Neil young announces the launch of ponomusic

[Superdad]

$5m. Have they recouped their R&D and marketing costs yet?

Attracting investors is not the measure of commercial success. Making a profit is.

 

The 14,000+ people who have backed the PONO campaign are not investors--they are customers who have plunked down their money months in advance so they can be among the first to own a PONO player.

 

I'd be surprised if NY has spent more than about $120K on marketing so far. It has all been via free TV/radio/web publicity and their demo set-up at SXSW. Plus the PONOMusic.com web site and the Kickstarter campaign. All cheap stuff.

 

Unknown is how much was spent on tooling the prototype cases and developing the screen interface and early version of the DAC. Still I'd guess under $200-300K so far. As for Ayre now taking on development of the DAC/headphone amp, I bet that Charles & Co. sees that as a big publicity opportunity (and likely some royalty revenue) that will enhance the rest of their business later on. So putting a couple of people on it for a few months was a no-brainer, and I bet they did not ask for much cash up front.

 

So while yes, you are right that one metric of success will be measured in profit dollars later on, there are plenty of recent examples of wildly popular ventures where profits did/do not exist for several years. Twitter, Amazon, Instagram, Groupon--all do tons of business without much if any profit. I guess none of those can be considered a success in your book?

 

Besides, NY said they are not doing this to become the next iTunes. They would be happy just to start the revolution and movement back towards the music industry offering a higher quality product via the internet.

[Superdad]

deleted...

[Superdad]

Maybe the PONO will fail. It's too early to tell. It's not (as people keep saying) going after the same market as the iPod - which has mostly been decimated by the iPhone and other smart phones - it's after the smaller market of people who favour audio quality over convenience. Now how big PONO can make this market is unclear; but there are already devices for improving the audio quality of portable devices (portable headphone amplifiers and DAC/headphone amplifier combos) as well as semi portable devices for improving the output of a computer (Audioquest DragonFly and similar DACs). It's this market that (I believe) PONO are aiming for.

 

Now to become successful personally I think what is important is how PONO develop an ecosystem around PONO - a set of speakers for at home and a less portable device to replace your CD player with remote control and a larger display perhaps.

 

At the moment I agree with a commentator who suggested that PONO with its High Resolution audio is irrelevant and that lossy audio played through (for example) a NAD C3020 and a pair of Q Acoustic speakers will offer a bigger improvement to the "soul" of music; but that doesn't mean I think PONO will fail - even if it becomes a niche there is a big enough niche for a multitude of HiFi companies so PONO will at least fit in there...

 

And back to the iPod ... Well perhaps PONO will never get to be as big; but if you look at the reporting at the time the 1st Generation iPod everyone was suggesting it was a flash in the pan; that Apple were foolish for launching such a product and it would kill Apple... Don't those reporters look foolish now!

 

Eloise

 

Very good observations Eloise. As strange as it is to those of us not raised with headphones around our neck, the headphone market and aftermarket (amps, DACs, batteries, etc.) has been BOOMING for a few years now. According to industry stats (not at my fingertips right now for citing), the headphone market have been growing MUCH faster than the rest of the specially audio market for some time. That's why the offerings, portable and not--from both new and established firms--have been multiplying this past year at a dizzying rate.

 

Decent headphones (even just a well chosen $100 pair) do allow for a more direct path to the recording (no room acoustics, speakers, crossovers, power amps, cables, etc.), thus a quality reproduction chain can be assembled at a much lower price. Moreover, with no speakers and room acoustics involved, I am sure that the differences in file resolution--certainly between MP3/AAC and Redbook--are enough to get the attention and interest of even those in their teens and twenties (not that all of them have the money to spend on an expensive player).

 

Change takes time. As I have said before, my big hope is that Apple will eventually offer everything with an option for CD+ quality. Otherwise I will continue to buy CDs.

[Superdad]

Awesome post John. A great way to end this discussion for the night.

 

Thanks,

Alex C.

[Superdad]

Just noticed that they added a Buffalo Springfield signature edition to the KS campaign. Well that band included Richie Furay and Jim Messina, who went on to form another after Springfield broke up. So should we watch for the addition of a Poco PONO?

[Superdad]

I was more amused by testimonials from record producers proclaiming the pono playback in a car the best sound they have ever heard. Forget about those studio-grade mastering D/A converters, studio monitors, and acoustically-adopted studio rooms... "This, my friend, was the best sound I have ever heard" Umm.. ok....

 

Yes, I got a chuckle out of that too. Then I wondered if maybe the car was rigged for a bunch of nitrous-oxide (like at the dentist) to pump into the cabin while the music played. Actually, that would be a welcome component addition for home stereos. Not safe for the car if one is actually driving. Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson) I'm not.

 

[Superdad]

With the Onkyo app I played 24/96 in the car for the first time, Talk Talk's Spirit of Eden ….

Stephan

 

Okay Stephan, that is really spooky since Spirit of Eden is exactly what I had/have playing in the background when I read you post just a moment ago! And the player just moved to the first track from "The Color of Spring." Springtime indeed!

[Superdad]

Hi Chris,

 

my last comment was related to Neil Young's mention of resolution as a creative tool, related to his launch of Ponomusic.

 

Did you simply delete it or was it moved to another thread?

 

Thank you for clarifying,

Stephan

 

Good morning/evening Stephan:

 

It does appear that Chris deleted your post. I'd also would like to know why.

Although your post was slightly off topic (you did not preface it by pointing out Neil Young's discussion of of sample rate as a creative too--something I have brought up several times since I think the idea that people will tell the difference within a single song of some tracks at 16/44 and some at 24/96 is silly), I found nothing offensive in your post, save perhaps for the very last sentences where you used the words "scam" and "betrayal."

 

Lately Chris has deleted several of my posts--presumably for one sentence or phrase--and these posts contained other thought out points quite germane to the conversation. I wish he would at least send us a copy of our posts back to us, perhaps with the "offending" phrase highlighted or a couple word reason for deletion.

 

And Chris, not only is Stephan new here, English is not his first language, and he has several times wondered--in public and private--if he should stick around. I for one would be sad if he left, for as a accomplished musician/recordist with a long resume (see Stephan Mathieu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), I think he has a lot to contribute.

 

Since I am subscribed to this thread, I happened to see a copy of Stephan's post that was deleted. It is certainly more relevant than some of the drivel that has been added to this thread by others (myself included). Here it is for all to see:

 

***************

I was wondering about the following. Music has seen a massive mix of various bit depths, sample rates and recording media since decades. Be it for creative decisions or simply because that's all there was available by the time. 8-bit samplers like E-mu Systems’ Emulator, the Linn LM-1, Ensoniq Mirage, 16-bitty Fairlight or Synclavier, music from the 70's–90's is so full of them, much of it recorded to tape, and today available in the x-th' remaster. The original machines are highly sought after and see new use in a vast range of music. Imagine Prince' studio for his early albums, most of them are available 24/192 today (I'd loved to read more about those master's background, any pointers?).

 

Has this to be considered a scam? Where does the betrayal start?

 

Stephan

***************

 

P.S. Stepahn: Did you receive my long e-mail at your private address from yesterday? I am listening to one of your albums now!

[Superdad]

In addition I find your reposting of a removed post rather rude. …...

Someone has to moderate and make final decisions. If everybody moderates nobody moderates.

 

Please accept my apologies Chris.

I just was confused since it seemed arbitrary. In a thread approaching 1000 posts, there have been many others off topic and far move offensive. Of course I recognize that not only can you not be all places at once (and nobody pays you a salary to spend hours moderating), and that decisions of excision are not always cut-and-dry.

 

Anyway, you know I love this place and feel warmth towards most of the people here (even many of the ones I vehemently disagree with--as long as they are not nasty about it).

 

Cheers,

 

Alex C.

[Superdad]

First people asked me to enter a small sentence about why I remove posts. I agree this is good although more work. Now people appear to want personal emails with complete explanations. I can't honor that because it's too time intensive and the conversations never end.

 

Hi Chris: Until today I never knew there was such a thing as a paid subscription to CA! I just went ahead and prepaid for a year. Not a lot of action on those extra, subscriber-only forums, but I am very happy to support the site regardless.

 

To modify and be clear about my own prior requests, I'd just be happy if when you delete a post you just send it back to me with the word "DELETED." I promise not to ask why or to engage you in extra conversation, I just would like the text back so I can modify it or use it privately.

 

Thanks and regards,

Alex C.

[Superdad]

New update says John Hamm has stepped down as CEO.

 

He must have been a Mad Man. Oh no, wrong John Hamm

[Superdad]

In the age of the all-in-one smartphone, it was always going to be an uphill battle to convince more than a small handful of people to carry a second $400 portable device in order to realize gains in audio quality…

 

But wait, there is still 39 hours left for you to get in on the Geek Wave campaign: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/geek-wave-it-s-not-a-next-gen-ipod-it-s-a-no-compromise-portable-music-player

 

And that campaign gives you lots of choices. I just counted 52 different available levels of support available, with a half dozen or so 'concept' devices that you can hold in your hand--perhaps by 2016.

 

So get over there now and help them reach their last "stretch goal" of $1,174,076! That exact number was chosen because it is the amount their first campaign for the multi-model Geek Pulse line closed at--back in December 2013. (I'm hoping to receive my base unit by January 2015.)

 

Isn't crowdfleacing awesome? Especially in a category where trends and the enabling technologies change so fast.

 

Okay, everyone can go back to worrying about Pono now.

[Superdad]

Look on the bright side: we now have our Raoul Duke and Dr. Gonzo in place. Call it "Fear and Loathing in Hi-Res: A Savage Journey to the Heart of the Audiophile Dream".

 

We have GOT to get Ralph Steadman to do the artwork for the Pono promotional campaign:

 

[Superdad]

Am I the only one saying "Who?" ??

 

Omnifone is like Banana Phone--shaped like the Ponofone, or is that the Toblerfone? An inspired new model idea! I smell money. Quick, call Gavin Fish so another campaign can begin.

 

(Sorry, I am a bad boy today.)

[Superdad]

However, reading a post by you from 04-21-2013:

 

“I don't hold grudges. That's why I still look so much younger than my years ;-).”

 

made my day! The little extra things I can learn here on CA.

 

Hi Stephan! Are you back home now? How was Japan? Good to have back lurking around CA…

--Alex

[Superdad]

“Omnifone is providing the scalable music acquisition and delivery infrastructure but we are also working on some funky stuff such a technique to verify the provenance of the audio and its end-to-end signal path from the studio to the listener via the cloud.”

 

Did a corporate press release really use the phrase "funky stuff?" Wow.

[Superdad]

It should be Neil and some of his contemporaries rockin the place out!

 

Yeah, riiiiight. At 68 I'm afraid Mr. Young isn't, and his "contemporaries" are also quite a bit older than the SuperBowl crowd.

 

 

Separately, the new CSNY 1974 boxed set of that year's tour is awesome.

[Superdad]

Yeah; him, the Stones and Paul are all way too old to draw a crowd right?

 

Of course that Beyoncé is so much better than all those acts too right? We watched her and just shook our heads. Talk about a one note act.

 

No argument from me. And FWIW, my wife and were among the thousands who tried to arrive early to Sir Paul's farewell to Candlestick Park two weeks ago--only to be stuck right outside the stadium for THREE HOURS trying to park. (I had her get out and walk about 1/2 hour after the show started, I missed an hour of it.)

Median age of those in attendance? Let's just say that the AARP should have had a membership booth there.

[Superdad]

Lets see now. Pono supports MP3 but its not an MP3 player. As for the format list, an iPod supports AIFF, WAV, ACC, and ALAC and MP3. So the only "advantage" of Pono is FLAC.

 

Well no, iPods/iPhones will accept tracks only to a maximum sample rate of 48KHz. Pono can accept much higher rates (which is an advantage when you have the source material or even if you upsample as it reduces steepness requirements for the digital filters).

 

And not having to convert from FLAC to an uncompressed format is an advantage in that it eliminates the hassle of converting from the smaller file size format--whose lower net bandwidth requirements make lossless downloads practical for more users. FLAC is also nice in that it is well supported across computing platforms (save for iTunes) and has good metadata tagging.

 

 

Kids won't spend the extra money on "high rez" download. In fact, more and more they just listen on streaming services like spotify. They look at music as disposable, and few of them actually pay for downloads. As for the SDTV/HDTV, that analogy may be valid for MP3 vs the redbook rip you can currently play on an iPod, but it isn't remotely true comparing redbook with "high rez". And remember those "kids" more and more are watching tv on their phones on screens the size of postage stamps.

 

"Kids" don't buy anything--their parents do. Young adults however--including college and beyond--do buy things, and they are the driving force behind this past decade's massive growth in the headphone and headphone amp/DAC market, now over $8 billion worldwide annually, 40% of that being over-the-ear headphones.

So frankly any half-assed company with decent distribution channels can make quite a bit of money in the "personal audio" space. Despite his age, Neil Young's "rockness" manages to straddle at least a couple of generations, so their quirky player, good story, and inroads with the music labels are sure to result in, if not huge success, at least greater awareness of what is possible.

 

You're still not clear. You say you have access to the entire CD Lossless catalog. Doesn't Apple have the same access?

 

Where you been? Apple continues to sell only low bit-rate lossy tracks. No Redbook level or anything above from Apple yet. And they are a bit tied up right now with Beats Music streaming and other things.

 

Now I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were asking if Apple has "access" to lossless tracks from the same record companies. I don't know the true answer to that, but it is safe to assume the barrier is an economic, not technical one. The record companies are likely to want more money per track/album for sale of lossless, and Apple makes quite a large margin on the format it currently sells. To continue to make such a mark-up, they might have to sell tracks closer to $2 each and may be calculating it is not the direction they or the market-at-large are going in. That is certainly valid for them, but it won't serve the needs of the share of the populace who want something better.

Remember, fast food chains and fine independent restaurants happily--and profitably--coexist.

[Superdad]

Bring back Laser Disc ! You could fit clean multi channel DIGITAL sound on them, and play them without having to turn them over after each side,(the player can do that for you) and the old guys could even read the artwork without hunting around trying to remember where they last had their reading glasses!

 

Guess I'll show my age here. Aside from Laserdiscs being an analog video format, they also had FM modulated stereo ANALOG tracks on them. I had a friend who modified the audio decoder stage of the players to output much better audio form those FM tracks. Sadly, the studios gave short shrift to the mastering quality of the analog and put more effort into the Dolby Digital tracks, which, ironically, were also encoded in an FM track normally used for the analog audio. And that AC3-RF used a carrier of 2.88MHz--which people fed into a demodulator to feed the decoder at 384Kbps, for final output via, you guessed it S/PDIF (at 16bit/44.056KHz).

[Superdad]

I have kept the Pioneer combo player along with the Sony Anniversary BetaMax player.

 

Richard: Do you use your Elcaset player much these days?

 

I used to have a Sony NT digital recorder. For those not familiar with this, the tiniest digital tape format ever made 3cm x 2cm x 5mm, check out

I also was pedaled by one firm as a tape data back-up format, but companies did take to it as it was too small and did not reliable. Plus it always seemed to me to invite corporate data theft (much as thumb drives do today).

[Superdad]

 

From Pono's Kickstarter page

 

Oct 7 2014

 

Greetings Pono Kickstarter Supporters,

 

 

Well that is all quite clear. If only Light Harmonic could put out such clear and to the point communications. It's coming up on a year and I still--despite receiving lots of e-mail new bulletins--have not a clue as to when I should expect to receive my Geek Pulse.

 

Sorry to be OT. Return to Pono. Kind of wish I had ordered one of those instead of the Geek Pulse.

I was chatting on the phone with Charles Hansen a last month, and he brought up Pono and raved about how awesome it is going to sound. Then he had to get off our call--because Neil Young was on the other line!

[Superdad]

For me, discovery is the killer-app for the subscription services.

 

+10!