UpTone Audio USB Regen Listening Impressions

[jtwrace]

The more stuff I listen to, the more I'm impressed. I was planning to loan my REGEN to a friend tomorrow, but I'm afraid he won't give it back!

 

That's no joke. I loaned mine to a friend...

[jtwrace]

Alain, it would be interesting to know whether and how much a Regen might help the NOS1a. To me the Regen moves the sound of my DAC a little further toward that of the NOS1a. I also noticed the sound of the NOS1a changed when I changed cables, and Peter told me it was more subject to this than the NOS1. So perhaps the Regen might make a bigger difference with the 1a?

 

My friend has a NOS1a and he said it made a very large difference. He likes it a lot.

[jtwrace]

Im thinking that Ifi's Ipower will really help with dac's that sound great but didn't pay much attention to the power

supply to keep costs down.

I really like my Arcam Irdac ,paid 600 for it ,but the power supply is poor. Im betting an Ipower will really help improve

the sound quality of this dac.

I'd be surprised if the REGEN's power supply even with the SMPS isn't superior to the iPower. If you wanted the ultimate get the JS-2 from Alex.

[jtwrace]

I'd love to but I am not gonna pay 1k for it.

 

I have a Regen coming that i'm really excited about getting my hands on. Missed the first batch.

 

Cool. It's not $1k though...it's $925. ;-) And it has multiple outputs. Whaaaat a deal. What state are you in?

[jtwrace]

Why do you say that?

 

because he hasn't tried the iFi iPower 9V power supply yet. ;-)

 

I will state, in some rigs it might be hard to tell any improvement between iPower and the Regen smps.

took my ears over 30min to try and pin down what differences were uncovered....

 

Well, I do use the JS-2 which John Swenson has designed. Given his post in the other thread about power supplies, I will stick with him. It just makes sense and I couldn't be happier.

 

To answer your question directly about the SMPS/REGENerate. Alex & John have both mentioned that they use a very high quality regulator (J.S. designed maybe?) so I think all of this adds up to something more. John is very sharp and obviously isn't going to tell us everything and I like the fact that he does it with a scientific approach.

[jtwrace]

IIRC, the SMPS included with Regen is not UptoneAudio/JS designed, as superdad mentioned awhile back he had tested and spec'd a bunch of "off the shelf" SMPS manufacturers, and chose the best one for Regen that would not tilt the price/value ratio.

 

Yes, that's correct. However, there is more to a power supply and that's what's key here. They must have tested for the criteria that they're interested in and that's how they've arrived at these units.

[jtwrace]

Hello,

I'm quite new here; as a matter of fact, I think this is my first message... Here's the question: in a configuration like this one

 

NAS > switch > network player/computer > Regen > DAC

 

is it anymore useful to upgrade anything upstream of the Regen, for instance LPSUs on NAS, switch, and/or network isolation with FMCs ?

 

Welcome to CA! Do you mind asking technical questions in the other REGENerate thread? It's here. http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/uptone-audio-regen-22803/index24.html

 

I have answered this post over there already. No need to ask again. :-)

[jtwrace]

Hi thanks for the very valuable opinion.

More in general i wonder if this very nice device can decrease the performance dependency on the actual pc used as source.

I mean ... even a cheap pc will sound very good ?

I guess so but i would like to get some confirmations.

Thanks again, gino

 

I'd say it will help but of course not make a crappy computer sound like a great one. John S did say that it helped quite a bit though on his.

[jtwrace]

I'm using an external Belkin USB hub powered by a 5V LPS between PC and Directstream DAC.

 

The DAC ignores the clock on the source anyway so jitter from the source is not an issue.

 

My question: Does the Regen have the potential to improve things beyond this setup?

 

Yes.

[jtwrace]

Why?

 

From John S

What I have been finding in looking at DACs etc with USB inputs is that there is what I am calling "packet noise". This is bursts of noise caused by the USB receiver processing the packets of data. This noise shows up on both power and ground planes. Since the rate of packets is 8KHz there are strong components of this noise in the audio band. This noise can cause jitter in clock oscillators, reclocking flops, and DAC chips. It can also go directly into noise on the output of DAC chips.

 

The question everybody asks then is: well what about the DACs that have full isolation between the USB system and reclocking on the DAC side? Unfortunately this noise likes to make it through even this. Exactly how this works is complicated, I have written about this in the AudioStream articles. And bits and pieces in other posts recently. The upshot is that neither galvanic isolation nor reclocking completely get rid of it. They help attenuate it some, but don't get rid of it.

 

This packet noise consists of two parts: noise from the USB protocol engine and from the USB PHY. The protocol engine noise does not depend on the input signal quality, just the data, so its impact is always going to be the same no matter what is done with the input. The PHY is the part that actually connects to the electrical signals on the bus, ITS contribution to packet noise IS dependent on the quality of the input signal. This is the part the REGEN targets.

 

A high-speed USB signal runs at 480 mega bits per second, which is fairly high. Different cables and connectors can significantly degrade the "Signal Integrity" (SI). SI consists of the rise/fall times of the signal, noise on the signal and jitter of the edges. Increases in any or all of these can decrease the SI. The decrease in SI can be so large that it becomes difficult for the PHY to determine the actual bits. Thus the PHY contains several methods used to pre-process the analog signals in order to make it easier to determine the bits. Modern high speed serial interfaces work at all because of these techniques that have been developed over the years.

 

When the SI is very good, the PHY can turn off the pre-processing steps and easily determine the bits. As the SI degrades the PHY turns on different parts of the pre-processing as needed. Each of these steps takes a fair amount of power to operate, thus creating noise on the power and ground planes. The more processing the PHY needs to use to determine the bits, the more noise is generated. Thus part of the packet noise is directly related to the signal integrity of the incoming signal. The higher the SI, the lower the noise.

 

It is very important here to realize this is noise that is GENERATED inside the DAC by its own operation, it is NOT noise on the USB bus that is somehow getting into the DAC as is commonly thought.

 

The REGEN uses a common USB hub chip to create a new USB stream. I'm calling this a regeneration not just a reclocking. Because it uses clean power and a low jitter clock the output of the HUB has low noise and low jitter. By making sure the impedances are good and the REGEN is as close as possible to the DAC the rise/fall times have very small degradation.

 

The result is that the PHY in the DAC doesn't have to use any of its pre-processing arsenal so the packet noise is as low as it is going to get. Note: it does not get rid of the packet noise altogether, it is just as low as it can be.

 

The hub chip inside the REGEN has its own PHYs, which themselves generate packet noise on ITS power and ground planes. I have worked hard to minimize this noise, but it is still there. The result is that the REGEN itself is also sensitive to the SI of the signal fed to it, which is why USB cables on its input still make a difference.

 

I hope that is all clear. It is about as short as I can make it.

 

John S.

[jtwrace]

I lost my REGEN. :-(

[jtwrace]

??

 

Check the seat cushions. I don't put feet on the things, so it did not walk away in its own.

But seriously, what happened?

 

Hi jtwrace,

 

Can you please explain? Was it stolen? Got your REGEN broken? And in the latter case, what's the cause, as it might be of great interest to this community. Thanks!

Johan

 

Well, my dad came down for a visit and thought I'd let him listen (audiophile for 40 yrs) as we usually do. I didn't tell him what I was changing or doing. All I said was "tell me what you hear". We started out with the REGEN and then I removed it. Needless to say he went back home on the airplane with my REGEN. :-( Can't wait for my amber to arrive!

[jtwrace]

Uh-uh, smart Jason: He gets the "upgrade" for $45.

 

Actually for $0. I'll do it for him of course. ?

[jtwrace]

Listening to Amber now.

[jtwrace]

and?

 

It works! Woohoo!!!!

[jtwrace]

how's the colour compared to the JS-2 led?

 

Bright and luckily I don't see it. Otherwise I'd rip it out. No visible lights for me.

[jtwrace]

Hi,

 

I ordered a regen yesterday... does this mean it will be amber?

 

Sorry, I'm late at this party and don't understand 'green and amber' versions? Obviously I want the best for my Aurender N100 & Auralic VEGA.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

As others have said above, yes it will the amber. As someone who uses a Vega and has had the green and amber, you will be happy.

[jtwrace]

Could anyone really have seen this train coming so fast?

Regards,

 

--Alex C.

Yes, that's why I started these threads and told you they were going to sell like hotcakes.

[jtwrace]

Yes, thank you Jason. But believing something is going to sell well (which I always have) and putting out many tens of thousands of dollars for every increasing orders are two different things. After early adoption, broader awareness sales come, and then eventually market saturation and slow down occurs. The unknown is just how big the USB DAC market is. And of course soon I have to start to actually promote. All this is with no advertising and no format reviews (but they are calling every week now). Luckily the REGEN (unlike the JS-2) is not a labor-intensive product so scaling up is not hard. We'll see...

 

Right. I think you're doing it right though. Now that it's proven, you can possibly scale up while still being cautious. Of course promotion is great but word of mouth is ideal. Of course the other products that are coming will help too.

[jtwrace]

ser•en•dip•i•ty |ˌserənˈdipitē|

noun

the occurrence and development of events by chance in a happy or beneficial way : USB REGEN arrives by mail, and wife leaves on week-long business trip the next day ;>)

 

haha

[jtwrace]

I hope it can even beat the best LPSU!

Since they make one I hope not for their sake. ;-)

[jtwrace]

I'm waiting on an Amber, this will be my first REGEN. Might play with power supplies as well. What size is the power input on the REGEN, want to make sure I have the right jack or if I need an adapter.

 

Thanks.

 

2.1mm x 5.5mm

[jtwrace]

Does anybody know the current draw of the regen amber? I plan to build a choke input lps this weekend.

 

The regen has been playing here for a week or so hooked up to my accuphase dc-37 which has a bus powered usb receiver. The sound has turned ear bleading harsh and agressive, most likely due to the smps (I hope).

Sounds like there is a bigger issue.

[jtwrace]

"Affordable brain twisting PS add-on" sounds even better.

 

Which lead me to do this:http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/uptone-audio-regen-power-supply-add-24963/

[jtwrace]

.....if you really want the ultimate though get the UpTone Audio JS-2. ;-)

 

In all seriousness, you just can't imagine how good this power supply is until you try it. I've built my own and they were really good but this is in a different league. I'm now powering 3 devices from it.