CAPS vs M50 from NAD choice

[bubusia]

Welcome

 

Ive decided to ask for some advice. It has to do with the choice of either one of the CAPS or m50

Im a happy user of SBT/edo along with M51. Ive come to the point at which I would like to improve the sound quality of the source I use. Ive heard m50 at my friend’s and I must admit I was really impressed with the improvement over the SBT/edo(he used that duo too). Now the question is:

Would I get the same/similar results with one of the CAPS servers? If so which one would do and how should it be configured for the s.quality. best results?

 

One might ask why not go for m50 if i liked it. The answer is simple. I d like to spend less and get the most of what's possible.

Im not too skillful with computers either. So if I decided to go for one of the CAPs, I d go the easy way and purchase one from SGC.

 

thx for advice

[Mike Rubin]

I can't say anything about the CAPS, as I never have used one, but I have looked into the NAD and have ruled it out for my own purposes, for these reasons: (1) It does not offer a USB audio out, which means that a number of USB-oriented DACs either can't be used at all or can't be used through their optimized inputs. (2) It may be dangerous for data safety in that it supports only one external hard drive, which is needed for storage, so it appears there is no way to back up from the storage drive to a redundant one. This may be because NAD offers and urges use of its own hideously expensive M52 Music Vault, which has RAID capability, so it may believe that that's all the backup coverage anyone ever would need. I've tried to verify this with NAD customer service, which thus far has not responded meaningfully to two inquiries (another reason in itself to be wary of this product), but nothing in the manual suggests that the data drive connected to the USB port even can be backed up over the network (a lot slower on wifi than backing up locally, in my extensive experience with these types of devices). If drives can't be backed up on the device itself or over the network, the only way your data will be safe is to remove the drive from the unit, take it to a computer, and then backup to a device connected to the computer. (3) The device streams from Windows Media servers but NOT from UPnP/DLNA servers, which effectively eliminates the ability to stream from NAS devices. In my own case, I store uncompressed music locally on a server connected to my audio system, but I stream lots of compressed stuff from a NAS in my basement. From what I can gather from the manual and the product reviews I've seen, I could not stream from my NAS as I do now.

 

These apparent deficiencies distress me, as there's much that's attractive about the device and I gather that its sound quality is great. Even though I am finding that, when I replace my Red Wine modded Olive/HiFidelio server imminently, I will have to make compromises with every server on the market of which I am aware, the M50's apparent deficiencies take this one off my short list as, to me, they go to basic functionality. (I say "perceived defects" because I can't get information from NAD or a review that contradicts what I concluded after reading the manual and reviews; if I am wrong about any of this, I'd love to be corrected.)

[dpaws]

I can't say anything about the CAPS, as I never have used one, but I have looked into the NAD and have ruled it out for my own purposes, for these reasons:

(1) It does not offer a USB audio out, which means that a number of USB-oriented DACs either can't be used at all or can't be used through their optimized inputs.

(2) It may be dangerous for data safety in that it supports only one external hard drive, which is needed for storage, so it appears there is no way to back up from the storage drive to a redundant one.

(3) The device streams from Windows Media servers but NOT from UPnP/DLNA servers, which effectively eliminates the ability to stream from NAS devices.

 

I have played with the CAPS type server but I am now an owner of the NAD M50. Hopefully my decision making process may shed some light for some others.

 

1) USB outs seem to be the latest thing, or at least the direction some of the hi-fi industry is going in simply to accommodate music data that only a PC can handle. However, there are a number of industry leading gurus who prefer the sound from a well implemented SPDIF/AES connection. I had fitted a (very high quality) USB input to my amp and invested in auxiliary power supplies for both the USB output card and the USB cable itself.

 

Somehow the keep it simple philosophy suits me better, and I haven't detected one ounce of difference with regard to my emotional involvement with the music since reverting to an AES connection.

 

2) It depends on how and what you connect to the M50 as to how well protected your files are. I would strongly recommend the M52 as a fail safe storage solution. Personally I use a dual disk external harddrive enclosure with built in RAID 1 which connects via USB. This drive is visible on my Windows network and the contents are backed up automatically by my Apple Time Capsule. At present it holds 2 x 480GB SSD drives and is fed by its own external power supply so as not to feed crud back in through the USB bus.

3) Your storage / streaming solution may exist in the form of the Bluesound Vault, a NAD compatible product, made by NAD but marketed under a different name. Personally I selected the M50 as being a music source that I could enjoy when all of the network was down, so by utilising a USB drive (albeit a big one) I could bypass any streaming interruptions, particularly as my collection is becoming more heavily focused on larger pre-upsampled music files and HD downloads.

 

The majority of my casual listening has now reverted to Spotify, negating the need for creating playlists.

 

In use the M50 needs a couple of firmware updates before it's really up and running at full tilt, there's a few residual niggles. However, it does sound very good indeed. Hopefully the music streaming services will soon include the likes of Spotify so I can at last remove my iPad dock (SPDIF) from the rack.

 

Maybe the most important thing is that the NAD is a plug and play solution. With the DIY server I couldn't relax without wondering if this or that setting was correct, whether my chosen music playback software sounded as good as the next one, the buffer size etc etc. In the end I didn't bother replacing the screws on the casing lid!

 

Now it's as simple as sit-play-enjoy! Hope that helps...

 

(BTW shop around for the best price for NAD Masters products, certainly here in Europe there's some leverage to be had between the various distributors)

[dpaws]

Maybe the most important thing is that the NAD is a plug and play solution. With the DIY server I couldn't relax without wondering if this or that setting was correct, whether my chosen music playback software sounded as good as the next one, the buffer size etc etc. In the end I didn't bother replacing the screws on the casing lid! Now it's as simple as sit-play-enjoy! Hope that helps...

 

I've just rediscovered a great quote from fellow CA member Beetlemania

 

"As I've written before, computer audio is a really bad idea. It combines audiophile nervosa with computer geek compulsiveness"

 

Certainly was 100% true in my case I'm afraid....

[bubusia]

As for the sound only, how would you compare your experience of caps vs nad 50?

[dpaws]

As for the sound only, how would you compare your experience of caps vs nad 50?

 

Well, strictly speaking my DIY hi-fi server wasn't a CAPS, but it was built along the same guidelines with some slightly different components, the passive cooling, SOTM USB3 card and SSD drives all featured. I tried both Linux (Vortexbox/LMS) and Win8 trial edition, both with JPlay but never A/B'd the two pieces of gear on the rack at the same time in a serious manner.

 

I don't recall anything that made me sit up and take notice, in my system it didn't seem to make any difference. I use both the Stereophile and Chesky Audiophile test disks whenever I change a component but I don't recall any lifting of veils or any other sonic revelations...

 

It's not a low quality system either, the M2 is known for being highly resolving and detailed. I'm sure if the two were A/B'd there would be some slight differences, but nothing that springs to mind in isolation.

 

Be aware though, my system is quite a different animal to a normal DAC, it may just be that my system is fairly tolerant to any jitter on a digital signal input.

 

Sorry I can't be more helpful, but I can only suggest that your findings from comparing the two will most certainly depend on the next item along the audio chain and how well the preferred digital input option has been implemented.

 

From a build perspective the M50 is excellent, a Linux based custom built motherboard without any DC-DC converters and no superfluous operating system baggage to work around... It does use a SMPS though, but I'm sure NAD have thought about that and used an ultra low noise version (Linn/Chord do the same) there's nothing that leads me to suspect that the M50 has been built down to a price in that respect.

 

The rack components are all fed power from a PS Audio PPP re-generator, it is also possible that this component helped to level the playing field, but that would only be speculation. Not so much for the power being fed to the device, but from the isolation between components from the inevitable crud being fed back down the power cable. In this respect I'd expect the NAD M50 to be considerably cleaner than any PC build - unfortunately I no longer own a 'scope so I can't illustrate this.

 

IMHO one of the reasons for people preferring to use laptops on battery power is not because the battery itself is superior (you still have onboard dc-dc conversion and a higher supply impedance) but because there's no cable for the crud (noise) to travel down and affect other components on the rack...

[bubusia]

thx for the observations

 

Last night I had a chance to audition m50/51 and I must admit I was impressed by the clarity of the sound. I think Im gonna give it a shot. I had no chance to compare to smth like CAPs or a well configured PC though. Anyway the sound was really really good.

[MikeJazz]

Well, strictly speaking my DIY hi-fi server wasn't a CAPS, but it was built along the same guidelines with some slightly different components, the passive cooling, SOTM USB3 card and SSD drives all featured. I tried both Linux (Vortexbox/LMS) and Win8 trial edition, both with JPlay but never A/B'd the two pieces of gear on the rack at the same time in a serious manner.

 

I don't recall anything that made me sit up and take notice, in my system it didn't seem to make any difference. I use both the Stereophile and Chesky Audiophile test disks whenever I change a component but I don't recall any lifting of veils or any other sonic revelations...

 

It's not a low quality system either, the M2 is known for being highly resolving and detailed. I'm sure if the two were A/B'd there would be some slight differences, but nothing that springs to mind in isolation.

 

Be aware though, my system is quite a different animal to a normal DAC, it may just be that my system is fairly tolerant to any jitter on a digital signal input.

 

Sorry I can't be more helpful, but I can only suggest that your findings from comparing the two will most certainly depend on the next item along the audio chain and how well the preferred digital input option has been implemented.

 

From a build perspective the M50 is excellent, a Linux based custom built motherboard without any DC-DC converters and no superfluous operating system baggage to work around... It does use a SMPS though, but I'm sure NAD have thought about that and used an ultra low noise version (Linn/Chord do the same) there's nothing that leads me to suspect that the M50 has been built down to a price in that respect.

 

The rack components are all fed power from a PS Audio PPP re-generator, it is also possible that this component helped to level the playing field, but that would only be speculation. Not so much for the power being fed to the device, but from the isolation between components from the inevitable crud being fed back down the power cable. In this respect I'd expect the NAD M50 to be considerably cleaner than any PC build - unfortunately I no longer own a 'scope so I can't illustrate this.

 

IMHO one of the reasons for people preferring to use laptops on battery power is not because the battery itself is superior (you still have onboard dc-dc conversion and a higher supply impedance) but because there's no cable for the crud (noise) to travel down and affect other components on the rack...

 

Hi dpaws, your experience of simplifying from a custom player is very interesting...

I just would like to understand if the M50 is capable of be served by a NAS...even thought there is nothing indicating a DLNA/UPNP service...maybe still it's possible to read from a network drive? like other Linux based players...

 

Maybe you can shed a light in this...

 

Thanks!

[Audio_ELF]

Just something quirky - is it me of do the M51 DAC and M52 "Music Vault" use a different case style to the M50 and the rest of the Master Series? Or fo they match in the flesh?

[dpaws]

Hi dpaws, your experience of simplifying from a custom player is very interesting...

I just would like to understand if the M50 is capable of be served by a NAS...even thought there is nothing indicating a DLNA/UPNP service...maybe still it's possible to read from a network drive? like other Linux based players...

 

Maybe you can shed a light in this...Thanks!

 

Hi Mike - Not that I know of... I'm sure that it can't read from and take, if that makes sense, but maybe it can receive from a device pushing music in its direction, and in this respect the Bluesound range of products would be the place to look Bluesound - HiFi for a wireless generation - the vault in particular.

 

As far as I'm aware there's no NAD server software that sits on a PC/Mac and pushes in the way that LMS did for Squeezebox. As yet... that is, the M50 would appear to be the flagship for a new direction for NAD who themselves have suggested that there's a roadmap for development. I just wish they'd start up a forum so thoughts and ideas could gather momentum. The Customer Service people are good, but there's nothing like having a discussion

 

Thinking back to Squeezebox days, wouldn't the NAS need to hold software that pushes? Ahhh maybe you're thinking about pushing from a DLNA server on the NAS... Hmmm

 

(My apologies for my non techie way of thinking about networks, but for me clients are people who pay me money!)

[dpaws]

Just something quirky - is it me of do the M51 DAC and M52 "Music Vault" use a different case style to the M50 and the rest of the Master Series? Or do they match in the flesh?

 

No, you're right - they do look a little strange - some lines sort of tie in, but I think the designer went a little far!! Maybe it's an "arty" thing, I never did get arty things or arty types lol.

[dpaws]

thx for the observations

 

Last night I had a chance to audition m50/51 and I must admit I was impressed by the clarity of the sound. I think Im gonna give it a shot. I had no chance to compare to smth like CAPs or a well configured PC though. Anyway the sound was really really good.

 

It does, and the M2 is even better I'm afraid! Lets face it, if it said Levinson on the front they'd have sold out of all production but for my generation NAD was the first serious kit you ever bought and then eventually moved on to more exotic brands. There does seem some good momentum behind NAD at the moment, both with their Masters series and also with the rest of the range, including the airplaying VISO etc.

 

As much as I want to own Levinson or have a pair of glowing 845's to keep me snug on an evening, I can justify neither in terms of audio performance - the classic head/heart dilemma.

 

The only concession I've made is a switch from silver to copper loudspeaker cables, just to "add" a touch of warmth (or loss of detail I suppose) because the M2 is so neutral/honest/accurate. With silver I could never quite drift off to the music, whilst the copper brings a hint of Merlot to the presentation, if that makes sense...

 

There's no reason for the same logic not to apply for interconnects on the M51, the Audioquest Anacondas in XLR spring to mind from a year or two back as being a perfect match on paper, wonderful weight and prat, full of energy like a giddy spaniel puppy - again, it would depend on what item was next in the chain...

[Audio_ELF]

No, you're right - they do look a little strange - some lines sort of tie in, but I think the designer went a little far!! Maybe it's an "arty" thing, I never did get arty things or arty types lol.

I kind of assumed that the M51 was showing the direction that the newer Master series components would take - a kind of evolution of the earlier design, then the M50 came out with the original design.

 

Its almost as if they just used whatever case they had in stock!

[dpaws]

Connectivity options for streaming or local drive may be dictated by personal circumstance, as they were for me.

 

With two teenagers in the house who both love to Skype their mates or run themselves ragged with Minecraft (haven't a clue, overheard it somewhere) then the demands on the network became too high to avoid the dropouts - which drive me nuts! - hence my new love and respect for the humble USB drive!

 

Spotify and streaming works very well (lower res 320) but for the serious sessions and HD source material I revert to the drive.

 

I guess the Bryston owners must all be in the same age range too!

[dpaws]

I kind of assumed that the M51 was showing the direction that the newer Master series components would take - a kind of evolution of the earlier design, then the M50 came out with the original design.

 

Its almost as if they just used whatever case they had in stock!

 

The designs certainly start from the same place, but with the limited real estate available for the extra (darker) front panel extension due to the shallow component depth I'm sure they'd have been faced with a tough decision-I'd love to have been a fly on the wall at that meeting - tough call!!!

 

Certainly the often photographed combo of M50/M52/M2 doesn't offend me at all, it has a symmetry which appeals to my autistic traits!!!

[Audio_ELF]

Connectivity options for streaming or local drive may be dictated by personal circumstance, as they were for me.

 

With two teenagers in the house who both love to Skype their mates or run themselves ragged with Minecraft (haven't a clue, overheard it somewhere) then the demands on the network became too high to avoid the dropouts - which drive me nuts! - hence my new love and respect for the humble USB drive!

 

Spotify and streaming works very well (lower res 320) but for the serious sessions and HD source material I revert to the drive.

 

I guess the Bryston owners must all be in the same age range too!

If you have a managed switch you should be able to segment your network to keep all the audio traffic away from Minecraft and Skype...

[dpaws]

And there lies the point - I understand USB drives, and no-on whinges when I use one as it doesn't take up "their" bandwidth..

 

I tried altering the QoS settings but then no-one was happy!!! USB works well for me as for casual listening I revert to Spotify.

 

There seems little point of playing a 24/192 HD download in the bedroom whilst pottering around the house when a scaled down 320kbps version via Spotify sounds just fine from a distance (and, for an mp3, surprisingly good close up!)

 

My Spotify Premium account has also meant that I've archived about 80% of my music collection - all the compilations and life's journey discs - leaving only the music that takes me off to a different place... plus anything new that I discover on Spotify that seems to deserve a more serious listen.

[dpaws]

Mike - You've probably found this already?

 

"Bluesound does not support UPnP at this time but Bluesound is able to connect to Windows, Mac, Linux and most NAS systems using conventional file sharing methods. Please see the Troubleshooting section of our FAQs (or Online Owner’s Manual)." from Bluesound - HiFi for a wireless generation

 

...which most probably means you can copy / paste files to a network shared hard drive but you can't stream... at the moment...

 

Some prices here Bluesound - Welkom bij Wifimedia. Maak kennis met de toekomst!

 

It's NOT cheap gear by any means, but I expect the playback quality will be excellent given the technology behind it and it offers 24/192 file compatibility which Sonos must be hating...

 

Streaming 24/192 without glitches may be a different issue though, I'd certainly revert to Powerline adaptors - Meridian Audio aren't daft, they've limited their streaming to 24/96 for good reason...

[dpaws]

There's some relevant forum chit-chat here: Sonos vs. Bluesound - Sonos Forums intermixed with the usual blah blah...

[dpaws]

I think Im gonna give it a shot.

If you need assistance with a good price just PM... I can pass you onto the dealer that sorted mine out for me...

 

...but unless you're desperate I'd wait until the next firmware revision which will sort out some digital clicks between tracks and also the network sharing facility of the USB storage device attached to the rear panel (that's pretending to be a NAD M52)

[bubusia]

If you need assistance with a good price just PM... I can pass you onto the dealer that sorted mine out for me...

 

...but unless you're desperate I'd wait until the next firmware revision which will sort out some digital clicks between tracks and also the network sharing facility of the USB storage device attached to the rear panel (that's pretending to be a NAD M52)

 

 

thx a lot for helping hand

 

Actually, I hope the dealer Im in touch with will offer a good price point, if not I will ask for the one you have in mind.

Coming back to the sound, I listened to the whole family set up with m2 in line and I loved its precision and neutral nature, great sound stage, and in fact great timbre(not clinical at all). Then I switched to my m51(m50)/densen 300xs combo. The sound was slightly less precise but gained sort of tubelike softness with good imaging and still nice precision factor. The connection was ase/hdmi-that is m51 connected to m50. As for Nasa the friend I visited for the audition just uses Nasa, so I think you dont really need the expensive vault. If I were to to compare to other top notch gear I heard at my friend's, I would have to say that what I heard on that night was the best sound ever(and We compared to such likes as accuphase 560/accu 78 and some other pieces of top quality)

[dpaws]

You're welcome - Well the M51 certainly gives you added versatility against the M2 which is very much a committed approach - the recent trend of new active speakers (welcome back!!) should certainly give you plenty of performance and pricing options as and when you're ready to move beyond the Denson. Interesting that we both enjoy the NAD Masters sound with a hint of warmth - but I'm grateful that we have the control to fine tune that sound rather than having a warm sounding source like the Meridian gear... once that detail and resolution is lost you can never get it back!

 

The M51 also has the HDMI, so if you connected an Apple TV3 via HDMI you'd be able to airplay/stream Spotify and the like, it's certainly a useful piece of kit to have around. There are a few guys on the headphone forums who swear by the M51 with a dedicated headphone amplifier so I can never see the M51 becoming redundant.

[dpaws]

Wow! The NAD M51 has been given the A+ rating in the latest Stereophile Recommended Components list 2013

 

(to see the rest there's a free app/download from the iTunes store for those who linger on the dark side...)

[alehel]

I know this is an old thread, but I got a bit of interesting info from a member of staff at Hifiklubben in Stavanger. He claimed that people working on bluesound (Hifiklubben have worked quite closely with them on developing Bluesound) have said that eventually the M50 will become compatible with the bluesound system. He used the word compatible rather than integrated with because M50 will still be marketed as a NAD product and not a Bluesound product, but apparently they have said that the M50 will use the same software and work with other Bluesound products the way you would expect the other Bluesound products to do. If you look at the controll software for iOS they are already quite similar for these prodcuts. Would be interesting if this happens. You could have the M50 for your main listening, and have a Bluesound Pulse in your bedroom and have them working together. With my budget though, I'll probably get a Bluesound powernode and have it pull music from my NAS like I now do with my Sonos Play: 5.

 

Also, if you live in a country where you can get a Wimp subscription (a Spotify competitor) you will soon be able to stream music in FLAC to your Bluesound. Hifiklubben had access to an early preview of Wimp with FLAC and it worked well when they showed it to me on the Powernode. Music loaded just as fast as I'm used to with Spotify with no drop outs. Wimp have also stated that they are doing internal tests with 24/96 streaming, but they have not said what platforms this will be available on or when subscribers can expect to get access to this. FLAC is expected to become available after the summer.

[comfortably_numb]

Hi alehel,

I too have visited hifiklubben (sweden) several times... I am considering the M50 but its too much cash to throw just on a streamer+Server.

Have you done any listeneing tests between the blusound+NAS combo vs M50?

I believe the blusound also has an internal server inside so you can just plug in a Harddrive directly and still manage to use the control app...