodes, and a couple of caps. That is often the case with linear "bricks."

 

You can test for this because an UNregulated supply will put out a fair amount higher voltage unloaded. So just plug it into the wall and stick your multimeter probes into/on the DC output barrel jack. If you get 13+ volts then it is not a regulated supply and will not be appropriate for either the REGEN or our new PS.

 

Best,

 

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

Sbooster! Goodness Alex/John... It's the Regen economy!

 

Should I make some joke about "power supply-side economics" or "the trickle-down-charge economy?" Oh wait that would be Reagan not REGEN.

[Superdad]

Whats this "Mystery" PSU you speak of?

 

It is actually the original subject of this entire thread.

Please refer to this post for an update about the product--due early next year: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f27-uptone-audio-sponsored/uptone-audio-regen-power-supply-add-24963/index16.html#post468055

 

It has been called the "mystery" or the "whaeveritis" or "Voldemort" because there is a core aspect to it that we are not yet ready to reveal. REGEN fans had been getting worked up about a better PS for the REGEN and I let on that we have been working on something really cool and unexpected. Then jtwrace started this thread about it--far sooner than I ever would have wished--and continued to tease out hints about it from us.

The core of the piece has grown in sophistication and we decided to step back and take a longer term view about our plans--hence what was originally targeted for October release is now moved to early 2016.

 

Hope that clears and muddies things up a bit for you.

[Superdad]

sdube,

Ok, I think I have a conclusion.

Drum roll please....

The 2 Regens by themselves was not as good as in combo with the iFi.

But!...

The best combo is having the Regens plugged into the iFi. The iFi then goes into the Dac. Absolutely the best sound so far.

 

A few questions:

a) To be clear, you are referring to the new iFi micro iUSB3.0, correct?

b) Is the USB port (that you are using) on your computer a USB 2.0 or 3.0 port?

c) If it is a USB 3.0 port, then when you attach the iUSB3.0 (as the first device after your computer) are you using a USB 3.0 cable?

 

I ask this because one of the chief differences between the REGEN and the iUSB3.0 (aside from more elaborate circuitry--especially on the power side--and the need for a second cable) is their use of a USB 3.0 hub chip. While I don't know of ANY DACs supporting USB 3.0's SuperSpeed mode (even if they have a USB 3.0-style input jack), I am assuming, based on iFi's marketing, that they support the 5 Gbit/sec SuperSpeed mode between the computer and the iUSB3.0 if one uses a 3.0 cable with the extra pins.

 

So I think to be fair to the iUSB3.0, it ought to be evaluated--by itself--based on use of a 3.0 cable between it and the computer. And when doing so, one should check their computer's profiler utility to see if it is communicating with the iUSB3.0 in SuperSpeed mode. There may or may not be benefit to that, but to my mind that would be the correct way to begin to assess the product.

 

Regards,

 

ALEX

[Superdad]

The color has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with it. It is literally incredible to me that you fellas don't know the difference.

 

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]21428[/ATTACH]

 

THIS is a usb 3,0 cable. Feel free to point out where there is a provision for it in the iUSB3.

 

The picture you posted is of a USB 3.0 micro 'B' cable. The input to the iFi micro iUSB3.0 device is a USB 3.0 'B' jack, and its outputs are USB 3.0 'A' jacks. Whether they run SuperSpeed on any of these or if that matters is another matter.

[Superdad]

I know you are an audio designer and engineer, but also thought you are a Renaissance man, who wore many hats.

 

Come to think of it, I've actually NEVER seen John wear a hat.

[Superdad]

Note even metaphorical ones. (A bit lame, I know.)

 

Well he ALWAYS has his thinking cap on. Even when he sleeps.

We roomed together at CES and he said he woke up every morning at 4:00 a.m. for a couple of hours (while I snored away) and worked through engineering problems in his head.

I guess genius is like that--striking at all hours. I wouldn't know.

 

Have a great weekend everyone.

 

--Alex C.

 

P.S. the mystery LPS (original subject of this thread) this week moved into the next development stage. With luck things should progress smoothly from here, but I still think that very early 2016 is the realistic target for production.

[Superdad]

John and Alex, at what point of the R&D process are you planning to disclose details about the technology? Are you going to wait until you have your initial production board?

 

That's about right. We are a bit off schedule, but given the broad implications of what it is (broader than just the first 5/7V 1A model), it is worth doing right. Still, John and I have been discussing the timing of disclosure--that will probably be when the pre-production boards are running at board house, sometime in late February I expect. I had wanted to wait until full production boards, etc. are on order, but I don't want to wait so long that people lose interest. One we reveal there will be a lot talk about.

 

And this new PS is far from the only thing we have up our sleeves for the first half of this year.

 

 

Personally, I wouldn't divulge details before they are available, in order to delay the inevitable copycats, just like those that have come out of the woodwork to cash in on the success of John and Alex C's USB Regen.

 

Given what has gone into it, this new PS architecture is going to be pretty hard to copy, so we are not too worried.

 

Have been pretty heads down getting 16 JS-2s built and tested (plus another 150 REGENs out the door) since returning from vacation on the 4th. So if I have forgotten to say so before, Happy New Year to everyone!

 

Best,

--ALEX C.

[Superdad]

Yes! I am sure it will......

 

Very presumptuous of you. But as it turns out, I was discussing this with John just the other night. And while 7V will be the max for this supply, it will not be hard for him to program in a third level at 3.3V. Now it is up to me to find a small 3-position PCB mount switch with distinct detents.

 

3.3V could be nice not only for some computer rail injection, but maybe more broadly for DIY board projects where lots of chips want 3.3V or 5V.

We'll see.

 

Great strides are being made on the supply this very week. Not ready to announce a ship date or to spill the beans on the tech, but it won't be long.

 

I can promise it will have been worth the wait.

 

Best,

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

Any info on what output connector will be on this device?

2.5mm DC barrel connectors like the JS2? It would be great if I could use the same cable that came with my JS2. Please?

 

Sorry, 5.5mm x 2.1mm for both input and output. Matches the REGEN and the class of devices that people will power with this 1A supply. It will come with a 68cm cable with 2.1mm barrel plugs at both ends (one is even 90-degree per request). Already had 1,000 of them custom made.

 

That said, since moving production of it to an outside firm, we are now able to sell widely the heavy gauge Oyaide/Belden shielded, star-quad cable (what came with your JS-2) to anyone. And I am stocking it in all 3 combinations: 2.5mm>2.5mm, 2.5mm>2.1mm, and 2.1mm>2.1mm--all only in 1.5meter length. They have been $60, but once I put them up on their own page on my web site I am likely to set the price at $70. Costs have gone up and that is still VERY competitive for a 15awg cable with those nice plugs (the only kind that will take that big wire). No fancy woven outer sleeve, no silver-plating. What matters for a DC cable is wire gauge and shielding.

 

John and I hope to be sharing more and making announcements soon. The mystery of this "mystery LPS" should be revealed soon! Then there will be plenty to talk about.

 

Have a great weekend everyone.

 

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

Huge thanks for the info. As long as it comes with its own cable. What is the quality like of that cable? Same construction as the ones with the Oyaide/Belden? Or more of a stock cable? If it is different will there be a purchase option to get the Oyaide/Belden with the unit, replacing the stock?

 

So it will provide 5v, 7v and perhaps 3.3v and has 2.1mm DC out connector.

If it works with the Regen stock Meanwell supply, then it has a 2.1mm DC input and accepts at least 7.5v. Does it accept a range of input voltages for charging?

 

And will we be able to order on your announcement?

 

Well the 27-inch cables I had made are a 16awg coax, so they really should be quire fine for the amperage. But yes, as mentioned, a web page for our more elaborate Oyaide/Belden, 15awg, star-quad, shielded cable will soon allow for those to be added to an order, and 2.1mm>2.1mm will be one of the options for those who wish to go all out with the new supply (or who need the 1.5m length that one comes in).

 

As for the "energizing" supply. The range and current requirements for it will be:

7.5V/2.5A (the Mean Well is 7.5V/2.93A and we are having the mystery LPS accept 7.5V specifically so existing REGEN users can use the piece they have);

9V/2.0A

12V/1.5A. 12V will be the max, and yes, it needs to be 1.5A to energize this special 1A DC-DC LPS.

 

When people buy the complete supply on its own (as opposed to having us omit the AC>DC adapter because they already have one from a REGEN or some other that falls in the range), it will come with a 12V/1.5A adaptor. Most likely it will be a small SMPS (which matters not one bit to the final DC output of our isolated LPS), but I am also searching for an inexpensive tabletop regulated linear tat won't kick as much back into the wall as an SMPS. These have become very rare--at least in the 12V/1.5A range--as SMPS have taken over the world. Most of the linear adaptors available are wall-warts (not that I am completely opposed), but there are NONE of those offering 12V/1.5A (that's a big transformer and electronics to put on the wall).

 

I am also really not fond of wall warts (SMPS or otherwise) because for international sale one needs to either stock them with each of the plug types (and sort and track buyers, etc.), of include the kind with the snap-on plugs. Then do we include every plug for every buyer just for ease of inventory/order fulfillment, or just give the right one to each buyer. If everybody all the plastic plugs for all the countries (what a waste), then the cost ends up such that I'd rather put the money into a better "tabletop" supply and not make people fight with fitting a wall wart onto their power strip or wall (always a pain).

 

Obviously that's what I did with the REGEN, and I purposely chose an adaptor with an IEC outlet so everyone in each country could just plug a local "computer cord" into it (or cut the plug off the 18-inch USA one included). This worked out well since in the case of just the REGEN with an SMPS, the quality of the supply made a sonic difference. That 22W/2.93A was not chosen because the REGEN draws such crazy current (it doesn't), but because that Mean Well has the largest amount of output capacitance for its price-class and physical size. It sonically beat a whole pile of other warts, tabletops, and even an 800mA linear.

 

Anyway, I share this all as insight into the challenge of finding just the right affordable and customer-friendly power adaptor at a reasonable price. I suppose if we were in the position to buy a few thousand all at once then we could have something custom made, but at that point we have other ideas (both SMPS and LPS units still kick harmonics back into the wall--and maybe we will at some point offer something inexpensive that does not; right now, our JS-2, by virtue of its choke filtering, is the only power-factor-corrected LPS on the market--it conducts over 97% of the AC waveform so its diodes kicks virtually zero harmonics back into the wall).

 

Oh, here are pics of both the DC cable that will come with the new supply, and a shot of the case itself (before machining and silkscreening). BTW, found the 3-postion slide switch last night (don't like toggle switches for output voltage--too easy to bump in the wrong position), so the supply will definitely offer 3.3/5/7V selections.

 

Best,

--Alex C.

 

P.S. You asked about ordering. Am planning to have the web page up on the day we reveal the tech--mostly so the page can answer a few of the obvious questions people will have. I had been planning to accept advance orders upon announcement--but that depends upon how close we are to production at that moment. While the idea was to announce while production boards were in fully in process (a well-defined 30-day window) and everything else (packaging, etc. was set), John and I are anxious to spill the beans a bit sooner--if only so people don't loose interest and wander off. But I am deeply opposed to taking money from people without a fully tested product in final production at the board house. Other firms do that and it rarely ends well...

 

 

[Superdad]

Hi,

 

Can you tell us what the price will be?

 

Not yet. It is a sophisticated piece (over 100 parts, including a FPGA) and we have not yet added up the bill of materials or gotten quotes from our board house on fabrication and population of the 4-layer PCB.

We will try hard to keep it as reasonably priced as possible, because:

a) I don't believe in gouging on price and don't use "what the market will bear" thinking in setting price; I always us the same cost plus profit multiplier to make my business work.

b) This supply, while being a demonstration of our new tech--having some broad implications for the future of audio power supplies--is still meant to be an upgrade for the very large number of people who have REGENs or all sorts of other small devices, drives, cards, etc. that can run from 3.3V, 5V, or 7V, on 1 amp or less.

 

Sorry we can not answer your question with a number just yet. I could guess at a target price, but doing so might paint us into a corner and is antithetical to how we actually arrive at product prices.

Thanks for your patience.

 

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

Wow! Sonores microRendu seems to have just about everything I need to make the jump from my pc based setup. Extremely interesting! Any time table for the release?

 

You will need to ask Jesus over in the thread on the microRendu: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f26-sonore-sponsored/sonore-microrendu-ethernet-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-output-27389/

 

Should be getting very close as at last the hardware is all done and I believe heading into production. I'm almost as excited about the microRendu as John and Jesus and everyone else is--and I have not even heard it yet. But I was privy to excruciating details along the entire 14-month hardware engineering cycle. It is quite amazing what has gone into those tiny boards. But of course all the great work that Jesus, Andrew, and team put into SonicOrbiter OS is what will make it a highly functional and flexible product.

 

And the LPS that is the subject of this thread is going to make an awesome match for microRendu!

 

The best part for me is that now that John's part with the microRendu hardware is all done, he is making much faster progress towards completion of this new 3.3/5/7V 1-amp LPS and its groundbreaking tech. This might be the most complicated small LPS in the world. Can't wait to tell you all about it. Won't be too long…

 

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

Jesus has just announced the micro rendu price, with ordering information coming soon. I'd really like to get your new power supply to go with it, so I hope you can disclose more about your PS technology and production timeframe by the time Jesus opens his order queue. I understand you have to stick to your discipline re business practices. I just hope it works out this way.

 

I think the timing will work out. Not that the new PS will be ready to ship as soon as the microRendu (I wish it would be because they will be a match made in heaven), but we are quite close to revealing all as the pre-prpduction boards should be sent off within a couple of weeks. That's the milestone John and I set for when we would open up and let the fun start.

[Superdad]

As a JS-2 owner, do I need to consider this new power supply add-on? Thinking in terms of powering the Regen and possibly the microRendu in the near future. Is the JS-2 all one would need for ultimate SQ?

 

The 5-7 amp JS-2 certainly has you covered. And someone who wanted to use our new 1 amp supply for both a REGEN and microRendu would most likely need two units.

 

As for SQ, the truth is we are still about a week or so out from John being able to directly compare the JS-2 versus our new supply--in his listening room as opposed to just on the test bench.

 

It will be easier to speak of the performance differences once we really know them--and once we have revealed all about the tech in this crazy new PS. Soon.

[Superdad]

Alex apologies for being off topic.

 

Not at all. I am eager for Sonore's success with the microRendu and am as likely as anyone to purchase one for myself. Jesus just bought a JS-2 from me earlier this month, and I know they are playing with it with their products.

 

Ciao,

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

Alex, not sure this is the right place to discuss this, but could you tell us more about other products you are working on and plan to release in 2016?

 

Sorry, but no.

It is rarely smart for a business to discuss products under development unless they are extremely close to release.

 

The semi-mystery LPS that is the subject of this thread is a perfect example. I made a mention of the project, someone started a thread about it, then the development--due to complexity and wanting to do it right for the big picture plan for the technology--took much longer than expected (John has a demanding day job as a chip designer, and he has been splitting his "free" time between our UpTone projects and the microRendu for Jesus).

 

So while we are really excited about revealing and releasing several forthcoming devices (one of which I am listing to right now), John and I are doing our best to keep our mouths shut.

 

That said, there is one project I can talk about: The new UpTone Production Facility (UPF). Have been planing this for a while. The construction drawings and foundation plan are being submitted for county permitting this week, and I expect to be breaking ground on this 600 sq./ft. addition to the house this spring. It will have a bathroom and kitsch area for my staff, excellent lighting, lovely windows and a deck onto our canyon mountain view, and best of all, real heating and air conditioning!

My only fear, aside from the cost, is the distraction it will be for me during many phases of construction. As they say, the devil is always in the details--and I like details…