HQ Player

[mirekti]

Can someone explain this statement from the user manual, please?

What or where should one setup -3 dB setting?

My plan is to use Roon+HQPlayer for PCM to DSD256 conversion on a Windows machine and not sure if this would work as I read somewhere for Roon to use HQ player volume has to be set to max.

 

"Note! Overloading the delta-sigma modulator in SDM mode will cause audible noises.It is recommended to keep software volume at max -3 dB setting or lower when usingPCM to SDM conversion to avoid overloading the delta-sigma modulator. Maximummodulation depth is monitored and when necessary limited to 50% as per SACDspecification."

[mirekti]

Would MSI Cubi 2 work well with HQPlayer and potentially Roon at the same time?

https://www.amazon.com/Intel-i5-7200U-Bluetooth-Barebone-Cubi2-006BUS/dp/B01LXP5JZC?th=1

 

Also, as this has integrated graphics, does one enable CUDA offload or this makes no sense with integrated graphics?

 

What do you think CPU % will be used? I am worried not to have the fan on max all the time.

[mirekti]

Possibly, but depending on how much you plan to do with HQPlayer. I have an i5 NUC (Broadwell) which is similar and it works fine for DSD256 upsampling using -2s filters. But I have done some manual fan setting adjustments in the BIOS etc. Small boxes have potential to get acoustically noisy if the fan starts running at full speed...

CUDA requires Nvidia GPU, so the Intel integrated graphics is not good for that. So far HQPlayer's support for the integrated graphics is very limited (and zero on Linux).

 

Would going with an external PCIe over Turnderbolt 3 and some NVIDA Pascal (which model would suffice?) work for Cubi 2 or NUC7?

[mirekti]

Hi Miska,

 

if AMD Ryzen comes out to be what was claimed, and people "start" using it, would HQPlayer also support stream processing the same way it does with CUDA offload?

[mirekti]

Theoretically yes, however that would multiply the RAM usage and wouldn't even work for the 32-bit binary because it would run out of the address space. But that is possibility in future when most people start having 16 - 32 GB of RAM.

I would say material for 4.x series.

 

When is the 4.x series due?

[mirekti]

I've decided to rebulid my HTPC and it will be fanless FC5 case based. MBO mini ITX, CPU i7-7700 (65W).

 

Do you think this would be enough for running smoothly HQPlayer upsampling to DSD512 and Roon?

I guess this will only work with -2s filters.

 

I also have a backup plan and that's to add Nvidia P4.

P4 would fit the case, wouldn't use too much power, but it is quite expensive.

Is P4 something worth investing in?

[mirekti]

You'd be much better off getting a 'hotter' cpu (such as a 7700k) downclock it until temps are stable (if necessary, very unlikely will be necessary as even at DSD512, 7700k is not anywhere close to fully loaded, so would not use full 91W TDP) and forgo the GPU.

 

Thanks a lot for the comments. I considered 7700K as well, but the case supports TDP of 65W.

Ok, so either CPU only or external GPU (which kills the small factor I was aiming at).

Let's see how it will work with 7700. I am still awaiting DSD512 DAC so I'll be able to test it only in a month or so.

 

Regarding the P4, too bad, I though one would be able to use the sink on the other side of the case given P4's low power requirements. It is super expensive so I don't feel bad about it.

[mirekti]

Even a Geforce 1060 would likely overwhelm the FC5's dissipation capacity.

 

How about 1050 Ti, would this be a good choice for CUDA offload?

It is almost the weakest GTX pascal card, but I guess it would help the CPU a bit, just not sure how much. I have no intention of using it for gaming.

It fits the case perfectly, doesn't consume much power and I could eventually modify/add pipes to the case sink for even more heat dissipation.

[mirekti]

Looks like the 1050 & 1050Ti are less powerful (DP FP) than GTX 960 Ted had/has in his system...

I am not sure who Ted is. Are you trying to say that GTX 960 was of little or no help so I should skip adding 1050 Ti to the system or there's something else behind it?

[mirekti]

Hope this helps - listen before you buy if possible

 

Yes, I am starting without the graphic card. I also read many threads and so some Miska's results, however, I am not able to grasp how much means good, only that more means better.

 

For example, if I new my CPU will be at 60% while doing conversion and adding 1050 Ti would offload it by 20% this would make sense.

If, on the other hand, 1050 Ti reduces CPU load from 60% to 55%, then there's not much sense in adding the GPU.

 

PS My CPU load numbers are randomly picked (just to avoid confusion).

[mirekti]

Or you can tell us your CPU and which load type and up sampling you are looking to achieve.

 

 

This is what I have built today:

 

Case: FC5

MBO: ASRock Z270 ITX

RAM: HyperX Savage (2x8GB) 2400MHz DDR4 CL12

CPU: i7-7700

HDD:Toshiba OCZ RD400 - 512GB M.2

PSU: Dell brick 330W + HDPlex 300W DC-ATX

 

So far I tried following:

 

XTR-MP-2S -> ASDM7 -> 44kHzDSD128 from 16bit 44kHz Pipeline SDM enabled.

CPU shows between 8-10% in Task Manager, yet in CAM NZXT I see jumps between 10-25% per core.

CPU temperature is around 50 Celsius.

 

XTR-MP -> ASDM7 -> 44kHzDSD128 from 16bit 44kHz Pipeline SDM enabled.

CAM NZXT I see jumps between 15-35% per core.

CPU temperature is around 70 Celsius.

 

My goal would be to run DSD512 once I get the capable DAC, and I must admit these XTR filters are really interesting. I see already this would not work. Maybe 2S and DSD512.

 

What concerned me was the MBO temperature. It was around 50 in the first case and it reached 57 in the latter.

All my music is on the M.2 disk which is attached on the bottom part of the MBO. I even received few alarms that its temperature was too high. HFINFO64 reported 72 Celsius which was way too hot so I turned the PC off.

The same tool reported for other disk which is 2.5" SSD only 37 Celsius. I will plug the M.2 disk out and check the MBO's temperature without it.

 

 

If one check the attached photo, one could see there's enough empty space left between the MBO and heat sink on the left.

 

 

Palit announced 1050Ti KalmX which is fanless 1050.

As I am not using a PSU in the case the left heat sink could be used to expand the heat sink of KalmX.

Of course, I would do so only if the CUDA offload would help in this case. If the performance of 1050 Ti is so poor that it would only heat the case, than I'll obviously need to live with what I have.

 

 

Toshiba OCZ RD400

[mirekti]

Miska, is NVIDA Quadro series good alternative for GeForce cards when used with HQPlayer?

For example, I'd add Quadro P2000 (maybe P4000) to i7-7000 for upsampling to DSD512 and XTR-MP filter, ADM7.

[mirekti]

I am using i7-7700 CPU and currently own a DAC which can only go do DSD128.

Is there a way I could test whether this CPU is strong enough to do upsampling to DSD512 without actually having DAC which supports it?

At the moment I only see in the options values up to those supported by the DAC.

[mirekti]

...may well be able to do some auto rate with non-2s filters.

 

I am able to get DSD128 with xtr-mp filter (non-2s), the CPU is around 20, 25% so I wondered how much more CPU power will 512 need.

[mirekti]

@Miska Could you comment on NVIDA Quadro P series, please?
My plan was to add P2000 or P4000, and use them for CUDA offload for i7-7700 when upsampling to DSD512 and non -2 filters. Are these cards good candidates, any comparison to GTX in terms of CUDA?

[mirekti]

28 minutes ago, Miska said:

I would recommend to look at performance test results for double precision FP, if there is no big difference you just end up spending lot of extra money for no gain...

 

Thank you very much. I was aiming P series as it requires less power, but might end up using GTX card.
I understand the more the better for DPFP, but what would be your guesstimate of minimum given the i7-7700 processor so it would make sense adding it? 
For example, if one opts for passively cooled 1050 Ti, how much load it would take off of the CPU? It's DPFP is 62 (91) GFLOPS where 91 is boost.

[mirekti]

53 minutes ago, Miska said:

I certainly wouldn't go below GTX 1060, the performance drops so much.

 

Ok, I think all is clear now. 
I will wait for my DSD512 capable DAC and see how will CPU perform on its own. 
Given my case size and power supply, the only option would be P4000 which would put me somewhere between 1060 and 1070 (I tried to make correlation between GTX and P series by comparing single precision floating point values and estimated DPFP values).
It will be interesting if it is possible to mod it to use Streacom's case side heatsink and put Noctua 120mm ULN fan under it, but that's for another topic.

Thanks!!!

[mirekti]

4 hours ago, Theobetley said:

 

Give it time. I had to breakin 3.16 over 2 days before it sounded great.

 

What did you have to break in?

[mirekti]

 

5 hours ago, bibo01 said:

For v4.x Miska has not yet established a cost for upgrading.

It's probably worth it to upgrade to the latest version.

 

Oh, I wasn't aware there was an upgrade path like this. 
Do you know what features will version 4 have?  

[mirekti]

I have an occasional issue with the SDM playback.
My setup is: Roon+HQPlayer (3.16.1) -> Vinnie Rossi LIO

When I turn my PC off and turn it back on, I cannot make HQPlayer use SDM anymore. In Roon it appears the music is playing but the progress bar is not moving and of course there is no sound out. There are also some random things I do which turns SDM off, but cannot tell what exactly happens. 

If I click on Pause in Roon, change to PCM in HQPlayer the music is playing. If I again click on Pause, switch back to SDM and click play, nothing. 
The only thing that helps is a reboot off all devices, for which I am not sure of sequence yet (sometimes I need to reboot multiple times). 
When this issue happens, the Auto tab in HQPlayer doesn't show any bit rate when I click on it, but I can still choose between PCM and SDM. 

One of the log lines say:
2017/04/20 08:17:53 No suitable output rate for 44100, stop ??? Not sure why this is a case,

Could someone check the log and give me a suggestion what is actually wrong, please?
08.17 is when I tried with SDM
08.19 is when I tried with PCM

 

To sum it up, the issues is only with SDM not PCM. As if the auto rate gets blocked.
 

HQPlayer.log

[mirekti]

10 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Since the interface can do only 44.1k and 48k and you are trying to output DSD, it is not going to work...

 

I am not sure I understand what is going on though. It works fine until something in the chain gets broken.
Does this mean the communication between the DAC and HQPlayer gets broken or what?
I mean, I can still choose SDM or PCM in HQPlayer. 
BTW this configuration works fine when I give it a "fresh" start.

[mirekti]

1 hour ago, Miska said:

 

But the problem is that there are no legal DSD output rates. With DoP; 44100*16 = 705600 which HQPlayer doesn't allow as DSD sample rate. Neither 48000*16 = 768000.

 

 

I am not sure I am able to follow you. Do I have something wrong in my settings?
Just came from the office and did the following. Power off LIO -> Reboot PC -> Power on LIO -> Launched HQPlayer -> Launched Roon -> SDM Playback OK 
Also, I can see on the LIO display if it is PCM (it would show 44) or SDM (it shows 128),
I do see some warnings in the log, though. 
The log for the above starts at line 206, time 17:15:15

 

Do you think there's an issue with the LIO drivers or the PC?

HQPlayer - Copy.log

[mirekti]

...just a quick update. I figured out how to "reset" it. 

 

1. I need to turn LIO off.

2. Restart HQPlayer which will than complain there's no device.
3. Turn LIO back on
4. Start HQPlayer

 

Aftert I complete those four steps the playback is fine and I can see following in the log file:

ASIO default format is PCM
Rate available: 44100
Rate available: 48000
Rate available: 88200
Rate available: 96000
Rate available: 176400
Rate available: 192000
Rate available: 352800
Rate available: 384000
 

I do however wonder how all this is working as the numbers you mentioned were 705600 and 768000. 

[mirekti]

On 4/21/2017 at 2:58 AM, Miska said:

 

With those rates listed it should work up to DSD128 (possibly including 48x128)... Maybe some driver or firmware bug that causes it to lose those higher rates at some point. At least it is good to check that the device is not set as default audio output device for Windows. Multiple applications accessing the device simultaneously may cause strange behavior if the drivers are not specifically prepared to deal with such situations gracefully.

 

If you can find some systematic sequence of actions which causes the problem of lost rates, you could report that to the manufacturer.

 

I think I found a systematic sequence how to recover it.  

I would just like to make sure all is good from the HQPlayer side. The only way to recover from this state also includes HQPlayer.
Namely, I need to power off LIO, but I also need to exit from HQPlayer, turn it on again and when I see the error message the device is not ready, I exit HQPlayer again, power on LIO, start HQPlayer which defaults with it settings and when I pick SDM all is fine.
In case I only exit HQPlayer and launch HQPlayer again, it will not complain about the device (as LIO is still on), but it will load its last configuration (which is SDM), however it is not able to use it as it only gets 41000 and 48000 as seen in the previous logs.

 

Let me just sum up the sequence line by line to help with reading the mess I wrote above. 

System and issue:
1. Due to some restart in the chain DSD reproduction is not possible. 
2. The chain consist of Win 10 PC with HQPlayer and Vinnie Rossi LIO

How to recover it:
1. Turn LIO off

2. Exit HQPlayer

3. Start HQPlayer -> it reports the device is missing and gives some default settings. Something happens here which resets everything and make it work fine on the next try.

4. Turn LIO on

5. Start HQPlayer

6. Adjust settings on HQPlayer from Auto to SDM -> HQPlayer restores last SDM setting (poly-sinc-short-mp etc.)
7. Playback of DSD128 is ok either directly from HQPlayer or via Roon

Is there anything else what we could check on HQPlayer?
Is there a way to reset the connection to the device from HQPlayer the same way it is done in step 3?
If not, what logs should I actually collect and use in case I will need to reach out to the USB drivers' maker?

Thanks a lot!!!  

[mirekti]

15 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Have you checked that you don't accidentally have the same DAC enabled as a zone in Roon?

 

Cleaner way to reset should be:

1. Exit HQPlayer
2. Turn LIO off
3. Turn LIO on
4. Start HQPlayer

 

 

I will check that once I get home. 
Regarding the cleaner exit, for some reason this is not enough, I had to start and stop HQPlayer once LIO is off in order to somehow "clean up" the USB state. After that, I need to change from Auto to SDM in HQPlayer and it is ok. 

All in all, it is not so bad, it just occurs sometimes and than I need to follow my steps from above to recover it. World isn't perfect, right?

Thanks!!!