UpTone Audio USB Regen Listening Impressions

[Superdad]

I have ordered one last saturday... :-)

I hope to be one of the first customer.

I am wondering if I can connect the regen also with a clean 12 linear power supply..

I don't like the wall smpa :-(

I am very curious!!!

Ps. :-)

 

Thank you one and all for your orders. Woke up this morning to find there are only about 8 left unsold. Wow.

 

 

With regards to powering the REGEN from supplies above the 6-8V we silkscreened onto the case:

 

Below is a quickly edited version of what I wrote a couple weeks back in the other REGN thread, and this common question will be one of the very first to be addressed in the FAQ update of the web site the moment I catch my breath:

 

The REGEN has two expensive, ultra-low noise regulators (the wonderful TI TPS7A4700), one for 3.3V for the USB hub chip, and one for 5V for forwarding clean VBUS to the DAC for those that require it.

 

The +DC input voltage to the REGEN needs to be:

a) Above 6 volts since one of the regulators is being used to make clean 5V for any USB devices which need it;

but

b) Preferably below about 9V since we want the REGEN to be usable by those people whose DACs are entirely bus powered, and if one of those DACs draws the 500mA USB-spec allowed max., then the 4V drop from 9V to 5V is going to generate 2W of heat on a regulator with no heat sink. Such should be okay, especially since even bus-powered USB DAC/headphone amps are staying below the full 500mA spec.

 

On the other hand, if you have a bus-powered DAC drawing the full 0.5A allowed by the USB spec and you use a 12V PS, then the drop to get to 5V is 7V; 7V*0.5A=3.5 watts--perhaps a bit more than I would feel comfortable with. Probably okay, but I'd rather go to 9V or below.

 

If you DAC's USB input is NOT entirely bus-powered--say just powering your USB input for handshake, then a 12V or even greater supply could even be used, though there is no need. But it is hard to now just how much current your USB input will draw--unless you ask the manufacturer or find that your DAC works fine without ANY USB power.

 

If you don't need any bus power at all--or for sure only just for initial handshake--then you really don't have to worry. I think our USB hub chip draws less than 50mA at 3.3V, so it would be pretty hard to overheat that second regulator. (even 15V dropped to 3.3V will, at 50mA be only about 0.6w)

 

We are trying to keep the regulator for the 5VBUS from having to dissipate much more than 2.5W since it does not have a heatsink and is in a sealed enclosure.

 

As you know we will be including a 7.5V/2.93A/22W SMPS that I selected as best "sounding" for the price. Yes, our own JS-2 LPS beats it, but the REGEN sounds GREAT with just the stock supply.

As you can see, current capability for the REGEN's PS is really not the issue. The only reason I chose such a high wattage PS to include is that I found that size to be the sweet spot quality and output capacitance for current delivery--bass was better than on the little cheap ones, and MUCH better, and with clearer highs than on any of the available inexpensive linears (only wall warts; all the factory tabletop linears are unregulated units). Go figure…

[Superdad]

Alex,

 

Going the other way, if I am running a DAC that does not require bus power is it safe to run the Regen off a 5V linear supply ?

 

If you first test (without the REGEN) your DAC by taping over USB 5VBUS pin 1 (I find this easiest to do at the computer 'A' end of the cable with a narrow cut strip of business card stock inserted a folded over). Or use a cable that you know does not connect 5VBUS line. That way you can determine that your DAC's USB input will or won't function without ANY external 5V--not even for computer "handshake."

 

Once you are certain that no 5VBUS is needed, then yes, you can run the REGEN from a 5V supply. The main function, USB hub chip signal regeneration and impedance match runs off of 3.3V from a separate ultra-low-noise regulator, thus 5V input allows for plenty of drop required for that regulator to do its thing.

 

My own DAC does not use any USB power, and so I have been able to test the above just by setting one output of my JS-2 LPS to 5V.

[Superdad]

It's bizarre. The guitar riff at the beginning sounds almost f'd up without the REGEN and then you put it in and it sounds like something just got fixed. It's really strange but it's staying in my system. In fact, I think I need to order one for my Micro iDSD system. Yikes!

 

Yep, I am not surprised at all. In my system it is one of those things that is huge but almost impossible to describe. First reaction is sometimes that "this can't be right," but if it isn't right then the difference is so large it must be entirely wrong. But go ahead and try to finger what part is "wrong". I think acoustic instruments in a very real sounding space make it much easier to grok the "rightness" of what the REGEN does.

 

It would be technically incorrect to say it is reducing jitter, but the sonic difference does sound to me a bit like that. Or like what you notice with better PS (though REGEN doesn't so markedly improved bass foundation the way a good supply can) or by dropping a ton of background processes from your player computer OS. All those fall in the camp of hard to describe but quite significant.

 

One of you needs to try it with a cheap DAC you might have hanging around. John and I thought it was pretty freaky what it did for ones we had (John with an HRT Music Streamer; me with an old Devilsound).

 

Anyway, I am glad you gents are "getting it" so far. There was a small part of me sweating that it might be too radical for some and interpreted poorly. I kept telling my wife that I thought it was going to be like a movie that people either love or hate.

But it is probably way too early, with only a few "precincts reporting" to conclude anything from the exit polls.

 

And still another 50 have to get mailed out early this coming week.

Thanks and goodnight gang,

 

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

I was curious about the weight, so this is probably way overkill I then?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]18105[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]18106[/ATTACH]

 

Foggie:

 

I like where you are going with this--thanks for the good ideas. I have been planning on talking with my friend/award-winning industrial designer/architect about something very much along the lines of what you are proposing, with the idea of making an adjustable support available as a modest-cost option.

 

Please be advised that the end panels of the REGEN's case are 0.5mm larger overall (0.25mm at each edge) than the extrusion itself. So the above support designs would not be able to just slide over the REGEN unless the oval opening was made larger than the body of the case, or one end cap was removed to slip it on. I also wonder what would keep the REGEN from sliding around, and also from being scratched by the opening's edge if it was left bare.

 

Certainly there are many possibilities and we are flattered that you (and others) already think enough of the REGEN to devote time and creative energy towards an enhancement to it.

 

Thanks again,

 

--Alex

[Superdad]

The Vaunix hub does NOT provide any isolation, it is just a normal hub, with a really good power supply.

 

Wow, $199 for an industrial USB hub. Makes the REGEN seem a bargain.

 

Thanks everyone for the great reviews. Quite overwhelming and very gratifying to both John and me.

 

Alan, I don't think John or I ever said that USB cables would no longer make much difference when using the REGEN. I still hear a nice difference between my Supra cable and a Belkin Pro (not the worst cable in the world BTW), and a cable I have from a well-known firm that sounded awful and screechy before still rubs me the wrong way with the REGEN.

 

As John postulated in his long dissertation here the other day, the REGEN itself is susceptible to signal integrity issues and will generate its own internal "packet noise" perturbations based on that. So what comes before (cables, computer, etc.) does still matter a bit--but now to the REGEN and not the DAC.

 

I guess that does beg the question of: if you put a REGEN at both ends (directly into the computer's USB port by putting the male/male adaptor on the REGEN's input side), would the USB cable in between THEN not make a difference? If I did not have such a head cold right now I'd try that today.

 

It also speaks to the usage of the Corning optical USB.

While the Corning does provide true isolation of the data lines, it powers its optical receiver/USB hub/PHY (that's what's in the output end getting hot) with bus power from the computer. John suggested that the way to get the very best out of the Corning would be to cut in and grab the power wires--probably a few inches from the output end--and power its circuit with a separate, cleaner supply. Does not have to be anything fancy.

Only thing is, there is speculation that the Corning uses a buck/boost DC converter in the send end to send 12V down the cable (and then another to drop it down to 5V so it can offer a tiny bit of VBUS current at its output--presumably for handshake, etc.).

 

 

FYi, although I was able to bump the second run of REGENs up to 150 units, as of this morning about half of those are already pre-sold. Hard to believe I might have to order up a third run before part for the second one even arrive. Parts will be here by May 18th, but I leave on a week's vacation (of sorts) with my family on the 20th--back in the office on the 28th. At that point it will be another mad rush to get as many orders processed and shipped from Friday the 29th to Wednesday, June 3rd. I'm not going to commit to shipping more than about 30-40 units per day, and orders will be filled in the order they came in.

 

Cheers,

ALEX

[Superdad]

This being said, I'd be interested in seeing a Uptone optical usb cable, and, since 3m would probably satisfy most of us, prices could even be competitive : pay less for cable length, more for top hubs inside. And that don't fail after a few days of service... Am I the only one to wish for that ?

 

Funny you should mention that. The idea has been on my mind all week (since John suggested that the Corning would provide truer isolation if its receiving end had separate power instead of the computer VBUS), and I plan to discuss it on our call today. Have no idea about the availability or quality of the optical tranciever chips required to do such a piece the "good way." And then, what does it take to properly terminate the glass fibre?

 

So while I'd love to offer a two-piece optical solution (in cases the size of REGEN or maybe even smaller), I make no promises about it being possible for us. And Le Concombre, you have ruined the element of surprise!

[Superdad]

Without a doubt essential. A landmark product even?

 

Wow Fredrick, that's a wonderful endorsement, thanks.

 

I'll be honest with everyone (you know I always am):

My delight in all these rave reviews--about the positive effect of the REGEN--is split 50/50 between the fast and steady sales it is generating, and just knowing that all of you are enjoying your music systems so much more with this affordable device.

The combination of the two is what every dedicated audio entrepreneur lives for.

 

So thanks once again for your suppot and enthusiasm. Of course my deepest thanks always goes to the brilliant John Swenson. His inspired designs are fuel for all this.

I am counting on the success of the JS-2 and REGEN to provide the capital funding needed for a much more ambitious and groundbreaking project (cough, DAC, cough) we have been sketching out together for over two years (good thing we've had the time because it has changed a lot on paper as the thinking has evolved).

 

It's both an exciting and exhausting time for my small firm in transition. I'm already daydreaming about having an administrative assistant to help keep up.

We'll see where all this leads...

 

Best,

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

Just a heads-up everyone:

 

As of this moment (4:25 p.m. Pacific time, April 29), there remain only 5 unsold REGENs from the batch of 150 that will be ready to ship on the last day of May/first couple of days of June.

 

There is already an updated note on the REGEN page to this effect. I will be watching over the course of this evening and as soon as I see the last ones go I will change the notice.

 

Unfortunately, with our Japanese case supplier closed until May 11, I won't be able to get a date for a follow-on June run for another couple of weeks.

 

I am actually considering the batch to be sold-out a few shy of 150 units so I can hold back a few this time. For JS-2 buyer bundles, for a reviewer or two, or just in case one of the 150 boards that comes in fails Q.C. testing (did have one from the last batch with a chip soldering flaw; and one with a cracked USB jack).

 

All the best,

--Alex

[Superdad]

And then there were none. Until the sold-out 150 ship (May 29th-June 3), and the then the run after that—taking orders for starting now—which I am estimating will be about June 18th.

Please see my blog post for more details.

 

Thanks everyone!

 

John and I are looking forward to meeting some of you this Saturday at the "CA by the Bay" get together.

 

One REGEN (held in reserve for the occasion) will be raffled off, with the proceeds going to the charity of the winner's choice.

[Superdad]

@mordante: Regen and Wyrd are comparable.

Read more in the first Regen thread..

 

More specifically with regards to the similarities and differences, see this particular post of John's: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/uptone-audio-regen-22803/index16.html#post417237

[Superdad]

Wow! 255 posts on this device from many well respected CA members and not one negative. Just stumbled upon this this morning and already ordered one from the next run... have to delay gratification yet again ��. It's going to seem like a loooong wait!

I have nearly silently taken advice from many of you thru CA for a couple of years (especially Alex and Jud) and know I won't be let down with this purchase.

Only 2 very slight negatives from me: the shipping cost appear to have gone up $3 for US shipping (to $8.55) and the main USB REGEN page still says $5.25, and trying to subscribe to "Receive an infrequent newsletter?" from Alex's UpTone Audio website sends you to a "Page not found". Minor details.

Thanks, Bill J

 

Hi Bill:

 

Thanks for calling out those web site errors. I'll get that fixed. The extra $3.30 on top of the $5.25 Priority Mail shipping is for full insurance, hence $8.55. I never charge more for shipping then I myself pay (it is a pet peeve of mine when I shop).

 

Just posted a big announcement over on the other REGEN thread. Here is a direct link to the post: RESISTANCE IS NOT FUTILE!

[Superdad]

Would this work? Just curious.

 

Streamer-->Wyrd-->Regen-->DAC

or

Streamer-->Regen-->Wyrd-->DAC

 

 

Just be sure to also try just Streamer-->Regen-->DAC as well.

 

Yes, I have obvious bias, but I try to keep my ears from being so. I have a Wyrd here and I tried feeding the REGEN with the Wyrd. I found it to be a modest detriment, likely because of the extra USB cables involved.

Remember, a large portion of the Wyrd's circuitry goes towards cleaning up the 5VBUS, but the REGEN ignores that pin of the USB cable and provides its own clean 5VBUS.

And while the Wyrd and the REGEN use the same hub chip, John went to considerable lengths to improve the data signal integrity, power network (for the data side), and to produce a really good impedance matched output--hence the preference to plug it straight into the DAC.

It may be a couple of months (things are really busy), but some measurements documenting the performance of the REGEN are in the works.

[Superdad]

Has anyone tried comparing the Regen + standard USB output versus Audiophile USB card like PPang or JCat? I am trying to figure out if these USB cards have any additional benefit if I already have the Regen.

 

Hi Tommy:

Jason reported getting a PM from someone with a SOtM USB card and a REGEN: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/uptone-audio-regen-22803/index34.html#post423918

I think there have been others as well.

[Superdad]

I found that I get slightly better sound using a Audioquest Dragontail short USB cable with the Uptone supplied adapter instead of the short USB cable supplied with the Regen

 

How are you doing that? The DragonTail is USB 'A' female to USB 'A' male. So for the output (DAC) side of the REGEN it is useless since DAC inputs are USB 'B.' And on the input side, the REGEN has a USB 'B' jack.

 

EDIT: Oh wait, I figured out that what you must be doing is using the solid A>B adapter into the DAC and putting the DragonTail between it and the output of the REGEN.

 

I think you all know that the 6" USB I provide was meant just in case the solid adapter could not be used. I freely admit that the short cable is a cheap one. There really are EXTREMELY few pre-made USB male/male A>B ultra-short cables available anywhere in the world. I am not on the scale of Audioquest to just order up a few thousand custom pieces, and hopefully most people don't have to use it anyway.

 

One alternative, though I have no idea if it sounds any better is this Belkin 6-inch Pro Series cable.

[Superdad]

FYI:

All REGENs available for shipment to clients in June have been pre-sold.

The web ordering page and automatic confirmation notices have just been changed to inform that new orders (as of 4:00 p.m. Pacific time, May 17th) will be shipped in early-July. I will update everywhere once a more exact July schedule is known.

 

Once again, as of now, ALL orders already placed will ship in JUNE. Only new orders from this moment forward are for July.

 

Thanks everyone!

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

Anyone?

 

Yes, you will not have any problems doing so. But please refer to the FAQ on this subject at USB REGEN: Questions and Answers – UpTone Audio

[Superdad]

I lost my REGEN. :-(

 

Check the seat cushions. I don't put feet on the things, so it did not walk away in its own.

But seriously, what happened?

[Superdad]

It seems a bit weird to me, to suggest that an adaptor with internal leads perhaps 2.5CM long could do too much damage in comparison with a PC's much longer internal cable to a front USB port for example.

 

Well that's all before the REGEN and affects just what feeds it (who uses an internal-cable-attached front panel USB port for their music output anyway? ).

 

After the device is another story, and is likely to be much more critical and revealing of cable differences than on the input side of the REGEN.

The point of using the adapter--or some super-short true 90-ohm cable (where from?)--is to preserve both the greater USB signal integrity coming out the REGEN, as well as the carefully done impedance match offered to the DAC's input.

[Superdad]

Hello Guys,

 

Just want to confirm if Regen will work with my Exasound E20 Mk II before I place my order.

 

Thanks,

jhameeh

 

Oh yes, at least 6 users that I know of are using it with exaSound DAC with wonderful results. Do a search here and in the exaSound threads. Of the top of my head, Eurodriver, hifial, and weedos are three with exaSound and REGEN.

[Superdad]

when my Supra broke, i grabbed a generic and there it stayed for a long time. When my Corning failed, I was much less keen to listening to digital music. That in conjonction with the Amber a Supra blows a Corning out of the park is a puzzling report by JS.

 

Do you have a REGEN on order?

[Superdad]

... I have purchased a nice new longboard

 

I assume you mean for wave surfing. Or do you ride one of those giant skateboards down winding mountain roads? (very dangerous but fun to watch; not as much fun as watching surfing success and wipeouts)

I grew up on Southern California beaches, but mostly body-surfed, rode racing bicycles, and picked up girls--at least when I wasn't tinkering with hi-fi in Robert Hovland's garage.

[Superdad]

If you're curious enough, buy a Regen, lend it to George, and you'll have measurements.

 

Well he asked for a "theoretical explanation." John Swenson has posted an abundance of those here, ranging from the very technical to a little lighter. I'm too tired tonight (and still have an hour of shipping label collating to go) to post the links. I am sure someone else here will. But I don't think Stereolab42 is all that curious anyway or he would have already sought and found the explanation he says he is looking for.

 

Measurements from us may come in due time. If the effects of sub-optimal USB input signal integrity on the DAC were easy to measure then designers would have eliminated it a while ago.

 

Of course the proof is in the pudding…or in these little black boxes that are flying out at a ridiculous rate.

[Superdad]

Go to the beer tasting. The Regen will still be there when you get back. I went to a similar tasting a couple of weeks ago and had a great time.

 

Better yet, bring your REGEN along to the beer tasting. You'll have a conversation piece about a little device that's bringing you much new musical pleasure--and I'll watch for orders from a bunch of drunk Danes. ;)

 

Seriously though, thanks for the nice review. Very glad you are enjoying the REGEN in your system. John and I are quite pleased that so many people, with systems that run the gamut, are all obtaining such satisfying results. It is inspiring (and enabling) us on our path towards the next product.

[Superdad]

 

What finally worked is this- with all my audio components turned on and all cables attached/plugged in, I unplugged the power cable going from the wall outlet to the Regen's SMPS, then plugged it back in.

 

Voila! Instant recognition.

 

Thanks for sharing that Blake. Will be helpful to others.

 

It's funny, because Macs are great at just recognizing devices and working. When I originally went to set up a test station (for 100% pretest of every REGEN PCB), I bought a $10 pair of Logitech bus-powered-only USB computer speakers to use for the test rig. I grabbed our son's rarely used small old netbooks running Windows 7 and set about plugging a REGEN in (to be seen as the simple powered hub it is). Lots of mouse clicks and machinations, and then got music to play through it. Unplugged the REGEN to try a next one--had to start all over again.

 

Remembered we still had the Apple G4 aluminum Powerbook (used throughout my Hovland years and then by our daughter throughout high school) gathering dust on a shelf. Booted up beautifully after all these years (would not count on the battery though); launched iTunes, plugged in the REGEN with Logitech speakers attached and selected in Preferences>Sound. No sweat. But what's great is that one can keep the music playing, unplug all 3 connections from the REGEN, plug another one in, and without touching the computer, the music comes right back through the REGEN and speakers. My assistant can test 100 in a hour! Can't do that with Windoz...

[Superdad]

I really was hoping to get to the end of June before this happened, but I just checked the order list, and any new REGEN orders placed from this moment forward will not ship until mid-August.

 

If your order number is between 1382 and 1640, your REGEN is still scheduled to ship in July.

Circuit boards and cases for all of those will be in house by July 6th, and we will assemble and test quickly then, but we will not have enough of the 7.5V/2.93A Mean Well SMPS units on hand to ship all 250 REGENs early-July. Certainly by mid-to-late July and this may improve.

 

(I've had multiple purchase orders for large quantities with scheduled dates with several distributors for some time--and I have even flown in batches of 30-50 from Europe and Asia where I could find them. Anyone who can find me a good quantity (50-150) of real stock-on-the-shelf of the GS25A07-P1J from a wholesaler will get points and some sort of bonus from me. Don't bother looking in the USA, don't tell me about 5-10 units at some high price somewhere, and don't tell me about deals with a lead time for end-of-July as I'll be covered by then.)

 

Again, if you place an order now, your order number will be 1640 or above and your REGEN will not ship until August.

I am sorry. Could anyone really have seen this train coming so fast? I've been trying, and each month the parts and order numbers get bigger. We will continue to grow in numerous ways--especially once the next product is announced and shipping.

 

John and I thank you for all your support and enthusiasm, and we are delighted that everyone is enjoying their USB REGENs so much.

 

Regards,

 

--Alex C.