Upgrade suggestions

[spike9876]

Hi spike9876,

 

So, my first suggestion would be to address the room. This can take the form of a commercial solution (such as ACS's wonderful Tube Traps) or a DIY (do it yourself) solution

 

Hi Barry,

 

I should have mentioned this... but my room is filled with bass traps & acoustic panels. In each corner I have bass traps and I have absorption panels in side walls, ceiling & back walls...

 

Using commercial panels has improved my audio...

[bdiament]

Hi spike9876,

 

Hi Barry,

 

I should have mentioned this... but my room is filled with bass traps & acoustic panels. In each corner I have bass traps and I have absorption panels in side walls, ceiling & back walls...

 

Using commercial panels has improved my audio...

 

Sounds like a good thing for sure.

Do keep in mind that bass traps in the corners will address the fundamental resonant modes but not the first or second harmonics of those modes. First harmonics are addressed at the mid-points along each boundary; second harmonics at the quarter-points. From your description, I would think the fundamentals and first harmonics are the ones to focus on.

 

I favor cylindrical traps in order get sufficient depth to reach (and control) far enough down in frequency. However, if you don't find any issues at the bottom, you are in good shape to investigate other areas for upgrade.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

[alexwgoody]

Do you have any way to prove that your acoustic panels/bass traps were placed in the most effective manner? Simply putting these in the corners or in semi-random locations does not cut it. Ideally an acoustics engineer would come in and place these optimally, though you can do a lot with a microphone and software to measure any ringing/frequency range anomalies in the room.

 

You have very good gear, I'm not sure you'd get too much benefit unless you made drastic/expensive change s- upgrading your speakers would likely give the greatest benefit (assuming your panels/bass traps are placed optimally), but I doubt you want to do this.

[alexwgoody]

I thought of a few other options that many with maxed out gear will consider:

 

1. Make the room quieter and/or make it so you can play louder

2. use more room treatments as necessary - though you do not want the room entirely dead, don't go too far with these

3. Perhaps EQ would be beneficial?

4. Calibrate your TV

5. Whiskey?

6. Explore surround options beyond 5.1

7. More subs can be helpful, especially for rumble below 20hz

[spike9876]

Hi spike9876,

 

 

 

Sounds like a good thing for sure.

Do keep in mind that bass traps in the corners will address the fundamental resonant modes but not the first or second harmonics of those modes. First harmonics are addressed at the mid-points along each boundary; second harmonics at the quarter-points. From your description, I would think the fundamentals and first harmonics are the ones to focus on.

 

I favor cylindrical traps in order get sufficient depth to reach (and control) far enough down in frequency. However, if you don't find any issues at the bottom, you are in good shape to investigate other areas for upgrade.

 

Best regards,

Barry

 

Since I have a small space that I also use as a living room... placing more acoustic panels is probably not a good thing....

 

For absorption, I placed 2x4 panels in side & ceiling (getting the first reflection points).

 

I do use a software with a mic that measures frequency response... My frequency response is OK except in the 300Hz area... (there is a dip in this area)... but in lower range... it is within 5db's.

 

I think if I do want to improve sound... I probably will look at upgrading speakers... Maybe the B&W 800 series.... But since I don't do dedicated 2 channel... (when listening to music I set pre-pro to use 2.2 instead of multi channel).

 

I have dedicated subs... For left & right speakers, does it make sense to upgrade to the 805 diamond (book shelf) versus a tower like the 804 ??

 

Regards.

[bdiament]

Hi spike9876,

 

Since I have a small space that I also use as a living room... placing more acoustic panels is probably not a good thing....

 

For absorption, I placed 2x4 panels in side & ceiling (getting the first reflection points).

 

I do use a software with a mic that measures frequency response... My frequency response is OK except in the 300Hz area... (there is a dip in this area)... but in lower range... it is within 5db's.

 

I think if I do want to improve sound... I probably will look at upgrading speakers... Maybe the B&W 800 series.... But since I don't do dedicated 2 channel... (when listening to music I set pre-pro to use 2.2 instead of multi channel).

 

I have dedicated subs... For left & right speakers, does it make sense to upgrade to the 805 diamond (book shelf) versus a tower like the 804 ??

 

Regards.

 

If you are happy with the room as is, consider other areas for an upgrade.

 

My opinion:

The problem with software that measures frequency response is that room issues are time-based, not amplitude-based. So to get the real picture, you'd need software that measures frequency response over time. Without the time element, the picture is at very best, not sufficiently complete to make an accurate assessment.

 

The dip at 300 Hz could be a function of several things, among them, speaker and/or listening position placement, and/or inadequate treatment of the length and width room mode harmonics.

 

By the way, despite what some would believe, proper placement of well-designed basic room mode treatments is easy insomuch as it is *always* in the same place. In other words, the fundamental resonant modes are always treated in the corners, the first harmonics always at the half points, and the second harmonics always at the quarter points. This is dictated by the physics of sound waves in enclosed spaces. The only measuring device necessary is a tape measure to accurately find the half and quarter points. (Hopefully, a measuring device is not necessary to find the corners. ;-})

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

[spike9876]

Hi spike9876,

 

 

 

If you are happy with the room as is, consider other areas for an upgrade.

 

My opinion:

The problem with software that measures frequency response is that room issues are time-based, not amplitude-based. So to get the real picture, you'd need software that measures frequency response over time. Without the time element, the picture is at very best, not sufficiently complete to make an accurate assessment.

 

The dip at 300 Hz could be a function of several things, among them, speaker and/or listening position placement, and/or inadequate treatment of the length and width room mode harmonics.

 

By the way, despite what some would believe, proper placement of well-designed basic room mode treatments is easy insomuch as it is *always* in the same place. In other words, the fundamental resonant modes are always treated in the corners, the first harmonics always at the half points, and the second harmonics always at the quarter points. This is dictated by the physics of sound waves in enclosed spaces. The only measuring device necessary is a tape measure to accurately find the half and quarter points. (Hopefully, a measuring device is not necessary to find the corners. ;-})

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

 

Yes, software does measure time decay... If I remember there was a slight issue at 63Hz.. but not much...

 

I also used software to determine best sub placements...

 

The first & second harmoincs... how are these treated ? With bass traps ?

[bdiament]

Hi spike9876,

 

Yes, software does measure time decay... If I remember there was a slight issue at 63Hz.. but not much...

 

I also used software to determine best sub placements...

 

The first & second harmoincs... how are these treated ? With bass traps ?

 

I'd be curious to know what the software is. If the first and second harmonics of the room modes in a square room are not treated, there should be a bit more visible than "a slight issue at 63Hz". Also, what kind of mic are you using and how many positions are you taking measurements from?

 

The first and second harmonics I refer to are the harmonics of the fundamental resonant modes of the room. There is a fundamental resonant mode for each dimension: length, width and height. When two or more dimensions are the same, such as in your 11 x 11 space, the modes for those two dimensions will reinforce each other. I have worked with folks who have square rooms and in my experience, there is much to be gained from proper treatment of the fundamentals and any harmonics up to ~300 Hz. I always treat these with bass traps -- but of the cylindrical type as the flat traps available tend to be only a fraction of the thickness (e.g. a 4" thick flat trap vs. a 16" diameter column).

 

Please understand, I'm only voicing my own perspective and what *I'd* do in a similar space. I understand you may like the treatments you currently use and the means of ascertaining the status of the room. Just trying to be helpful but realize your goals may take you in a different direction than the way I'd go.

Whichever way you go, Happy Listening!

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

[spike9876]

Hi spike9876,

 

 

 

I'd be curious to know what the software is. If the first and second harmonics of the room modes in a square room are not treated, there should be a bit more visible than "a slight issue at 63Hz". Also, what kind of mic are you using and how many positions are you taking measurements from?

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

 

I use XTZ Room Analyzer II Pro (this comes with a mic).

[h=1][/h]My room is a multipurpose... It opens to a kitchen and a living room... so it is somewhat a bit open space...

[spike9876]

Forgot to add... When taking measurements... I mainly take them from main Listening position....

 

Frequency response does change when I change mic in a different seating position...