First Post! DACMagic to Imac (via Airport Express) sounds terrible, especially on the high end...

[petervandommelen]

I do love my music and am a very critical listener and have an old but rock solid Yamaha amplifier and Tannoy speakers (and Nakamichi cassette player - remember those!?) ... but still being sceptical that I can get my ripped collection of music actually to sound as original CDs, I have made the jump to DAC Magic with Toslink connection to Airport Express (music from Imac - Itunes)...

 

Well, was I dissapointed or what. I first thought that my tweeters (not sure if that's what the speaker component for the high frequencies are called in English) had blown up. Well they hadn't but that is the way it sounded. The bass / lows kind of seem OK.

 

I guess I am doing something completely wrong and kind find out what. Tonight I will try to connect my Imac directly to the DAC Magic and see if it gets any better...

 

Any help or suggestions will be highly appreciated. I am living in Vietnam and it's not the kind of place you can go to a shop and get some decent advise on these matters...

 

Cheers,

 

Peter

 

[audioengr]

Make sure that you are using a good glass toslink cable, and no adapter. The plastic adapters for the AE are terrible. The problem is jitter.

 

Steve N.

 

[petervandommelen]

Thanks Steve this is much appreciated!

 

I must say that I am surprised how Apple would ever let something this serious happen, there is really no point buying an Airport Express and Toslink cable (with mini adapter) and get this poor quality sound of what is supposed to be digital... Why would anybody buy a DAC then?

 

I just spent 100$ in Bangkok 2 days ago on cable and adapter (nothing available in Vietnam).

 

Let me continue demonstrating my ignorance by asking a couple more questions which are probably :

- Will a good glass Toslink cable (with mini-toslink at one side) get significantly rid off the jitter though for a critical listener like me?

- If connecting the iMac directly (without the Airport Express) to the DAC Magic, would this be an option and get ridd of the jitter? iMac is about 15 meters from my DAC Magic / Stereo.

- Is ripping in another format / frequency / kbits an option?

 

Again, appreciate all your help!!!

 

 

 

[PeterSt]

If you claim to be a critical listener, than I claim that you should ditch the AE. But I'm afraid that "critical" may say nothing much, so you use the AE and I never will.

 

However, the above may be more for others than for you, and I believe something is just wrong, but I can't tell what. Jitter ? Steve may be correct, but personally I'd rather get rid of my tweeters at too high jitter values.

 

In either case, I guess it is not a problem to move the computer to the stereo for testing and leave the AE out ?

But I estimate that isn't it.

 

- Is ripping in another format / frequency / kbits an option?

 

The fact that you ask this question looks a bit dangerous by itself. You will have normal CD's and whatever is on there, it should remain untouched. Somehow you Apple guys ask these kind of questions, and I guess the ripping stuff in there just challenges to do wrong !

Remain untouched means : 16 bits 44100 sample rate.

 

I think you may have the best chance of improvement by just not using iTunes. No matter how much you like it, from all the problems everybody has with it, I derive that it is too tough to operate well for good SQ (if it ever has). So to be very simple : a wrong setting of an active EQ (which is wrong by itself but seems to be default for many) is a most viable exlanation for your problem.

Don't try to get it right ... go get another player. If you *then* know what can be squeezed out of it all, go back if you like. You'll have the reference.

 

HTH,

Peter

 

 

[petervandommelen]

Thanks Peter,

 

No Equalizer still gives the same poor quality.

It really sounds like the tweeters have blown up (guess that's more than 'normal' jitter?).

Will try your other suggestions later.

 

Could you share your setup (especially player)?

 

Thanks again,

 

Peter

 

[Codifus]

Peter,

 

there are so many parameters that could have a negative effect on sound.

 

1st off, are you ripping your CDs as AIFF or WAV? If MP3, then ditch those files and start again. The MP3 ripper within iTunes is only so so. Set iTunes to import CDs into AIFF at 44.1/16 stereo. If you must compress and want the best quality lossy compression, then use AAC at 320 kbps.

 

Secondly, for bit perfect output from CD you should do all of this;

 

Audio Midi should be set to 44.1/16 and volume set to max or 100.

 

in Itunes;

set the volume to maximimum.

turn off soundcheck, sound enhancer, crossfade etc.

turn off the equalizer.

 

You will find most of these setting inside itunes preferences.

Also, be sure to quit and relaunch itunes after making any changes in audio midi.

 

You could also find other useful tips by searching this site. There are alot of threads that have gone into greater detail on how to optimize itunes.

 

Oh, and if your optical cable is iffy, try straightening it out. In other words, orient your airport express and dac magic such that the cable connecting between them is straight. This will minimize reflections within the cable. Remember, that cable is passing light, not electrons. If you do notice an improvement in sound, then that cable has defnitely got to go.

 

HTH

 

CD

 

 

[BEEMB]

 

Seems strange that it sounds so bad. I think the format to which you are ripping would be the first port of call. I doubt a cable will make that much difference - the AE is known to have quite high levels of jitter but a decent DAC should cope with that just fine and jitter is not the issue today that it used to be. If you're ripping to a low bit rate you might notice it - but I think AAC at 256k + should sound pretty good for most tracks though uncompressed/lossless is obviously best.

 

I can sit and compare XXHighEnd with MediaMonkey with iTunes via the AE vs iTunes via Vista's audio engine with Foobar and I must say the difference, if there is any, seems quite minimal. One of these days I'll get around to measuring it.

 

There's a user over at What hifi who ditched his Cyrus CD player on buying the DAC Magic, so I'm assuming that's okay. HiFi Choice also did a DAC roundup and stated the differences between the DAC's at all prices was very minimal, hence the DacMagic then won the test.

Could it be an issue with your wireless network ? Could it be iTunes 8 rearing it's ugly "upgraded I don't support all wireless routers" head again.?

 

Have a play around as advised above and let us know how you get on. Take care not so spend loads of money and borrow/try items where you can. Be careful which forums you visit as many will encourage you to spend hundreds when you don't need to.

 

It'll be interesting to hear whether connecting your Mac directly to the DAC makes a difference.

 

 

Matt.

 

[PeterSt]

Could you share your setup (especially player)?

 

I'm sorry Peter, but I don't use iTunes, If I would have been able to tell you the "good" settings and all what to look for, I sure would have done it.

I'm using Vista with XXHighEnd (a few people may laugh now).

 

But as you said yourself, what you describe from your tweeters can hardly be jitter.

But if it's no equalizing thing, and you also don't hear distortion, and everything else is right, I can only think of a 96kbps MP3 ...

 

Peter

 

[audioengr]

"Will a good glass Toslink cable (with mini-toslink at one side) get significantly rid off the jitter though for a critical listener like me?"

 

It will make a big improvement in the AE, which itself has a lot of jitter.

 

"If connecting the iMac directly (without the Airport Express) to the DAC Magic, would this be an option and get ridd of the jitter? iMac is about 15 meters from my DAC Magic / Stereo."

 

15 meters is a LONG cable. I dont recommend it. You are best off using a WiFi solution.

 

Better stock solution is a used Squeezebox2. Jittery, but a lot less than the AE and you can use a good S/PDIF coax cable with it. The only downside is the player, Squeezecenter.

 

"Is ripping in another format / frequency / kbits an option?"

 

Ripping it critical. If you use Mac, then download the latest version 8 iTunes. Rip with correction enabled. Rip to AIFF or .wav, not ALAC.

 

Even better rips result using dbpoweramp and a PC and then move the files to the Mac.

 

Once you have the 44.1 native rips, then enable upsampling to 24/96 using Utilities - MIDI options - output

 

Upsampling to 24/96 will sound even better with most DACs.

 

Steve N.

Empirical Audio

 

 

[petervandommelen]

Thanks Steve for taking time to reply,

 

I have now figured out there was faulty input in my amplifier.

Swapped to the Aux and am getting a very decent sound now.

I was getting worried as even my 4-year old was complaining how rubbish the music was...

 

I can still hear a big difference between the original CD and the ripped version though. "Lack of punch" is how I would describe it. I tried but didn't manage to get the iMac directly connected to my DAC Magic for some reason. Neither of the two outputs on the iMac where the mini-adapter Toslink would go into gave me a signal. Probably doing something really stupid again. But I would like to find out if it's the AE or the iMac (or both). Will continue trying.

 

And, as from your comments, I will now go back to the drawing board in terms of (re-)ripping.

You mention dbpoweramp (for PC), so is there no alternative that can do as well but directly on a Mac?

 

Again thanks to you all, I appreciate your quick support!

 

Peter

 

[usernaim250]

On the DacMagic, their website blurb claims to deal with jitter with upsampling/DSP, and this Hi-Fi Choice review claims they could neither hear nor measure any differences between sources on the unit.

http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/assets/documents/Hi-FiChoiceAwards08DacMagicrvwlicensed.pdf

 

Meanwhile, Steve, do you have any empirical evidence for your jitter claims about the Airport Express? The only published tests I know contradict your claims.

"The grayed-out trace in fig.7 shows a similar spectral analysis of the Musical Fidelity X-DACV3's analog output while it was driven by the AirPort Express via the Monster TosLink cable. The noise floor has dropped by 4–5dB, the word-clock jitter to a respectably low 258ps, which is actually better than the case with the standalone D/A processor driven directly by my PC's S/PDIF output (provided by an RME PCI card). ....The beauty of this unassuming component, however, is its S/PDIF data output, which allows the AirPort Express to assume a respectable role in a true high-end audio system. "

http://stereophile.com/digitalprocessors/505apple/

 

For comparison, measuring the same DAC:

"Musical Fidelity claims very low jitter for the X-DACV3. Using an older version of the Miller Audio Research Jitter Analyzer that Musical Fidelity uses, I got slightly higher figures than MF's figures: 300 picoseconds peak–peak with 16-bit data fed from my PC with a TosLink connection, 244ps p–p using a coaxial connection from a PS Lambda transport—both figures are still low in absolute terms."

http://stereophile.com/digitalprocessors/1204mf/index2.html

 

In other words, AE: 258ps, PS Audio Lambda, a highly rated expensive dedicated transport: 244ps. Either is likely to be lower than OP's cd player, despite the Toslink.

 

What the OP describes if it is not hyperbole, is not about a few wrongly tweaked settings of iTunes, nor even mp3 transcodes, nor some jitter from a TOS cable. It sounds like something worse, a bad (analog) connection or a failing component.

 

 

[Codifus]

Peter,

 

I wouldn't be so quick to abandon the ripper inside iTunes. The main reason the the iTunes ripper is pooh-poohed is because when it doesn't get the rip right, it says nothing and completes the rip. How often it does not get the rip right isn't that much, though.

 

Other rippers like EAC and dbpoweramp thoroughly verify the rip and give detailed reporting on the accuracy of the rip. If you need to get the rip right every single time, then dbpoweramp or EAC is for you. I tend to let Itunes on my Mac do all the ripping, and if I come across a bad rip, I re-rip it using an external ripper then re- import and replace. Of the hundred of CDs I've importing, maybe like 7 to 10 of them had to be redone. Also, I rip straight to AIFF first, then decide whether I want to convert to lossless or AAC afterwards. I chose this method so that Itunes concentrates on grabbing the data from CD and puts it into a file. No overhead of grabbing and compressing simultaneously.

 

How often does this issue of bad rips really come into play? When you have CDs that are suspect. Dodgy CDs that may not have been well cared for. Scratches, CDRs etc.

 

For your CDs that are in pristine condition, make sure error correction is on in iTunes and rip away. When it comes to ripping CDs in good shape, the iTunes ripper easily hangs with EAC and all the other ripping applications.

 

If you Google iTunes and EAC you'll come across a multitude RIP comparisons. Be wary, though, as these comparisons are more often done with iTunes on a PC. The Mac version of iTunes is better integrated with the OS... I wonder why:)

 

CD

 

[Max]

How often do you get a bad rip? It's generally cheaper to just buy a new copy of a CD which fails to import well, than to faff around finding, installing, & using some fancy piece of software which probably can't do that much better anyway. FWIW I have one CD which is literally unplayable on a 'normal' CD transport, but which imports perfectly acceptably in iTunes on a PPC Mac Mini combo drive.

 

On the OP's topic: let this serve as a reminder to always check the basics first, before diving in with an audiophile critique of the system...

 

Max

 

[glt]

Yeah, I am an iTunes fan also. Whether or not you can extract the data from a "bad" CD depends on the hardware... and you can't tell by just reading the specs. CDRInfo does audio extraction tests on their reviews which helps you select the drive with best audio extraction performance...

 

[Rob]

Hello Peter,

Have you tried connecting your DAC directly to your Imac through a short USB cable? Did you revert your stereo system back to it's "pre DAC" state to see if your system is OK? Whenever something goes wrong, always use the process of elimination, starting with the simplest, then work your way to the most complex. This way you will likely find the culprit. Complete loss of top end frequencies sounds like something more serious is going on than jitter, bad rip, or low bit rate rip. I listen to internet radio among other formats, which generally are streamed at 128 KBS (vs CD quality at 1400 KBS) and though the quality is poor compared to CD, the high frequencies are still there.

 

Rob

 

[petervandommelen]

Hi Rob,

 

Thanks! Yes I tried connecting the iMac directly to the DAC through the short USB as well, but didn't get any signal either. I'm quite new to Mac as well. I looked at the Audio MIDI set-up settings, but only saw the Audio Output for the Built-in Audio output, I was wondering if somewhere here the connection to the DAC Magic should show up? Fiddled around with the settings but still didn't get any signal into the DAC Magic...

 

Any further thoughts?

 

Peter

 

[Mr.C]

As to getting the signal into the iMac optical out, I've many a time inadvertently left the setting in itunes to the airport express instead of built in output (bottom right drop down menu).

 

Yes, the connection should show up in Audio MIDI in the drop down menu by "default output".

 

[audioengr]

"You mention dbpoweramp (for PC), so is there no alternative that can do as well but directly on a Mac?"

 

iTunes version 8 with correction enabled.

 

Steve N.

 

[audioengr]

"Meanwhile, Steve, do you have any empirical evidence for your jitter claims about the Airport Express?"

 

Sure, I have made measurements with my scope and done listening tests. These are both empirical. Measurements with equipment are not the only empirical measurements. My ears can measure too.

 

It is simply the worst jitter WiFi device I have heard, which validates the measurements.

 

Low jitter is:

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue43/jitter.htm

 

Steve N.

Empirical Audio

 

steve N.

 

[Rob]

Peter,

 

Plug your DAC in via USB and select the USB input on your DAC.

Go to System Preferences, then Sound, then Output. A list should be there with a heading saying "choose a device for sound output". Your DAC should appear in that list. Select it and close System Preferences. Next, open Audio Midi, then Audio Devices and under Audio Output format to 44,100 Hz and 2ch-16bit or 96,000 Hz and 24bit if it shows. Beside "default output" your DAC should show. That is how my 16/44 DAC works with my aluminum Intel Imac. You may need to change "system output" from "Built in Output" to your DAC too, but on mine I haven't, and things work fine. I realize this set up will not allow you to bring native 24/96 into your DAC but it is a start, as the optical connection can be iffy depending on cable quality.

 

Rob

 

[Audio_ELF]

One question for you ... and other posters ... is what is the rest of your systems and what is your reference point.

 

You say that the Airport Express and DAC Magic setup doesn't sound as good as the original CDs - I assume from that you mean when you play the CD on a CD player - but what CD player?

 

Have you tried connecting the CD player to the DAC Magic via optical or coax? How do that compare to the Airport Express and DAC Magic combination?

 

Are you comparing the new DAC to a Sony bottom of the range player, or to a Meridian 808 CD player? What amplifier? What speakers? Without knowing what you are expecting the new kit to provide in terms of quality, it's difficult to know whether to say you have a broken DAC or whether you have over the top expectations.

 

People on this forum have wildly varying kit levels from my reading ... and it's very difficult to know what expectations are.

 

Just a few thoughts ...

Eloise

 

[usernaim250]

I'm starting a new thread about the Airport Express and its performance.

 

[petervandommelen]

Thanks Eloise,

 

There are always better CD players and better amplifiers.

I don't have bottom of the range stuff, but even with my 15-year old (then top-end) Marantz, Yamaha and Tannoy set up (or Sennheizer headphones) I can notably hear the CD sounding much better.

 

Still working on connecting my iMac directly to the DAC Magic so as to see how much the difference will be then,

 

Peter

 

[machinehead]

Funny, the TOSLINK standard calls for plastic optical audio cable, not glass. Agreed that eliminating an adapter could help but not necessarily.

 

[dointhefish]

...I used to have a DACMagic and thought for a while that my Krell amp was the problem in my set up. Well once I replaced it with an Audio Research DAC7 it became clear that the DACMagic was a POS compared to the rest of my components. My whole system sings now without the DACMagic. I have come to the conclusion that the bottom line is that you get what you pay for. At $400 (or 450 or w/e) the DACMagic won't compare to the performance of a good CD player. And forget about any kind of jitter reduction at that price point.

 

To my mind and experience, spend more on a DAC (say a Benchmark or a Lavry) and you'll start seeing the results you're after. I'm listening to iTunes streaming to an AE into my DAC7 right now and it's as sweet as can be. Even outperforms my NAD CD player.

 

Just my 2 pfennigs.

Andrew

 

iTunes on MacPro QuadCore->AirPort Extreme BR->AirProt Extreme LR->AirPort Express->AR DAC7->Audioquest Colorado XLR cable->Krell KAV-400xi->Elac FS 607 X-Jets