UpTone Audio USB Regen Listening Impressions

[Superdad]

Nice. Have you sent it to your favorite NYC resident to try?

 

Funny you should mention that a I was just thinking of migelito last week. He got a JS-2 and MMK back in February and I think he powers both the Mac mini and the Aries from our LPS, but a REGEN would surely be a kick for him.

[Superdad]

Oh... I thought he was talking about Donald Trump... The Regen would be a hair-raising experience!!!

 

We shall overcomb!

[Superdad]

I will just say again: Ever since I got the Regen, I have never enjoyed my system as much. Just sounds better than it ever did before. Not a night and day difference, just noticeably better.

 

I have to confess that whenever I am stressed--trying to get enough parts in and crank out JS-2s and REGENs to meet promised dates while also trying to keep on top of my monstrous e-mail box and accounting backlog--I just come and read all the wonderful things you guys continue to write about your experience with our products. It totally energizes me! So thank you all again.

 

And just wait until you see and hear what we have coming next (Yes, I'm referring to the low current power device that is going to turn heads; and the parts count on the prototype is up to 217!; nobody is going to be copying these new circuits of John's anytime soon. )

 

Best,

 

--Alex C.

 

P.S. Am headed to the post office now with 100 REGENs shipping today. Another 35 will go out early next week, and we will have covered everyone with a May order date. Will still be about 120 short of filling all who were promised "early-July" because enough of the darn scarce 7.5V/2.93A/22W Mean Well SMPS units are not yet here. 70 more arrive on the 20th and 240 on the 28th. August will flow much better.

[Superdad]

Gentlemen: Perhaps a separate thread can be started for discussion of the little Chinese LPS. Thanks.

[Superdad]

Ebay:

 

http://stores.ebay.com/Sjofn-HiFi?_trksid=p2047675.l2563

 

Or from Madisound: https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/wire/cable/supra-high-speed-usb-2.0-a-b/

[Superdad]

I was hoping at least for my remaining life expectancy.

 

Just promise you won't expire on us before the REGEN's warranty does. Okay my friend?

[Superdad]

My home has HardiPlank siding with a 50-year guarantee that was installed when I was 50 years old. I've always said I wanted to live to collect on it.

 

Just accept the fact that you will be deaf as a HardiPlank by then...

[Superdad]

Along those lines, as someone with a house and kids, I often think of what a friend once told me (probably while cleaning out his garage): "We spend the first half of our lives accumulating stuff, and the second have trying to get rid of most of it."

 

I just wonder what our children are going to do with all our books and the 4,000+ LPs we have collected over the decades. Not to mention the hi-fi itself.

[Superdad]

Thanks. With the number of threads on this very nice device, I have missed it, but will go back and look.

 

Hi Thomas:

It's basically that the REGEN's own input PHY is still susceptible to upstream signal integrity variations (that's why USB cables feeding it still sound different), and putting two in series feeds the DAC-connected REGEN with a better signal.

 

Believe it or not, I still have not tried this myself in my own system. Just been too busy with the biz to even stop and play music or experiment with the various PS options/upgrades that others have loaned me. My wife has been out of town on business so I was hoping to fiddle one night this week. But it did not happen and now tonight is our 27th wedding anniversary so I'm off to pick up flowers, etc.

 

Call me early next week about the JS-2 and your Mac mini, etc.

 

Best regards,

ALEX

[Superdad]

Uptick, hmm, I like that term.

 

Perhaps I should have named my company UpTick Audio instead.

[Superdad]

Got mine today....

 

Hi Roger,

Glad you are enjoying it. I see you live in Raleigh. Great town; my father has lived there for 25 years and we always enjoy visiting.

[Superdad]

I have lost track of this thread.

I just would like to report my experience with the Amber device in my system comprising of optimized PC (with and without NAA), double ES9018 based LKS Audio DAC, SanderSound Magtech, Magnepan Mini Maggie System.

 

By what means did you have the output of the REGEN attached to your DAC? Were you using the solid adaptor or the 15cm USB cable that came with the REGEN?

 

Are those Maggie's the 36cm tall desktop speakers?

[Superdad]

Will the upcoming magic gizmo benefit the JS-2, too?

 

No.

The JS-2 is a high-current (5-6.4A), dual-output, choke-filtered, multi-voltage (5/7/9/12V) LPS offering exceptional performance.

 

The upcoming product (October target) is a 1 amp power supply with a single output (switchable between 5V for SSDs, SOtM/PPA/JCAT USB cards or anything else that can run from 5V/1A, and 7V for the REGEN). It will be 100% unique (the mystery part), affordable, and compact (11cm x 11cm x 3cm). It might be the ultimate low-curret LPS.

 

Best,

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

Got it: Thank you. So, even with the JS-2 feeding the Regen, there could be possible benefits with two Regens in series? If so, which would be the Regen to feed with JS-2 and which with the upcoming product? (The other output of the JS-2 is dedicated to an UpToned Mac Mini.)

 

Well, the benefit of two REGENs in series (which I still have not had a chance to try for myself!) is not related to the power supplies feeding them. Rather, it is about the USB PHY chip of the DAC-connected REGEN getting better signal integrity into it, thus further improving what it can put out in SI.

 

As for which way the hook up of LPS units to a pair of REGENs will sound best? It would be pure speculation on my part to say as we are not yet even listening to the 220-part mystery PS (for which John is hand-populating the prototype boards this weekend).

[Superdad]

Alex C

If demand keeps increasing at the present rate, you will seriously need to consider outsourcing the making of items like this one. Populating a small PCB with 220 components is a rather daunting prospect, let alone making large quantities of them!

 

LOL! Of course, all board production is outsourced. These are surface mount parts, and for the production boards most of the resistors will be in packages half the size of what I ordered for John for his hand assembly of the protos. Please tell me you did not really think we were soldering all these REGENs by hand.

[Superdad]

... is it me or did you just give a new piece of information about the new toy?

 

I don't think so. It is just that some people had asked if the new supply could power two REGENs, and we said yes, with a 'Y' cord--as there is still just one output jack. So again, it is a 1 amp supply with one output switchable between 5V and 7V. Obviously that's not the exciting part.

But we had a long call last night and John is working faster than ever. We both are anxious to get to the point where we can announce and talk about it. There will be a LOT to talk about.

[Superdad]

John, are you in the process of manufacturing your own surface mount USB-B male plug for the Regen?

 

No.

[Superdad]

Hi John:

 

1. Can the future Uptone power add on device be used with an Sbooster/Cheap Chinese LPS combo?

 

2. Even if the answer to the above question is "yes", for those of us that will definitely be purchasing your upcoming power add on, would you suggest we hold off on buying an Sbooster?

 

With our new "mystery" unit, the quality of the 7-12V DC that "energizes" it will NOT MATTER IN THE LEAST. At least not to our new device or to the REGEN.

 

The ONLY consideration of what PS you plug into the wall to power our new device will be (aside from being about 7V/3A, 9V/2A, or 12V/1.5A) if your system is sensitive to what both SMSP bricks/warts and most non-choke filtered LPS units kick back in the wall. For SMPS units that is noise around their operating frequencies (typ. 60KHz or 100KHz), and for most linears it is much lower down and due to diode spikes and drawing current mostly at the top of the 50/60Hz AC waveform.

People like myself that have their other gear (DAC, preamp, etc.) on a an isolation transformer usually don't have much sensitivity to an SMPS plugged directly into the wall. (And of course out own JS-2 does not kick much of anything into the line.)

 

As to the SBooster products, those are aimed at improving the output of SMPS units. But as stated above, that will be entirely irrelevant to users of out "mystery" supply.

 

Hope that helps.

 

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

For my use with the REGEN, I went directly to an Array Solutions W3NQN AC Line Filter AC-7A.

 

It's not so much about cleaning up the incoming AC line - it's about preventing the nasties produced by components and wall-wart power supplies from radiating back out into the AC system.

 

Thanks for the link Jim! I'll check one out. I know that different SMPS units operate at different frequencies and the profile of noise they kick back into the mains varies. I'll ask John if he thinks this sort of device (and the fellow states the inductor value used) will cover a wide range of SMPS units.

 

And thank you again for the nice write-up of the REGEN in your QuarterNotes newsletter. I've made a bunch of new "friends" from it in just the past week.

 

Best,

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

I'm amazed they encourage the use of a cheater plug to break ground loops.

 

Well, that is still about the most effective method to do so. But yeah, coming out in public with such a recommendation with a commercial product is a bit dicey.

[Superdad]

Regen arrived... not fair to review it yet as I think there are burn in issues. Initial impression is over heavy bass with less control and a more excited 'Hi-Fi' sound = not what was expected or desired.

 

Hi there, Thanks for trying the REGEN.

 

A couple of thoughts:

 

The REGEN literally generates a completely new low jitter, ideal rise/fall time, impedance-matched signal right at the input of your DAC so that your DAC's internal PHY and USB processor generate less packet noise and ground plane noise of their own. The signal your DAC receives can't really get any better--other than to the extent that the REGEN's own PHY is subjected to variance in the signal it gets. So what you are hearing is the true nature of your DAC. REGEN does not change the data, it only improves the waveform of the voltage and also blocks noise on the USB ground line (which for some reason we all hear as stronger/more detailed bass).

 

That said, and knowing that a whole bunch of other REGEN users here are using an Auralic Vega DAC with great results for the combo, I'll make these two other comments.

1) The REGEN does need "burn-in" time. It is a bit forward at first and the clock and hub chip do sound better when warm. 15 hours should be plenty, though I and others hear a lot of the things we like much sooner. But the "edge" wears off with time.

 

2) What you are perceiving as "over heavy bass" is really just a lot more bass details and given that your subs and speakers are likely bass champs, I think you have a LOT to look forward to. I urge you to fiddle a bit with both your subs' controls, but moreover with the positioning of your ATC SCM50 ASL monitors. Maybe move them forward (towards you) a couple of inches (or back towards the wall, but that seems less likely) until you find the spot where instead of "heavy" bass it opens up and you start hearing a lot of separation of tones in detailed bass (upright acoustic bass as well as intricate drumming are good material to try this with).

 

One fellow in Los Angeles wrote to me that he is an advanced drum student (think Whiplash but with less bleeding ), and with the REGEN he is able to hear and understand far more into certain techniques in his study material.

 

So give it some time and do some experimenting. And if in the end you are not fully satisfied that the REGEN adds to musical satisfaction with your system, I will cheerfully refund your full purchase price (less shipping).

 

Best,

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

Well if you want to duplicate it, the common mode choke on d+ and d- is too small for me to measure but the shield is seperated by a 47pF smd cap. Fwiw Imho the whole setup doesnt work on all usb implementation, it actually sounds worse in my system then a cheap belkin usb cable. But then again the regen with smps is worse then no regen in my system aswell ��

 

Though as I recall from your earlier posts, you are loving the REGEN with an upgraded PS, correct?

 

Yes, the REGEN benefits from better power, but I think those who report truly ill effects with it when powered from the supplied SMPS must have systems that are sensitive to ANY SMPS even being plugged into the mains circuits by their gear. A number of people (maybe even you) confirmed this by just plugging the Mean Well in without the REGEN inline with the USB at all.

I use isolation transformers on my DAC and preamp, so when the SMPS is plugged into the wall I don't hear any detrimental effect.

 

Of course we are also working on our affordable "mystery" little 1A 5/7V PS that will be the ultimate supply for low current devices like the REGEN. Not that the big, high-current JS-2 is any slouch. Will be interesting to compare the two.

 

Ciao,

--Alex C.

 

P.S. I really do not endorse--and strongly discourage--people opening commercial products and attempting to duplicate the circuits or design. It is an infringement of intellectual property rights. Small manufacturers in this industry have virtually no legal tools to protect their IP, therefore I think audiophiles should respect it. That said, I am not against DIY in the least.

[Superdad]

Superbad, it's only a matter of time until other manufacturers figure out what's going on inside the Regen and incorporate any of your intellectual property into their own products. Why not seek a patent on the Regen? If this new power supply you're working on is really unique, like you say it is then that also should be protected with a patent.

 

Someone asked the same question at the end of May, and here was my reply:

 

=============

a) Not easy to patent what is essentially just a USB hub--even one that is engineered and implemented with techniques that improve signal integrity.

 

b) For someone to get anywhere near the same performance as the REGEN, they would have to copy it in great detail, including x-raying the PCBs to see the impedance control techniques, and analyzing the plating stack-up and spacing of the PCB layers. In the end they would likely end up up with a blatant copy, and either copyright law would give us some rights, or the marketplace would reject it on ethical grounds. It is not as if someone is going to go to all the trouble to produce and sell it for half the price. (If I was charging an exorbitant amount then it might be worth it for some company.)

 

c) Our company is not going to rest on its laurels with the REGEN. We have multiple projects--large and small--brewing rapidly. John's mind is a virtual smorgasbord of brilliant ideas and innovations: I'm looking at my notes from our 2-hour call last night and having trouble deciding which of the old and new projects to fast-track first. One of the innovations (something that so far only one other company has even done a bit of) could result in an entire range of new products, scaled from small to large.

 

Thus I believe that the best course is to move faster and stay ahead with new things. One of our other projects will be deserving of a patent for John, but I am not looking forward to that process (though a good friend of my father's--a couple of decades his junior--runs an IP patent firm, mostly for s/w, and explained to me how to self-file provisional patten applications and told me that the laws have been getting better). Plus, I've read enough patents to understand how they need to be structured and cited, and John's writing ability and style is well suited to the form and requirements. I just loath the idea of him spending time to write a patent instead of working on fun stuff that moves the art forward.

=============

 

 

That said, there are some aspects to the new PS that--given how hard John has had to work on the thing and the innovations it includes to make it all work--might well be a candidate for a patent. But with a patent you then reveal much of how something works and then have to be prepared to defend it or license it out affordably. I loath the idea of the former, but like the idea of the latter--especially since the circuits for it could have broad applications for internal and external power supplies all over audiodom. It is something we have discussed in moderate detail, but it is a bit too soon at the moment. We are really focused now on executing quickly.

[Superdad]

yeah, that's it, a conspiracy....

 

Caught in the act! ;)

 

[Superdad]

Caveat is that I only tried connecting the Regen to DAC with short USB cables and I am awaiting some 90 degree hard connectors to try. The supplied hard connector is not long enough. And maybe multiple hard connectors diminishes its effect.

However 2Qute with JS-2 is incredible (no Regen) and better than the other three linear supplies I tried with it. People with Hugo have good results with the Regen, but the 2Qute is galvanically isolated while the Hugo is not, maybe that's why.

 

That's interesting because I read somewhere the Chord folks saying that the external power supply for the 2Qute should make no difference.

 

Just a reminder to everyone that, when a manufacturer says their DAC's USB input is galvanically isolated, what they ought to be saying is that they have isolators on the output of the USB input section. That is, the isolators (and there are several different types--some better, some worse--they all add jitter that must then be reclocked out with a flip-flop or in another FPGA) are AFTER the USB input PHY and USB protocol engine (FPGA, XMOS, Cmedia, whatever). There is currently (AFAIK) no such thing as a USB input galvanically isolated BEFORE the PHY or processor.

 

So the high signal integrity from the REGEN still does benefit the DAC's input by keeping its PHY chip calm and able to decode the data from the analog voltage without generating as much packet and ground plane noise. Yet a very few DAC designers are doing a better job isolating ground planes and keeping USB input stuff out of the rest of the DAC. Chord's engineers are sharp fellows with a LOT of experience, so I suspect their newest DACs (the 2Qute and Dave) are quite improved in this area.

But I am pretty confident that whatever immunity they have is not due to the galvanic isolators after the USB input stage. Those isolators have to pass the signal, and if damage is done before them they pass it right on through.

 

All that said, if you were judging the REGEN's efficacy with the 2Qute using the 6-inch USB cable we supply with it, then indeed all bets are off. Sad to say, but I've discovered that that "emergency" cable sounds like crap--especially after the REGEN creates a nice clean, impedance matched signal. Maybe the 90-degree connector you get will help. We are trying to work on a longer-term solution that will be better overall for everyone, but it is taking time.

 

Cheers,

--Alex C.