Mutec MC-3+

[Dev]

Yes, I agree. A simplified solution is very much required. There seems to be quiet a few combinations of these USB fixes - Intona, Regen, RUR. Maybe this will be the one that fits the bill for most of us - Its also a DDC which is a added bonus. I am very much interested how this work together with Yggy along with a CAPs like music server. There is at least one member (goldengate) who likes it very much with his Yggy. I also read having the Intona in front of the Mutec also might do wonders.

 

Anybody has the BADA and compared it with the Mutec ?

[Dev]

I have a using a PPA v2 card in my CAPs build and have been following this thread on Mutec USB with great interest. Has anybody compared the SQ with Pang v3/v4 USB card with the Mutec ? Or are the OCXO clock module in v3/v4 card completely redundant with the Mutec ?

[Dev]

That was exactly my point to see if v3/v4 should make further improvement since that's the source of the signal. Are you saying that the source of the signal is a non-issue with the Mutec ?

 

On a side node, is anybody using the Intona along with the Mutec as well and see any improvements ? For USB isolation perspective, both are doing the same thing, obviously the Mutec does more.

[Dev]

MC-3+USB with Intona - progress report

 

Today I noticed there's some flutter with HQPlayer set to 5ms buffer only in certain parts of random tracks, didn't happen with the Mutec alone.

 

I am very interested to know your opinion. Does the Mutec makes the Intona redundant ?

[Dev]

Well, as a matter of fact I tried :-). I used the AFIS first to benefit from the high-end isolation, and sent the AES/EBU output to the Mutec cascade. In fact this does not help a lot. On the opposite I would say that the benefits of the clearer voices separation when listening to 'La Traviata' disappeared. So I left the test here for the time being.

 

How much does the Acousence AFIS-USB cost ? anybody know if it works under Windows environment ?

[Dev]

AFI-USB (one input/one output) is around 1'000 EUR excl VAT. Price inside EU is 1'170 EUR incl VAT.

AFIS-USB (four inputs/two outputs) is around 1'650 EUR excl VAT. Price inside EU is 1'980 EUR incl VAT.

Need to add at least one output cable for 50 EUR.

 

 

Pretty much independent of the OS.

 

Sorry, I am bit confused. Is it not a DDC per say which takes USB input and reclock to SPDIF ? If so, wouldn't Windows need drivers ?

[Dev]

I had the BADA sometime back and sold it after comparing it to Schiit Yggy/Regen combo. The BADA didn't take anything away or made anything worse but there wasn't any improvements that I could hear when it was inline with the chain. I also have the PS Audio Directstream and landed up with the same result. Recently I acquired the Intona and it makes the Regen redundant. I was hoping that the Mutec would be a great addition because of the USB isolation and reclocking (possibly with better clock than PPA v2 or v4 card ?) but the BADA comparison is somewhat disturbing (maybe I was having sellers remorse :-)). I have no idea on the Lyngdorf TDAI dac used in the comparison and have assumed they are in the same league as Schiit Yggy or PS audio.

[Dev]

I know it is very unlikely, but has anyone compared two Mutec 3+USBs against a BADA. It'll be interesting to know if the stacked Mutec's surpass the performance of the BADA. If that's the case it would be more frugal to simply go the BADA route. I know all this is subjective, however, I am yet to see a comparison of a single Mutec 3+ (not sure if USB version) vs. BADA where the Mutec comes out on top. I got an Intona a week ago, and I am planning on going with either the Mutec/BADA/HYdra-Z. I just need to do my homework thoroughly here before making the jump.

I am in the same boat. I have an Intona with RUR in the chain and wondering if any spif reclocking device, like Mutec or BADA would provide additional benefit. I would have gotten the Mutec by now if it had the I2S out for the PS audio DS dac which sounds best on the I2S input than the AES/EBU. I have a cheap Gustard U12 and didn't find it to improve over when connected directly to the DAC with the Intona/RUR in the chain. Without the Intona/RUR, the U12 did provide some SQ improvements though.

[Dev]

Does anyone else play around with the buffer settings in the Mutec control panel? I noticed there are 7 settings (minimum latency, low latency, standard, relaxed, reliable, safe, extra safe). I think I hear very subtle differences (but it also could be in my head). Currently using "relaxed".

 

Just curious - does it use Thesycon drivers or Mutec's own recipe ?

[Dev]

Hi there,

 

Yes, MUTEC does use a custom-modified version of Thesycon driver, because we've found it's one of the best available. We've recently had the guys at JPLAY evaluate the MC-3+USB and they gave us terrific feedback for the driver and the overall sound quality performance. It seems like they were a bit surprised by how much their system benefited from the MC-3+USB ;-)

 

Julian

 

 

Hi Julian,

 

Thanks and its good to know that it uses the Thesycon drivers. It is indeed a very stable one in Windows OS and I am hoping that the control panel to set the buffers, latency, etc is enabled as well.

 

Yes, I am a Jplay user as well and aware of that thread you are talking about. I know folks here, like gldgate, uses it with Schiit Yggy to very good effect. I am interested to know if anyone is using it with the PS Audio DS DAC as well ?

[Dev]

Dev, I can confirm the control panel gas controls for buffer and sample size.

 

 

Thanks Tboooe.

 

Another question to the Mutec owners using with a DSD capable DAC - does the Mutec re-clocks and passes DoP as is or does it always converts into PCM ? In case it always converts to PCM, does it determine the sample rate on the fly ? From the description, it appears that it can do quad rate DSD (256) which seems to be equivalent to 384Khz. Are the SPDIF outputs, like the AES capable of handling such bandwidth ?

[Dev]

All DSD is converted to PCM at a fixed user selected sample rate up to 196 I believe. .

 

You meant to say 192 I guess ?

[Dev]

That's right. The Mutec accepts native DSD to 256 and Dop to 128, my memory is poor on the DoP but 128 minimum.

DSD is a nightmare to reclock it's not technically possible, so the output is Pcm. The highest multiple of 44.1kHz is 4x so best to use 176.4. If your DAC is 96 only, then use 88KHz instead, so definitely adjustable .

I've been using DSD out from pc for months, settled on DSD128 input to the Mutec with 176.4 to the DAC.

 

I am assuming the DSD /DoP conversion is independent of PCM signal and Mutec won't touch the PCM input stream but would just re-clock it as the incoming clock rate ?

 

On the DSD/DoP, is there any benefit of Mutec conversion vs doing it in the s/w, like Foobar, Jriver ? ?

[Dev]

So my DSD Dac supports 192Khz and DSD128. For DSD/Dop conversion, I would select the clock out as 176.4. Does this mean when I play a 192K PCM, the output is 176.4K ?

[Dev]

OK. At the moment, the MC-3+USB needs to be programmed so that DSD OR PCM are sent from the computer. If the signal is DoP/DSD, the output should be 176.4kHz. If a PCM signal is sent when programmed for DSD, there's no output.

 

Choices are to send DSD/DoP all the time and let the MC-3+USB decode to PCM, or the user changes manually if there's PCM content.

 

Now there's new firmware in the wings that the MC-3+USB will switch auto between the two, but when, I think it's close.

 

I've got so used to sending DSD, there's no delays when switching since everything is DSD128 to the Mutec. Your player software will be the final determinant of how that's setup.

 

The Mutec does not sample rate convert PCM at all, whatever goes in comes out. Mutec have some very good SRC devices if you want to convert using hardware methods. Or if you lean to software developers, they will tell you software is better, up to you.

 

Thanks One and a Half. I see what you are saying - the firmware to auto-switch is in the works. I mostly use Jstreamer/Minimserver and miniserver can convert DSD files to wav format on the fly and not the other way round, i.e. pcm to Dop. When I use the Yggy, I only send PCM signals like this and it could also work with the DS Dac as well. The question for me is to determine if the DS plays DSD files better using Dop or from converted to PCM. I guess I can do that experiment without the Mutec in between.

[Dev]

anybody used the Mutec with the uRendu yet ? it will interesting to see if Mutec provides additional benefits over the custom designed h/w which is specifically targeted to solve some of the usb drawbacks.

[Dev]

Hey that's really cool, tomorrow is July and DSD512 is also a nice bonus.

 

Just curious - firmware update will support DSD512 ? At what pcm sample rate conversion ?

[Dev]

That's DSD512 was the bait...

 

 

Understood but I am trying to understand whats the point moving to 512 ? AES is limited to 192k and there is not a single native 512 content available. The only option is to up-sampling it in the s/w (like HQP). Then the Mutec would be able to re-clock DSD which means it has to down-sample to max 192k. So you up-sample and then finally down-sample in the end. Why need this jugglery ?

[Dev]

Even if the source is Redbook, upsampling to DSD128++ as far as the DAC has enough speed, is primarily to:

 

Use the least burdensome filter for the DAC to have an easy, easy job to convert D to A

Push the DSD noise way up the chain well above the audio band some 100MHz and keep going

 

The big plus to a very high sample rate is that there's no more delays in the switching of different rates that the DAC has to cope with, the rate never changes to the DAC, the upsampling is worked out by the player software, like HQPlayer, does a great job. CPU limits apply.

 

More reading here.

 

Ideally, the DAC input should be I2S and be done with it, but it's not a standard interface. The conversion from DSD to S/PDIF is a format conversion principally, the sampling rate will also have to adjust.

S/PDIF has lower packet noise to the DAC, so for the moment, it's the way jugglery is. Please treat S/PDIF to equal the coax and the XLR versions.

 

Interesting and thanks for the explanation. I presume the benefit is also DAC dependent. For example, the PSA DS DAC up samples everything to 10x DSD internally and it does have I2S (actually two). For some time earlier I had looked out for USB to I2S bridge with a good re-clocker doing DSD128 but couldn’t find one. I think the XMOS XU208 just released most probably will have this capability till DSD256.

 

Does the current Mutec 3+ USB h/w has the capability to support DSD512 ?